best of and between class comparo

[jeffgoddin]

got 319 of the cars in a list for testing

I'm looking at displacement per weight as the main category (relatively small engines shouldn't be as good as relatively heavy ones), also drivetrain and stock weight to power ratio (adjusted how I do.)

I've just finished the first round of testing 102 cars that can be tuned to 6.5kg/hp. Add sports suspension, hard slicks, race flywheel, and sufficient power, then go for a fast lap at Seattle Short.

A lot of interesting racing! Some real surprises!

Top 10:

1:03.589 Primera GT '95
1:03.614 MX-5 V-Special '90
1:03.738 406 3.0 V6 Coupe
1:03.840 Puma 1.7 Zetec-SE VCT
1:03.808 FTO GR '94
1:03.836 A3 1.8T 20V '96
1:03.836 Vectra Gsi 2.5 V6
1:03.939 Prelude SiR '96
1:03.984 FTO GR '97
1:03.986 Punto GT


Certainly there were "classes" of cars that were better than most. MX-5's(except the '98's), BMW's, Silvias.

The 3000GT ('92 and SR '95) were uncontrollable heaps, and the Cougar wasn't much better as the big disappointments. Civics were generally weak.

From the smallest displacement class, 1.25 cc's per kg, the Micra Super Turbo is the quickest while coming in 78th of 102 cars. Meh.

From the 1.25-1.50 cc per kg class, the Punto is quickest and 10th overall, quite the overachiever!

The A3 and Prelude SiR '96 were two from the 1.5-1.61 cc per kg category that made the top ten overall, so extra kudos to them.

And the 406 and Vectra made the top 10 partly thanks to leading the class of 1.75-2.25 cc/kg engines.

1.61 to 1.75 occupied the top two and 5 of the top 10 spots.

The MR-S '99 was the best MR, a respectable 19th of 102, FF's dominated the top 10 but an FR made 2nd, 11th, and 13th, 14th, 15th. The best 4WD was the 323 GT-X '92 at 27th, but there weren't many MR's and even fewer 4WD's in this low power test. Overall so far then, FF > FR > MR > 4WD.

And the best body style is evidently sedan!

Edit: Strike that, heavier cars performed slightly better than expected on average. Maybe due to the 6 or so Kei cars I tested dragging down the other lighter cars.

Also, hard to get my data in here, but here's the full ordered list of car's I tested, best to last by lap time at Seattle Short.


Primera GT '95 (at 1180kg and 176hp)
MX-5 V-Special '90 (at 990kg and 155hp)
406 3.0 V6 Coupe (at 1458kg and 202hp)
Puma 1.7 Zetec-SE VCT
FTO GR '94
A3 1.8T 20V '96
Vectra Gsi 2.5 V6
Prelude SiR '96
FTO GR '97
Punto GT
Silvia Spec S Aero '99
Tigra 1.6i
323ti Compact E36 '98
MX-5 S-Special '92
200SX Type S '96
Astra Sri 2.0i 16V
Barchetta
306 S16
MR-S S Edition '99
Silvia Spec S '99
MX-5 '89
328ci Coupe E46
320ci Coupe E46 '99
Silvia Q's 1800cc '88
Prelude 2.0i '91
106 Rallye
323 GT-X '92
Megane 2.0 16V Coupe
Golf IV 2.3 V5
200SX Q's '95
MGF 1.8i VVC
MX-5 '93
145 2.0 Cloverleaf
MR2 1600G-Limited
Integra SiR-G '95
MX-5 S-Special R-Limited '93 Turbo tuned
Lexus IS200
Stratus ES
156 2.0 TS 16V
Laguna V6
Primera '98
200SX Q's Aero '97
Xsara 1.8i 16V VTS Exclusive
323ci Coupe E46 '99
Golf IV GTI 1.8T
MX-5 1.6 S Package '98
Golf IV V6
Sunny VZ-R '98
206 S16
Lupo 1.4
Focus Ghia 2.0i Zetec
GTV 2.0 TS 16V
CRX del sol Pro.3 Mugen
Primera GT '90
Neon ACR
Neon R/T
Galant VR-G '99
MR2 G-Limited '96
CLK 200 Sport
New Beetle GLS 2.0L
Mark II Tourer S '96
Ka
Elan S2 '90
Levin/Trueno GT-Apex Type I '83
CRX del sol 1.6VTi '95
MX-5 A-Spec
MX-5 1.8 VS '98
Galant VR-G Touring '96
Celica GT-R '91
Mondeo Ghia X 2.5i 24V
Delta HF Integrale
CR-X Pro 2 Mugen
Levin/Trueno GT-Apex Type II '85
Demio A-Spec '97
Y 1.2 16V
Xantia 3.0i V6 Exclusive
Civic Ferio Mugen
Micra Super Turbo '89
Focus Zetec 1.8i - NA tuned
323F Coupe 2000 Type-R '93 aka Lantis
106 S16
Golf IV GTI
Mini Cooper 1.3i
Civic VTi '98
2000 GT
m13 Stage II
Focus Zetec 1.8i - Turbo tuned
155 2.0 TS 16V
Saxo 1.6i VTS
Starlet 3 Door Turbo S '87
Cougar 2.5i 24V or Mercury
Sirion X4
Yaris
Capcino
Opti Aerodown Beex '98
600 Sporting
Vivio RX-RA aka Vivio '97
3000GT SR '95 (at 1650kg and 217hp)
AZ-1 A Spec
Beat Mugen
Minica Dangan ZZ '90
Cervo Mode SR-4 '90 (at 690kg and 115hp)

