BMW 135i Real V/S BMW 135i GT5P

[BMfan]

(In the game, i did this test using Professional setting) Is the understeer that bothers me. In London, with N3 tires, every time i was going over 45km/h on a corner, the car understeered like crazy. It felt like driving on a surface with soap. There was absolutely no grip at all. Just to compare with real life, right before my office in the real car, there's a very open 90º right corner. I went very fast, turning at 60km/h, and the car did it beautifully, with standard tires (I know the suspension package has an effect, but i dont think is that big). Oversteers was also an issue, specially in 1st gear.

I have to agree with you i drive a corsa bakkie all day and there is a 45 degree corner near my house and if i turn that corner just right i can do it at about 45km\h with no understeer,in a bakkie with 185 van tyre's,and yet a 135i in the game understeers so badly.
I find that s1 or s2's are the better options for it.
I agree with your opinion on the 135i it's an Awesome machine,had the opportunity to drive one at a BMW day a few months back.
This is the corsa bakkie that handle's similar to the 135i in the game

 

[HUGHS1E]

the 135 wont understeer much more than a 350z that aint the problem, the problem is the overall grip of n tires, they are a joke in terms of grip, when I go out for a blast for real if the grip levels were like they were in the game I would be drifting everywhere,which is not the case, I have never being in a car in dry conditions that has had grip levels as low as n2s on gt5, and i have a few mates that are running the cheapest tires possible on there m3's and TT 300zx


I am a pad user though so maybe the is a lot more feel through the G25

 

[888 Tuning]

Other than that, do you have any other setting for the suspension? I did both test using stock settings. Is that with N2 tires?
If so, i should definetely have to get a steering wheel. everything seems so much controlable and easy that with the pad.

Note aside: GT5 will become something like Formula 1, the teams, in this case drivers, with more money (able to get a wheel) will be the time sheet leaders.

Gulf, I switched from a pad to a wheel in the last 5 days (after pad driving for the entire GT series) and there really is a world of difference in how a car responds on turn in between the two.
The Logitech DF GT is selling here in Aus for about $100USD.. scrimp and beg if you have to but a wheel will change your whole game.
Dont discount the Pad drivers as being slow... there are many out there who can get top 100 times (I have some top 50's ), but its a different technique.

Having said that I also agree N3 tyres are just not quite there... maybe if they had an N3.5 it would be better, though S1 more closely matches our perception of what level of grip a standard car should have.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Im asking myself why you guys think the car understeers, i drove in London and had oversteer in every corner driving on N3.

 

[myke6699]

the 135 wont understeer much more than a 350z that aint the problem, the problem is the overall grip of n tires, they are a joke in terms of grip, when I go out for a blast for real if the grip levels were like they were in the game I would be drifting everywhere,which is not the case, I have never being in a car in dry conditions that has had grip levels as low as n2s on gt5, and i have a few mates that are running the cheapest tires possible on there m3's and TT 300zx


I am a pad user though so maybe the is a lot more feel through the G25

While I would agree that none of the N tires have the ideal grip, still the level of grip is quite an improvement over the Spec I and II. In fact, I find N3 can be too grippy for most cars 300 hp and under. Another reason to use N tires in most situation is that you will actually end with a time closer to what you would get in real life. For example when I use S1 tires with a Ferrari F40 @ Suzuka, my time would be around 2:22 which is 4 seconds faster than the F40 record at the track. With N3 my best is around 2:30 which is more realistic.
And yes, wheels especially FFB wheel makes a huge difference in giving you feedback in regards to how far you can push the car before you lose traction. And now that I have the FFB set to 10, what I can feel off the road is even more pronounced and I'm actually hoping that GT5 will have a much higher FFB power than what I'm getting from Prologue right now (those with Fanatec wheel should count themselves lucky because you can adjust FFB discretely without being limited what's in the game).
Another video this time at the super twisty Suzuka with N3 tires for the front and back. Again no aids except ABS and I find the tires to be well behaved. The time of 2:38 is much closer to what a 300 hp car with stock tires would do on the track.

 

[HUGHS1E]

Thats a good point I forgot PD had altered the tyres with updates, saying that one of the times it had more grip than the current n tires but I forget which update it was

 

[d3br34k5]

I think a small measure of visual blur can help 'replicate' the g-forces that we are missing in the game.

That said, I've got a decent handle on the physics of GT5p and really don't want it turned into a Grid-like experience a-la motion blur.

OP, thanks for your comparison. Very nice.

 

[Gulf]

Im asking myself why you guys think the car understeers, i drove in London and had oversteer in every corner driving on N3.

Trust me, it oversteer like hell.

 

[niky]

I tested N3 tires ad nauseum in GT4... and in terms of braking and lateral grip (which seem unchanged in GT5P), they mirror real-life "performance tires" almost exactly.

