BMW 135i Real V/S BMW 135i GT5P

[Gulf]

Today i had to drive back to the office in a BMW 135i M Sport Package. There's no need to say how Awesome is that car (notice the capital A). Magnificient piece of machinery and an incredible piece of engine. I haven't driven something like that. Something that looks so quiet and peaceful, yet so scary and dangerous. Well, i had to drive something like 60 kilometres, 20 in the city and 40 on the highway. City driving, as every BMW should be; a luxiorious smooth ride with some added poise at the touch of the gas pedal. It was an amazing feeling every time i pressed the gas after a red light. I think my foot still shakes from the addrenaline. Then, highway. 130km/h in 6th gear all the way. The torque is a different story. Going at 110km/h in 5th, put your foot down, 3 seconds later... Surprise, you're now doing 150.
After some minutes, back to city roads right before my office. At this point i wanted to test handling. And what can i say? It griped like a cat running on carpet. No understeer at all when turning corners at 55+km/h. The rear wheel drive does something incredible to the car. I am used to drive a MINI Cooper '04. I thought that car handles like a dream. But it is a different dream compared to the 135i. When driving the MINI, you can feel the traction on the wheels when you turn any bend. But with the BMW, you feel in your hands that the front tires are just... turning, doing what they are suppose to do. And it does it like no other.

At this point i should tell you, if you have 40k+ in your wallet, go to your BMW dealership and buy one. The best car you'll own in your entire life. But no. If you want an advice like that you should go to theTop Gear or Fifth Gear website.

I want to tell you what is the difference about the car i drove today, with the car i drove tonight in the game.

So let's start. I won't tell you anything about interior or exterior design. PD developer did a wonderful job. I just care about the drive. And i have to say that i was very disapointed (still am) with how the car drives on the game. Sadly i cant experience that rush of adrenaline i got earlier today, but you can feel and see that the car it is very very fast. I fitted N3 tires (the ones GT Manual recomends as the stardard on this car). Then i took the car to the London Circuit. First of all, i tried to get a 0-100km/h and i got something like 6 seconds (have in mind that the real figure is 5.6 seconds), so it's very accurate, I think i got a time like that when i did it on the road. Anyway, that's not the main thing why i am dissapointed with the handling on the car in the game.

(In the game, i did this test using Professional setting) Is the understeer that bothers me. In London, with N3 tires, every time i was going over 45km/h on a corner, the car understeered like crazy. It felt like driving on a surface with soap. There was absolutely no grip at all. Just to compare with real life, right before my office in the real car, there's a very open 90º right corner. I went very fast, turning at 60km/h, and the car did it beautifully, with standard tires (I know the suspension package has an effect, but i dont think is that big). Oversteers was also an issue, specially in 1st gear. In the real car, i was on a T junction and i had to get into a street so i accelerated (traction control off) and got in very fast, some tire slip but not as much as in the game.

I understand that the developers try to create the best virtual driving experience for every car. But i think that in this case, and i am sure that is not the only case, they tried to give characteristics of a race car, to a road legal sport cuopé.

Maybe this text might take so time to be read. I just needed to tell what i did today. I drove the best machine ever created. I rode shotgun on a M3 Coupé, by far my favorite car of all times, but it doesnt compare, not even slightly, to what i just did today.

I will write soon something about the MINI Cooper S '09 I drove for a weekend a while a go, and compare it to the MINI Cooper S '06 in the game. Many detail will be lost but i will give it a try.

I hope some people with similar a similar experience as mine (same or different car) can comment what you felt. Take care everyone.

And to finish, I am going to say what every guy using english as their second language says. Sorry for the spelling mistake or any other mistake present in the text.

 

[patriotzero]

Yes i didnt satisfied handling of BMW. There s something wrong about it.. Counting 7 dayz.

 

[888 Tuning]

wha if you change the tires to S1 does that feel more like the real car?

 

[kekke2000]

Deep down I know the cars in the Gran Turismo games aren't accurate. But I try to hide it from myself all the time. I think it has to do with the ability to drive the car with a pad. "The Real Driving Simulator" is really Enthusia Professional Racing, trying to play that with a pad is almost impossible. But I still would choose GT over Enthusia any time, it's just more fun.