 

[Ravicale]

Poor Cervo Mode SR-4

 

[jeffgoddin]

Well, I'm only testing about half the cars. Many sedans, wagons, and kei cars got left off the list, otherwise I'm sure the Cervo wouldn't be last.

Making good progress with the second round, starting to test cars that start out with a little more power (up to 5kg per hp).

 

[Falcon787B]

Definitely credit to you my friend. I wouldn't have the patience to embark on such an ambitious test, so kudos 👍

I'm intregued by some of the results, although the fact that FFs are dominating isn't so surprising, as I feel this is where most FF cars would reside - you won't get many in the higher performance catagories, simply because there's only so much power FFs can handle (up to about 240hp I think) so most cars built with more horsepower than that were FR or another drivetrain

 

[jeffgoddin]

Alright, got the 2nd round done, 126 cars tested.

Before I get into it, just want to say, if you see cars that you think should be higher or lower on the list, feel free to say so.

5kg/hp tuning, sports suspension, medium slicks, close or superclose gears if needed (almost all ran close gears), triple clutch, race flywheel, and carbon driveshaft, stage 1 weight reduction.

Note this is medium power, many great cars start with more than this, like most RX-7's, Skylines, etc. Still enough power to win 40% of GT2's events.

At SSR5, very long final straight, multiple hairpins, plus some high speed cornering = very balanced track for testing. Should evenly reward power and handling.