Listen... your car won't understeer in a corner at 45 km/h. That's because you have a less than a quarter turn of steering dialled in and you're not overstressing the tires.

Now take the same car and do an autocross. Try to make that same 90 degree turn between a bunch of cones with an armful of lock. Hear that squealing? See that black streak behind you as you miss the next gate? Huzzah. Understeer.

 

[Gulf]

Listen... your car won't understeer in a corner at 45 km/h. That's because you have a less than a quarter turn of steering dialled in and you're not overstressing the tires.

Try taking a 90º corner in London at 50km/h. It will. As soon as i can have my hand on a G25 or DFGT, I'll let you know about how it goes.

 

[niky]

I'm talking about real-life. You usually won't see understeer until way past 60 km/h on the streets... but once you get on track, 45 km/h is usually enough.

 

[Paulie]

For example when I use S1 tires with a Ferrari F40 @ Suzuka, my time would be around 2:22 which is 4 seconds faster than the F40 record at the track. With N3 my best is around 2:30 which is more realistic.

I disagree, your 4sec faster lap is because you'll push the F40 harder without fear of death. I strongly feel that S1 is right for supercars and N3 for sports cars.

 

[BMfan]

Listen... your car won't understeer in a corner at 45 km/h. That's because you have a less than a quarter turn of steering dialled in and you're not overstressing the tires

actually you can with a corsa ute,i have done it at this corner i was talking about(sorry,it is a 90 degree corner not a 45),this bakkie comes with crap tires.If you just take the corner not caring how it will understeer but if you consentrait you can take it without any understeer.I turn this corner more than 2 times a day so i know,been doing it for about a year now everyday.

 

[Lion-Face]

I disagree, your 4sec faster lap is because you'll push the F40 harder without fear of death. I strongly feel that S1 is right for supercars and N3 for sports cars.

How much faster though? I can hit 2:28.xxx on N1's @ 550pp (-6 on HP) leaving some room. I race with ABS off so i'm never hanging it all the way out there, and when I time trial i do it in the knowledge that i want to be able to replicate the lap consistantly throughout a race. I'm sure i could go faster, and i have when i've braked later than usual and pushed the car slideways through a few corners but i cut my lap short as i dont want a 'fluke' to be my fastest lap on the circuit. I'm sure someone going all out could blast the 2:28 time on Ntires.

 

[detergent]

Why are we comparing real life to a videogame and expecting that the videogame to have a favorable comparison?

Real car= $40,000

PS3= $400
G25= $250
HDTV= $1000

I mean how much are people expecting from a videogame that's based on the technology that we have nowadays in the PS3 to give us?

I think at the end of the day what you get from your moneys worth from GT5P+G25
is an experience that is suppose to be fun and challenging in a videogame.

If GT5P is far off what you had experienced, than what game comes close to this lovely real life experience you had?

 

[homeforsummer]

loL you guys are funny , yeah things dont blur in the front window thats right. But if you look out the sidewindow it does for everyone if you near things.The friends of mine and me all saying that. Well we got all eye problems? Drive by a train or subway , car . what else.. drive near plants a wall or look on the asphalt . And then you want tell me you see all sharp and clear? you see every little detail on the wall and on the asphalt? Or in the plants? NO its bluring . i dont talk about

motion blur like NFS or something ... i talk about low motion blur and thats real , probably you dont get my point or what i do mean..

EDIT : Oh and when motion blur dont excist for our eyes . why do the wheels in real life and GT5P blur? and dont runing sharp and clear?

Have another read what I typed:

If your eyes blur things when you're travelling in a car, even quickly, then I'd suggest you have them checked.

The view out of the front screen certainly shouldn't be blurred, and it isn't on TV in the same way it isn't in real life. And if you look out of the side window in GT5 when you're whizzing past a barrier or similar, you can't define detail in the same way you could if you were at a standstill. Again, this is the same as in real life.

The game doesn't need artificial motion blur at all.

I've already said that if you look out of a side window in GT when you're flying past a barrier or the like, say, at the London circuit, you don't see it clearly. It's blurring but not in an artificial way. Or to put it another way, doing exactly the same as your eyes would do.

Try this next time you're driving (if you drive) - look at an object in the distance as you're driving along. Does it blur? No. Would it blur in a racing game with artificial blurring? Yes. This is not realistic.

Now try looking at objects close to you. Do they blur? Yes, because you can't focus on things close to the car when you're travelling along quickly. Do things close to the car blur in GT when you look to the side? Yes, because in exactly the same way, you can't focus on these things close to the car. This is realistic.

There is no need for artificial blurring.

 

[BMfan]

To detergent don't forget in the game we don't have to pay couple hundred bucks to stay on 1 track for a day we get 6 tracks for free for as long as we like.

Is nice to do a comparison if you have driven the real thing though.

 

[drivatar]

I don't like motion blur. It's often used to hide a bad framerate. 60fps without blur is king.