 

[Paulie]

Speeds you're doing in Gran Turismo feel a lot faster in real life is all I can say. I'll do a 90 degree corner on a thin country road in my Ute at 45-50km/hr and that feels pretty darn fast, not super fast or as fast as my Ute can go, but rather spritey. If I did that same speed in any car on GT5 on the same corner it would feel like a caterpillar. Welcome to the world of gaming where you can't feel G forces.

 

[niky]

The lack of G-forces and visual referents are a problem. As is your inability to compare steering lock on the controller with a real-life steering wheel.

Those two inches of travel in your left stick are equivalent to 3 turns, lock-to-lock, on a steering wheel. What this means is that the car initially feels very understeery when you start driving. This is because you're going faster than you think you are, in a corner that's tighter than you think it is, and have more steering dialled in than you think you do... whew...

Once you get to push your car on a racetrack, you realize that the latent understeer has always been there. Pushing the car on a narrow public road, you instinctively keep it at 8/10ths, where understeer is hardly ever an issue, whether on a Bimmer or a Hummer. Push it at 10/10ths on the racetrack, and you'll discover a whole new level of understeer. Go into a corner just 5 mph too fast and you'll miss the apex by a mile. Go in just 10 mph too fast and you'd better have your local tow service on speed dial. And it's easy to enter a turn too fast in Turismo. You have absolutely no inertial sense of how fast you're going in the game and are driving merely on visual cues.

A bigger problem is the amount of lock you have dialled in. Too much steering angle limits your braking and turning abilities... Unless you're entering a 180 degree hairpin, you almost never have your steering wheel turned more than ninety degrees from center, in real life. If the dual analog's one inch of sideways travel is equal to 360-540 degrees of steering input in real life... how much is just ninety? An eight of an inch? Even with steering controllers, you often have to recalibrate your expectations from the real car... and you can't feel the tires beginning to slide with a controller...

I used to think understeer in these games was overblown. I've driven my car really hard on the road... on the cusp of oversteer... a lot of times... and never experienced the level of understeer the same car experiences on track. But after my first track day, I gained a new respect for Turismo.

Turns out everything understeers. In slow speed autocrosses, in medium speed corners, and in high speed sweepers (and if you're not understeering, you're oversteering). You never really know what your car's attitude is until you've exceeded the tires' grip limit. And that limit is waaaaay past the point where those tires start squealing.

If you've never experienced it... you're just not driving hard enough. And if you've experienced it on the streets... well... you're driving waaaay too hard.

 

[Paulie]

Damn it niky, I'll take my Ute to the track when she's ready. I can't take a near enough's good enough stock Ute to the track, I want some mods to test when I do.

 

[G.T.Ace]

You should try S1 tires and do it again, the M Sport Package actually makes a huge difference, you also need to shut off all electronic assistance like ESP to get the same effect as in game with the driving aids off (dont do this on a public road). niky brought up some ood points too. I actually like the 1 in the game (even when i absolutely HATE its design, but thats a matter of taste) i find it easy to control but you can do drifts with it if you want (just like the M3, very forgivable).

 

[tdk]

Welcome to the world of gaming where you can't feel G forces.

pretty much it. if you could remote control a real car on a real track it'd be extremely similar to GT. thing is, in the real world you're not even gonna go that fast on a track because you're SCARED to do so, even if you know you can.

so yea, its not that GT's physics aren't realistic. it's us who get scared of driving that fast in the real world, whether its because of the g-forces or we're just mentally scared

 

[paskowitz]

Yeah for the 1 hour was in a Ford GT (passenger seat) going at most 120mph on the highway it felt way faster than say 200mph in GT5. One of the biggest problems with the GT series has been conveying that sense of speed. Games like GRiD and the upcoming NFS Shift seem to do a good job of this and it shows. The only cars in GT5p that make me say to myself, "holly crap, now I am moving", are the F1 car and the Ford GTLM, ok and the silly Citroen spaceship mobile.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Sorry but i disagree, the motion blur in GRID for example does the exact opposite for me.

 

[PAPPACLART]

The lack of G-forces and visual referents are a problem. As is your inability to compare steering lock on the controller with a real-life steering wheel.

Those two inches of travel in your left stick are equivalent to 3 turns, lock-to-lock, on a steering wheel. What this means is that the car initially feels very understeery when you start driving. This is because you're going faster than you think you are, in a corner that's tighter than you think it is, and have more steering dialled in than you think you do... whew...