The results:
1:27.411 300ZX Ver.S Turbo '94, 272hp
1:27.594 300ZX 2 seater TT '98, 271hp
1:27.757 Supra '96, 261hp
1:27.826 200SX '98 (K's), 238 hp
1:27.926 200SX '95 (Silvia S14 K's), 237hp
1:27.936 200SX Type X '96 small spoiler, 238hp
1:27.987 300ZX Ver.S '94, 261hp
1:28.110 Supra '97
RX-7 Infini III '90
Supra Twinturbo R '91
1:28.206 200SX Type X '96 big spoiler
1:28.378 Supra Turbo '93
Silvia K's 2000cc '91
S2000
200SX K's Aero '98
Lexus SC400
1:28.587 FTO GPX '97
1:28.718 Pt Spyder
Supra SZ-R '97
320ci Coupe E46 '99
Aristo 3.0V '91
Almera/Pulsar VZ-R N1 '97
Soarer 2.5GT-T VVT-i '96
Prelude SiR/2.2 VTi '98
Atlantique 300 bi-turbo
300ZX 2 seater '98
1:28.980 Altezza RS200
Sileighty
FTO GP Version R '97
MX-5 C-Spec
323ti Compact E36 '98
Eclipse GS-T
Vectra Gsi 2.5 V6
406 3.0 V6 Coupe
328ci Coupe E46
A3 1.8T 20V '96
FTO GR '94
Accord Type R
Prelude 2.0i '91
FTO GR '97
Civic Vti '93
Silvia Spec S '99
1:29.469 840ci Coupe
Primera GT '95
Prelude SiR-S Spec '98
Mirage Cyborg ZR '97
S4 2.7TT V6 '97
Prelude SiR '96
SLK 230 Kompressor
Prelude Type S '96
Astra Sri 2.0i 16V
Delta HF Integrale Collezione
Cosmo Type E
Prelude 2.2 VTEC '91
Cosmo Type S
Silvia Spec S Aero '99
MR Spider '96
Prelude Type S Mugen
CLK 320 Sport
Delta HF Integrale Evoluzione
Mark II Tourer S '96
Punto GT
Tigra 1.6i
1:29.912 Lexus SC300/Aristo S300 NA tuned
MR2 GT-S '96
Celica '96
MX-5 V-Special '90
FTO GPX '94
S3 1.8T 20V '99
Coupe 2.0 200 Turbo
MX-5 S-Special '92
Integra Type R '95
Tom's T020
Skyline GTS-R R31 '87
CR-X VTEC '91
Chaser Tourer S
306 S16
MR2 G-Limited '98
TT 1.8T Quattro
323 GT-X '92
MX-5 '89
Corona Exiv 200GT
Integra SiR-G '98
200SX Type S '96
MX-5 B-Spec
Barchetta
166 3.0 V6 24V
A4 2.8 quattro
Silvia Q's 1800cc '88
CR-X del sol 1.6VTi '93
Galant VR-4 '96
1:30.494 Celica GT-Four '95
Mirage Asti RX-R '98
Megane 2.0 16V Coupe
Mirage Cyborg R '92
323 GT-R '92
Integra Type R Mugen
3000GT MR '95
GTV 3.0 V6 24V
Celica SS-II Mechanical Version
Corolla Levin AE111 Tom's T111
Puma 1.7 Zetec-SE VCT
Intrepid ES
Civic Vti '95
Elise Sport 135
Taurus SHO '99
1:30.990 MR-S S Edition '99
Civic Type R '98
Sprinter Trueno/Levin BZ-R '98
106 Rallye
Mirage Asti RX '96
Civic Type R Mugen
Sunny '91/Pulsar GTI-R
1:31.302 Civic Type R '97
1:31.588 3000GT SR '99
Celica GT-Four RC '91
SVX '95
Galant VR-4 '99
1:31.830 Elise 111S
1:32.037 156 2.5 V6 24V NA tuned
SVX S4 '95
Sprinter Trueno/Levin BZ-G '96
1:32.239 Tom's Angel T01
1:32.727 Elise
1:33.070 Galant Super VR-4 '98
1:33.471 Integra Type R 98 Spec


Granted, I was almost done when I realized that raising the Dampers on the 4WD's to like 8 front/6 rear improved handling considerably.

Clearly, FR's rule here. FF's and MR's are basically tied, though if you had to call it perhaps FF's. 4WD's still not looking good, highest one the S4 at 47th/126.

Most of the best performers were in the 1.751 to 2.250 cc per kg category for engine displacement per vehicle weight (up from the last round where 1.611 to 1.750 dominated the leaderboard.) The 200SX '98 (K's) was the best from the 1.501 to 1.610 category, though the S2000 farther down the list is also notable. The 200SX '95 was the best from 1.611 to 1.750 category. The 320ci and Almera/Pulsar VZ-R N1 are the best of the pipsqueaks from the 1.251 to 1.500 cc/kg category. So far, engine size doesn't conquer all, as the best result from the 2.251 and over class was the SC400 in 16th, Atlantique 300 next.

The best FF was the FTO GPX '97, 17th overall, and FTO's, a couple Preludes, the VZ-R N1, Eclipse, Vectra, 406 Coupe, A3, Accord Type R, and Civic Vti '93 all did pretty well for themselves.

The best MR was the Pt Spyder, 18th overall, with the Atlantique 300 bi-turbo just 0.242 behind it in 25th.