 

[RenaultSport133]

U have driven 135i in the city and on the autobahn....In GT5p u have stormed down the eiger and roushed through the suzuka....As we all know cars act different on different speeds....Besides,how did u get so clear impression of car that u have driven for like half an hour?!

 

[Gulf]

U have driven 135i in the city and on the autobahn....In GT5p u have stormed down the eiger and roushed through the suzuka....As we all know cars act different on different speeds....Besides,how did u get so clear impression of car that u have driven for like half an hour?!

They do act different at different speed. I picked the London circuit because it is the most similar environment to the conditions I had to experience when I drove the car. And yes, you can get a good impression of a car if you are thorough in your testing and if you have driven some other cars to compare it to (I've driven many BMWs and many MINI and been shotgun in many more, plus in Chile I have driven many many more cars, from trucks to small city cars). That's the point of dealership's test drive cars, isn't it?

 

[Kryz11]

At this point i should tell you, if you have 40k+ in your wallet, go to your BMW dealership and buy one. The best car you'll own in your entire life. But no. If you want an advice like that you should go to theTop Gear or Fifth Gear website.

Sure they love the BMW but Fifth gear Perfers the under dog , R32.

And i have to say that i was very disapointed (still am) with how the car drives on the game. Sadly i cant experience that rush of adrenaline i got earlier today, but you can feel and see that the car it is very very fast. I fitted N3 tires (the ones GT Manual recommends as the stardard on this car). Then i took the car to the London Circuit. First of all, i tried to get a 0-100km/h and i got something like 6 seconds (have in mind that the real figure is 5.6 seconds), so it's very accurate.

Yes 0-60 times are accurate, I think you should check out S1 tires regarding PD saying to use N3, Either way it's really hard to get FACTORY 0-60 times even in real life, I bet if you have try to do it in the BMW, it would take you few times to do it.

I think i got a time like that when i did it on the road. Anyway, that's not the main thing why i am dissapointed with the handling on the car in the game.
(In the game, i did this test using Professional setting) Is the understeer that bothers me. In London, with N3 tires, every time i was going over 45km/h on a corner, the car understeered like crazy. It felt like driving on a surface with soap. There was absolutely no grip at all. Just to compare with real life, right before my office in the real car, there's a very open 90º right corner. I went very fast, turning at 60km/h, and the car did it beautifully, with standard tires (I know the suspension package has an effect, but i dont think is that big). Oversteers was also an issue, specially in 1st gear. In the real car, i was on a T junction and i had to get into a street so i accelerated (traction control off) and got in very fast, some tire slip but not as much as in the game.

I think you are over thinking it how fast you went in real life on 90 degree turn at 60 KK and in game you only did 45KM

Remeber, did you worm up the tires, YES it's true in GT5P, in time tirals you need at least ONE HARD LAP to worm up the tires, On London circuit I would drive 2-3 laps before doing the test

SO start all over again.

I understand that the developers try to create the best virtual driving experience for every car. But i think that in this case, and i am sure that is not the only case, they tried to give characteristics of a race car, to a road legal sport cuopé.

Maybe this text might take so time to be read. I just needed to tell what i did today. I drove the best machine ever created. I rode shotgun on a M3 Coupé, by far my favorite car of all times, but it doesnt compare, not even slightly, to what i just did today.

I will write soon something about the MINI Cooper S '09 I drove for a weekend a while a go, and compare it to the MINI Cooper S '06 in the game. Many detail will be lost but i will give it a try.

I hope some people with similar a similar experience as mine (same or different car) can comment what you felt. Take care everyone.

And to finish, I am going to say what every guy using english as their second language says. Sorry for the spelling mistake or any other mistake present in the text.

Yes sim is not perfect, but I think you can get better results, just worm up your tires for 2-3 laps in LONDON before you start the tests. It really helps with handling.

 

[Gulf]

Valid point about warming up the tires. Although i didn several laps, maybe around 20 and the handling didnt change that much. I haven't had time to try the S1 tires yet. As soon as I can, I'll post ab about that.

Sure they love the BMW but Fifth gear Perfers the under dog , R32.

I tested the Coupé not the hatch. And if you read Clarkson's column on The Time (www.timesonline.co.uk) he states is by far the best car BMW build now, and he awarded 5 start to it. Further more, I just put those sites to make a point, not the state a fact. Thanks for correcting though.

I think you are over thinking it how fast you went in real life on 90 degree turn at 60 KK and in game you only did 45KM

You might be right, but just yesterday i was driving a MINI Cooper '04, went to turn on another 90º corner, i could check the speed at the middle of the corner and the speed-o-meter said 55km/h. The amazing thing is, the MINI, front wheel drive car with an amazing suspension, and it turned glued to the ground, no sliping tires, no tire noise, no dramas. If the MINI can do it, there's no way the BMW can't.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Greycap]

If the MINI can do it, there's no way the BMW can't.