Once you get to push your car on a racetrack, you realize that the latent understeer has always been there. Pushing the car on a narrow public road, you instinctively keep it at 8/10ths, where understeer is hardly ever an issue, whether on a Bimmer or a Hummer. Push it at 10/10ths on the racetrack, and you'll discover a whole new level of understeer. Go into a corner just 5 mph too fast and you'll miss the apex by a mile. Go in just 10 mph too fast and you'd better have your local tow service on speed dial. And it's easy to enter a turn too fast in Turismo. You have absolutely no inertial sense of how fast you're going in the game and are driving merely on visual cues.

A bigger problem is the amount of lock you have dialled in. Too much steering angle limits your braking and turning abilities... Unless you're entering a 180 degree hairpin, you almost never have your steering wheel turned more than ninety degrees from center, in real life. If the dual analog's one inch of sideways travel is equal to 360-540 degrees of steering input in real life... how much is just ninety? An eight of an inch? Even with steering controllers, you often have to recalibrate your expectations from the real car... and you can't feel the tires beginning to slide with a controller...

I used to think understeer in these games was overblown. I've driven my car really hard on the road... on the cusp of oversteer... a lot of times... and never experienced the level of understeer the same car experiences on track. But after my first track day, I gained a new respect for Turismo.

Turns out everything understeers. In slow speed autocrosses, in medium speed corners, and in high speed sweepers (and if you're not understeering, you're oversteering). You never really know what your car's attitude is until you've exceeded the tires' grip limit. And that limit is waaaaay past the point where those tires start squealing.

If you've never experienced it... you're just not driving hard enough. And if you've experienced it on the streets... well... you're driving waaaay too hard.

Spot on

 

[Gulf]

I just read niky's post and it makes a lot of sense. We'll never get the sense of speed or adrenaline on a game. That's such a shame. About the test: In the game i used Professional Physics and no driving aids. I wanted to get a close as reality, that's why i picked the London Circuit to do the in-game test. Sadly the handling experience doesnt compare to reality. Maybe having standard physics the feel of the car can be improve. But as far as i know, Professional physics are the closest to reality.
Anyway, I hope i can drive that car again to add some other insights to the topic. I would like to know if someone else have had a similar experience, Real car v/s GT5P car.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Standard physics arent realistic at all, so youre right there.

To your last sentence:
Ive read from a lot people that the Focus ST is pretty similar to its real life counterpart, dunno.

 

[tdk]

Ive read from a lot people that the Focus ST is pretty similar to its real life counterpart, dunno.

maybe because its one of few cars they've tested in real life? lol. no one here can compare the F2007 to the real one....

 

[homeforsummer]

I may have missed it but Gulf, did you try your comparative test in the game with a wheel and pedals combo or just the pad? I've spent the last three days at a GTP LAN event playing GT4 and it's the first time I've used a wheel in GT games. Not only was it a hell of a lot more fun than using a gamepad, but it was much more realistic and intuitive too. And that was on GT4, which certainly isn't the most realistic GT game. As niky mentioned though, on a gamepad it's not really the best measure of things like understeer and oversteer because a large amount of steering lock is being replicated in only a tiny movement of an analogue stick.

In the recent LAN, I realised that I wasn't using more than a quarter of a turn of the wheel to get around most corners. Using a gamepad, I probably use the equivalent of 3/4 to a whole turn of the wheel at the least. I consider myself pretty good with the pad but driving with the wheel made me so much smoother and probably even quicker by the end of the three days.

My recommendation would definitely be to try GT5 with a wheel/pedals and then report back on your findings as I'm pretty sure they'll be much more favourable.

 

[DonZonda]

Yeah for the 1 hour was in a Ford GT (passenger seat) going at most 120mph on the highway it felt way faster than say 200mph in GT5. One of the biggest problems with the GT series has been conveying that sense of speed. Games like GRiD and the upcoming NFS Shift seem to do a good job of this and it shows. The only cars in GT5p that make me say to myself, "holly crap, now I am moving", are the F1 car and the Ford GTLM, ok and the silly Citroen spaceship mobile.