The winner of the previous round came in a disappointing 44/126. The 320ci moved up from 23rd in the previous round to 20th in this round, best out of all the cars from the last round I tested here (top 40 from that.)

MX-5's moved down quite a bit in this round, though the C-Spec did fairly well in 30th/126.

In general, Elises sucked, the Sport 135 being the least terrible in 105/126.

Civics and Levin/Truenos generally stunk. The Celica '96 is the best one, who knew?

 

[Baron Blitz Red]

Wow, a bit of racing, eh? I've been back and forth on the list a few times now, reading it as I remember the cars... lol. All I really want to know is how the 🤬 did you ever get the Barchetta to run faster than the Tom's Angel???

My memory must be getting bad with age...

Have a good one

 

[jeffgoddin]

Wow, a bit of racing, eh? I've been back and forth on the list a few times now, reading it as I remember the cars... lol. All I really want to know is how the 🤬 did you ever get the Barchetta to run faster than the Tom's Angel???

My memory must be getting bad with age...

Have a good one

Ha ha, yeah, just a bit of racing. Maybe 100 hours worth over the past 5 weeks. Perhaps even obsessively in between farming duties, held back only by the risk of repetitive stress injury. And I'm a little over half done.

The Angel is just too light and can't get up enough speed down the main drag, and handles like a crab without professional suspension options. The Barchetta is a surprisingly good car, maybe the best Fiat.

But yeah, I have a rule I use to make it more fair for light weight cars. I say tune to 5 kg/hp, but I really mean 5 kg/hp at 1200kg. More or less than 1200kg, increase or decrease the kg/hp goal by 1% per 40kg. So, an 800kg car, 400kg less than 1200kg, would have a kg/hp goal 10% less than the goal of 5, or 4.5 kg/hp. So instead of 800/5=160hp, you'd tune to 800/4.5=178hp. Not to get too fancy, but this is a linear relationship (y=3x + 6, for example,) but the theory behind this rule is cubic (y=2x^3+5x for example,) and while a straight line can closely approximate the cubic rule, it's not going to do a good job as you get farther away from your reference point (1200kg). In fact, both heavier and lighter cars could probably use a little bit of a boost, though this rule is still pretty good for cars between 1000kg and 1400kg or so.

Also, lighter cars clearly don't have the traction that heavier cars do with the same tires, nothing we can do about this.

Another rule I use is that for a 10% increase or decrease in power, you decrease or increase your lap time by 1%. So when I need to tune to 256.7hp and the closest I can get is 259hp, I increase the lap time by 0.23%, figuring that the extra 2.3hp I have will make me 0.23% faster than I should be.

Rounds to come:

Red Rock at 3.5 kg/hp, with soft slicks, semi-race suspension, stage 2 weight reduction, all transmission upgrades. Still with semi-race suspension, handling is a reflection of base car spring rates, since sport and semi-race just multiply the stock value by a fixed amount. Certainly an engine test here more than anything else, but good exit speeds from corners is also highly rewarded. So tough to max it through the esses after the first big left. Most of the great cars start in this round. Already have 50+ cars tested here, S2000 fastest so far.

Trial Mountain at 2.5 kg/hp, now with supersoft, pro suspension, stage 3 weight reduction, brakes, and BBC plus tranny upgrades. This one is tough, control is key, so many corners it's impossible to get a clean run in a car that won't behave. Add RUF's etc in this round. Only 5 tested so far, Atlantique 300 best so far.

Laguna Seca at 1.8 kg/hp, now with Race Mod and everything else (not ACS, TSCC or whatever).

Rome at 1.2 kg/hp, all mods again

 

[Baron Blitz Red]

I'm really looking forward to the next round's results, as the first 2 have gotten my interest peaked. Did any of the results, as of so far, shock or disappoint you at all?

Have a good one

 

[jeffgoddin]

correction:

Another rule I use is that for a 10% increase or decrease in power, you decrease or increase your lap time by 1%. So when I need to tune to 256.7hp and the closest I can get is 259hp, I increase the lap time by 0.23%, figuring that the extra 2.3hp I have will make me 0.23% faster than I should be.

This should be 2.3/256.7 = 0.9% increase in power so 0.09% decrease in time.