I agree with you , the sense of speed in GT was always a problem. And is still one. The game moves too slow and to clear and sharp I worked for a little time at Brabus. And drove on the Autobahn speed till 280 km/h with a 640 HP CL . And i though at this speed just damn holy crap is that freaking fast when i looked out the sidewindow all things blured to my eyes . At the next moment i thought about GT5P , and my thought was ... damn that game feels so slow and clear compared to real life .

Sorry but i disagree, the motion blur in GRID for example does the exact opposite for me.

I hate racing games without motion blur.

Well the motion blur in GRID makes the game real faster and gives it a more realistic look. I cant get how you can say Motion Blur is not realistic or makes games feel slower .Things bluring for our eyes thats fact even on TV cameras things bluring , if you seen the 24h Nürburgring onboard cams you seen it. If a game moves so sharp and clear like GT, that makes it way slower.

 

[homeforsummer]

Well the motion blur in GRID makes the game real faster and gives it a more realistic look. I cant get how you can say Motion Blur is not realistic or makes games feels slower .T hings bluring for our eyes thats fact even on TV cameras things bluring , if you seen the 24h onboard cams you seen it. If a game moves so sharp and clear like GT . That makes it way slower.

If your eyes blur things when you're travelling in a car, even quickly, then I'd suggest you have them checked.

The view out of the front screen certainly shouldn't be blurred, and it isn't on TV in the same way it isn't in real life. And if you look out of the side window in GT5 when you're whizzing past a barrier or similar, you can't define detail in the same way you could if you were at a standstill. Again, this is the same as in real life.

The game doesn't need artificial motion blur at all.

 

[DonZonda]

If your eyes blur things when you're travelling in a car, even quickly, then I'd suggest you have them checked.

The view out of the front screen certainly shouldn't be blurred, and it isn't on TV in the same way it isn't in real life. And if you look out of the side window in GT5 when you're whizzing past a barrier or similar, you can't define detail in the same way you could if you were at a standstill. Again, this is the same as in real life.

The game doesn't need artificial motion blur at all.

loL you guys are funny , yeah things dont blur in the front window thats right. But if you look out the sidewindow it does for everyone if you near things.The friends of mine and me all saying that. Well we got all eye problems? Drive by a train or subway , car . what else.. drive near plants a wall or look on the asphalt . And then you want tell me you see all sharp and clear? you see every little detail on the wall and on the asphalt? Or in the plants? NO its bluring . i dont talk about

motion blur like NFS or something ... i talk about low motion blur and thats real , probably you dont get my point or what i do mean..

EDIT : Oh and when motion blur dont excist for our eyes . why do the wheels in real life and GT5P blur? and dont runing sharp and clear?

 

[Gulf]

I may have missed it but Gulf, did you try your comparative test in the game with a wheel and pedals combo or just the pad?

It was with a pad (cant afford g25 for now). Even though it was with the pad, i think am a very descent driver. i never use full lock unless is needed, so for the purpose of testing handling, it might be ok.
I know that having the wheel is a completely different - I've tried it on GT4 - experiences but there's nothing i can do about that now

wha if you change the tires to S1 does that feel more like the real car?

Im going to try it as soon as i get home today

 

[Hugo Boss]

My recommendation would definitely be to try GT5 with a wheel/pedals and then report back on your findings as I'm pretty sure they'll be much more favourable.

Did you try the car yourself in GT5P already? To be honest I don't think it would change Gulf's opinion much if he tried that car with a wheel and pedals.
To me the car is a real disappointment too, although I enjoy to use it online. Unfortunately I have never driven the car myself, but if you compare the car to a 350Z in the game the difference is immense. The 135i understeers like a tank and already starts oversteering when you think about hitting the throttle. If the real life version would handle like this, it would simply be too dangerous for public roads. It's just too unbalanced. Partly the same story for the Z4. The front end just feels completely dead.

If you then try the Nissan 350Z, Skyline 350GT & 370 coupe, you'll notice they have a far more responsive front end and a better balance between under- and oversteer. I think PD just lacks the data from certain cars to simulate them properly, the 135i being one of them.

 

[niky]

I feel pretty confident of my abilities, too... I can get within the top 100 times for most cars on the Online Leaderboards with the Dualshock... and within the top 10 (if it's a really unpopular car... ) to top 20 for a small number of those... but comparing the best stick work with wheel users is like comparing console shooters with PC shooters... you can get very good with a joystick, but it's no patch on what you can do with a mouse.