 

[jeffgoddin]

Alright, 3rd round is done-ish, 113 cars tested. Another 15 Impreza's, RX-7's, etc., that are very similar to other cars I already tested. And I only tested the top 40 from the 2nd round that could've competed in the third... I may go back and add the rest of them to this round at some point.

Red Rock, with semi-race suspension, soft slicks, stage 2 weight reduction, all transmission upgrades (inc LSD, etc.), and given power to make 3.5 kg/hp (at 1200kg...) So, pretty fast, but decent control means going for near-perfect runs and fine lines.

Note semi-race suspension means springs are still proportional to stock and not adjustable. This will affect handing, so results here are still somewhat a judgement of stock potential.

And unlike the previous round which allowed only fixed gears, this one lifts that restriction to fully custom gears, so we can't complain anymore that the the stock/fixed trannies aren't getting enough out of our engine.


Shocking results, the Spoon Integra wins by a wide margin! This car with semi-race suspension has stupid hard springs, but somehow it works, barely, never fully in control, and with no chance of a perfect run. Maintaining speeds 6-10mph (10-15kph) higher through all corners than any other car I tested. And despite having a crappy power curve at this tuning state. So, a lightweight FF wins high power Red Rock. The Spoon civic was almost as disappointing as the Spoon S2000 (which has total engine failure).

'96 Corvettes did well, as did the other true sports cars including RX-7's, 300ZX's, 180/240SX's, Silvias and Supras. Yeah, other than the Integra, FR's dominated this round again.

The NSX Type S in 17th was the best MR, and the best of its clan, with the Atlantique 300 bi-turbo next in 32nd.

4WD? Lan Evo V RS made 25th, Impreza 22B the best WRX at 45th, and then the GT-R R34 VSpec, 3000GT TT MR '99, and GT-R R33 LM Road Car in 51st-53rd.

The S2000 was a respectable 7th especially considering its displacement/weight. The RS200 Altezza in 41st also gets a mention for having the smallest displacement/weight of any car this round.

Skylines generally disappointed, MR-2's suck, Elises are useless.

I'll give the Infini III a nod for being the best of the "starter" cars in 15th place.

Again, weight does not seem to correlate strongly with performance.

Full results:

74.499 Integra Type R Spoon
74.639 Supra RZ '97
74.730 Corvette Grand Sport '96
74.769 RX-7 Type R '98
74.785 Corvette Coupe '96
74.793 S2000
74.803 RX-7 GT-C '99
74.876 RX-7 A-Spec '96
74.951 Silvia 270R NISMO
75.068 RX-7 Type RZ '97
75.070 300ZX Ver.S Turbo '94
75.088 RX-7 Type RB '96
75.091 Silvia Spec R Aero '99
75.126 RX-7 Infini III '90
75.136 Camaro SS '97
75.139 NSX Type S '97
75.141 RX-7 Type R '91
75.155 300ZX Ver.S '94
75.196 Supra '96
75.264 Silvia Spec R '99
75.292 Silvia K's 2000cc '91
75.296 Supra SZ-R '97
75.302 300ZX 2 seater TT '98
75.342 Lan Evo V RS '98
75.357 Supra '97
75.358 200SX Type X '96 big spoiler
75.376 200SX Type X '96 sm spoiler
75.405 RX-7 Touring X '96
75.424 Supra Twinturbo R '91
75.424 200SX '98 (K's)
75.433 Atlantique 300 bi-turbo
75.442 Chimaera 4.0
75.452 Mustang SVT Cobra '99
75.452 Esprit sport 350
75.456 NSX Type S Zero '97
75.479 Aristo 3.0V '91
75.505 XK8 Coupe
75.538 Camaro Z/28 Coupe '97
75.542 Concept Car
75.552 Altezza RS200
75.564 200SX '95 (Silvia S14 K's)
75.606 200SX K's Aero '98
75.610 Esprit V8 SE
75.622 Impreza 22B STi Ver.V '98
75.646 Civic Type R Spoon
75.716 Supra Turbo '93
75.722 Sileighty
75.723 Chimaera 4.5
75.736 300ZX 2 seater '98
75.749 Skyline GT-R Vspec R34 '99
75.755 3000GT Twin Turbo MR '99
75.759 Skyline GT-R R33 LM Road Car
75.782 NSX Type R '97
75.805 Esprit V8 GT
75.825 S3 1.8T 20V '99
75.831 Clio Sport V6 24V
75.863 Impreza type RA STi Ver.VI '99
75.930 200SX Type S '96
75.946 Cosmo Type E
75.970 Impreza Type R STi Ver.V '98
75.983 A3 1.8T 20V '96
76.019 AMG C43
76.044 FTO GP Version R '97
76.070 Silvia Spec S '99
76.113 RX-7 GT-Turbo '83
76.122 XKR (supercharged XK8)
76.123 Soarer 2.5GT-T VVT-i '96
76.131 S4 2.7TT V6 '97
76.156 323 GT-R '92
76.208 3000GT VR-4 Turbo '99
76.214 Skyline 25GT-Turbo R34 '98
76.262 FTO GPX '97
76.263 Silvia Spec S Aero '99
76.269 406 3.0 V6 Coupe
76.288 Lexus SC400
76.291 SLK 230 Kompressor
76.302 323ti Compact E36 '98
76.370 Cosmo Type S
76.379 Tom's 280T
76.410 Delta HF Integrale Collezione
76.433 328ci Coupe E46
76.483 Prelude SiR-S Spec '98
76.488 Skyline GT-R NISMO 400R Preceding
76.527 Tom's T020
76.543 MX-5 C-Spec
76.563 Chaser TRD sports X30
76.606 MR2 GT-S '96
76.647 Skyline GT-R R32 '89
76.672 Skyline GT-R NISMO R32 '90
76.680 AMG E55
76.726 Celica GT-Four '95
76.757 Mark II Tourer V
76.798 Delta HF Integrale Evoluzione
76.900 Skyline GT-R NISMO 400R
76.906 Skyline 280 Type MR
76.969 Eclipse GS-T
76.981 Chaser Tourer V
76.995 MR2 TRD2000GT
77.035 Lexus SC300/Aristo S300 turbo
77.102 Civic Vti '93
77.266 323 GT-X '92
77.275 CLK 320 Sport
77.317 3000GT SR '99
77.559 DB7
77.579 ZZIII
77.729 ZZ-S Coupe
77.746 156 2.5 V6 24V NA tuned
78.708 Celica GT-Four RC '91
79.000 MR2 GT-S '98
80.000 S2000 Spoon
80.038 Elise 190
80.799 Elise Motorsport

 

[Kingofweasles]

I've got to say that these comparisons are astounding Jeff! I never would've thought that the Spoon Integra could go so fast around Red Rock Valley, or that the Lotus Elises could all be so slow! I guess it goes to show you that there's still an enourmous amount of things to discover in GT2, even after all these years...

 

[Baron Blitz Red]

Just curious, what do mean by saying the Spoon 2000 has total engine failure?

Again, just an amazing amount of effort to give us these results, thank you!

Have a good one

 

[jeffgoddin]

Thanks for the kind words. Others such as obsessive and pointless and a waste of time could have been used! I just love the diversity in GT2 and have been working up to a comparo like this for a while, figuring out a few things about how to fairly compare different cars along the way (still not totally fair, but mostly close I think.)

And keep in mind this is my driving/tuning. I do it all AT, and am generally not very subtle with suspension/LSD settings. Same basic formula for everything, only rarely tweaked when a car's behavior just won't settle down with practice.

Just curious, what do mean by saying the Spoon 2000 has total engine failure?

Tuned to 308hp for this competition, keep in mind it has a redline of 8625 rpms:


likely another PD goof, the redline should have been 11125 or something like that. I mean come on, the CPU remap/VTEC doesn't even kick in until 8000rpms! And I had to gold all those license tests for it!

 

[Baron Blitz Red]

Wow, that picture says it all eh? I'm really surprised to be honest... I know what you mean though, some of my friends are amazed that I still play GT2 from time to time. I just find it addictive when I do get into it. But I just think it's a testament to the game itself, not too many other games can match it for longevity...

Again thanks, the comparo's that you've done puts things into a perspective that I just didn't think of before. Well done Sir!

Have a good one