EDIT : Oh and when motion blur dont excist for our eyes . why do the wheels in real life and GT5P blur? and dont runing sharp and clear?

Motion blur out the front window and down the track. You look straight out your front windshield at the road ahead, and you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference between 60 mph and 100 mph. That's unless your car is a tinny little buzzbox, like mine. In which case, the vibration and noise will make 60 mph seem like 200.

Use the in-cockpit view, though, and assign buttons to the "look left" and "look right" function, and when you look out the sides, the barriers flowing by your side window seem blurry enough... don't they?

EDIT: I haven't driven the 135i variant, but I've driven different 1's and 3's. They oversteer, given the right input, and understeer, given the wrong one. BMW's front-ends aren't quite as sticky as you'd expect for "50:50" weight distribution... like most road cars, they're tuned with a bit of built-in understeer for safety reasons. I think Duke or M-Spec could back this up...

 

[G.T.Ace]

if you seen the 24h Nürburgring onboard cams you seen it

Nothing there blurs for me, sorry.
I watch a lot motorsports, i followed the 24h Nürburgring race all the time and i watched Indy 500 on sunday, theres no such thing as motion blur in real life, i also think the 2nd roof cam in the GT5P replays with motion blur feels slower then the normal game.

 

[DonZonda]

Nothing there blurs for me, sorry.
I watch a lot motorsports, i followed the 24h Nürburgring race all the time and i watched Indy 500 on sunday, theres no such thing as motion blur in real life, i also think the 2nd roof cam in the GT5P replays with motion blur feels slower then the normal game.

Well It's alright , we got another opinion but it's okay , everyone should like what he want grüsse aus Dortmund 👍

 

[Stotty]

Just a comment on sensation of speed in games vs real life...

You can't really compare the sensation of speed in your road car in real life against the sensation of speed on track in the game.

In real life, most race circuits kill the speed sensation even for very quick cars... drive round Silverstone for example and you get almost no sensation of speed even at 130mph+ down the Hanger Straight... it's a function of a very wide track surrounded by huge run-off areas. Tracks which are narrower and have more elevation change (such as Brands or Cadwell) are a little better in this regard, but still totally different to road driving.

 

[HUGHS1E]

N tires on this game are a joke, i have driven on remolded tires costing £15 a tire that offer more grip than n1-3s, S tires are much more realistic, i wouldn't be supprised if the n tires are what PD are simulating wet conditions to be like for the full release

 

[Gulf]

That's a very good point. Now that you mentioned, it does feel like the car is going over a wet surface

 

[myke6699]

I don't find the 135 in Prologue to understeer worse than a 350Z, for example. I went further and instead of the N3, I'm using N2 for both front and rear in the video- no, the N tires aren't quite a joke- you just have to be aware of your speed and your braking needs to be better than it would if you were to use Sports or Racing tires. There's no problem hitting 100kmh at the middle (the strings of turns at Trafalgar Square) part. Of course my setup includes a steering wheel- G25 with the FFB set to 10 and all aids off (except ABS which can't be turned off in TT mode). Then I tried the NSX-R with the same tire setup and end up only slightly more than a second faster than the 135. While the NSX-R isn't quite the same car I have in real life (a 1995 Acura NSX), but it is the car I'm very capable of driving fast.

 

[Gulf]

Of course my setup includes a steering wheel- G25 with the FFB set to 10 and all aids off (except ABS which can't be turned off in TT mode).

Other than that, do you have any other setting for the suspension? I did both test using stock settings. Is that with N2 tires?
If so, i should definetely have to get a steering wheel. everything seems so much controlable and easy that with the pad.

Note aside: GT5 will become something like Formula 1, the teams, in this case drivers, with more money (able to get a wheel) will be the time sheet leaders.

 

[myke6699]

Other than that, do you have any other setting for the suspension? I did both test using stock settings. Is that with N2 tires?
If so, i should definetely have to get a steering wheel. everything seems so much controlable and easy that with the pad.

Note aside: GT5 will become something like Formula 1, the teams, in this case drivers, with more money (able to get a wheel) will be the time sheet leaders.

Everything stock- you can't change much (except AIDS on/off) in TT.