There most certainly is a way. It's called being about 400 kg heavier. As well as the BMW's handle there's nothing they can do about the simple laws of physics.

 

[Kryz11]

Valid point about warming up the tires. Although i didn several laps, maybe around 20 and the handling didnt change that much. I haven't had time to try the S1 tires yet. As soon as I can, I'll post ab about that.


If the MINI can do it, there's no way the BMW can't.

Thanks for reading.

Tires does change with grip, do you use a wheel also? With wheel you get much smoother and cleaner turns, less squicky.. so that another factor.


Car and Driver mention the car UNDER STEERS a lot, for their cons, they mention "Too much front-end push for hard-core drivers"

In gran turismo you can feel the under steer, alos GT5P is made for mid to high speeds, at low speeds the physics in GT5P may become confusing and wrong at time, but still one of the best sims out there.


I bet the MINI can have better handling but lets see, these specs will be from Car and driver road handling
the mini weights 2668-2723 BMW weights 3373 I doubt BMW can handle as good.


BMW
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.89 g

Mini
I can't find specs... But I bet it's way better because of not having 600-700 LBS.. that is a lot.

 

[Gulf]

Tires does change with grip, do you use a wheel also? With wheel you get much smoother and cleaner turns, less squicky.. so that another factor.

I don't have a wheel, sadly.

There most certainly is a way. It's called being about 400 kg heavier. As well as the BMW's handle there's nothing they can do about the simple laws of physics.

Mini
I can't find specs... But I bet it's way better because of not having 600-700 LBS.. that is a lot.

What I ment to state when i named the MINI's handling, was to make a reference about the different tractions. Front wheel drive car at that kind of speed on a normal road should understeer a little. Rear wheel drive cars, at that kind of speed, should understeer even less, or shouldn't understeer at all. I don't think that the difference in weight have that much importance at that kind of speed. If that was true, every Bently on the street shouldn't be allowed to turn corner at more that 35km/h.
Anyway, the point of the review I wrote is not to be super technical. It is just to compare the the real car with the one in the game. For my taste, what I experienced in the game was far from what I experienced in real life. N3 tires where a joke in terms of handling (those are the ones recommented by PD as the standard tires), the car was all over the place. An taking corner at the same speed I took corners in real life, the cars were absolutely different.

 

[Kryz11]

Yeah man I understand, But that BMW is very understeery car if you don't punch on throttle or drift the way out, its a nose heavy car, and weight way more then MINI does, it does not matter it's a FF or RWD because you are not RACING but rather driving at just higher speeds.

But yeah good comparison tho, I wish PD will fix issues with tires. I bet GT5 will have it changed.

 

[888 Tuning]

I took the Bimmer for a few laps last night round london on N1 tyres, and I have to say it feels pretty close to what I would expect from any small rwd car. It has a good balance good turn in and likes to get tail happy under power on exit.
The grip from the N1 tyres actually seemed pretty good and the only time I was getting understeer was trying to turn in too fast, around 80-90kph, which is expected.

Gulf, I think once you have a chance to drive this car with a wheel you will change your perception

What was interesting as a comparison is taking the Merc SL55 out on N1 tyres.... I felt that was almost impossible to drive in a straight line and the N1 tyres felt completely inadequate.

 

[wnffe]

.......Car and Driver mention the car UNDER STEERS a lot, for their cons, they mention "Too much front-end push for hard-core drivers" ........

BMW
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.89 g

Mini
I can't find specs... But I bet it's way better because of not having 600-700 LBS.. that is a lot.

Exactly what I thought. I struggle to find articles or datas for production car that can do above 1g with street legal tyres. Only very few cars can do more than 1g with street tyres (even for supercars). Using S1 tyres will give lateral g reading above 1g massively even on small radius corner, so I doubt it is a correct representation.

(S1 gives reading between 1.2g up to 1.5g which is close to semi-slick and slick tyres. Check your g meters below your speedo and tacho when cornering, guys...)

Using N3 tyres on the other hand is spot on with g reading but too slippery. For this reason, I activate 'active steering' but only for N tyres. It gives extra grip by reducing tendencies to oversteer too easily. It makes the car more undesteer but at least it feels more planted when exiting corners. Give it a try. If you are a competetive driver, I don't find any harm trying 'active steering' with N tyres... Afterall, stock cars tend to undesteer anyway...

Here are some other link on lateral g-reading that I find interesting..

Top 10 Highest Lateral G - Benchracing
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 vs. Ford GT vs. Dodge Viper SRT10 Coupe
trackvision data logger

👍

 

[niky]

The question is... too slippery compared to what?

Like I've said, I've driven a few BMWs on track, and that "front-end push", as Car&Driver (and, by the way, EVO) have mentioned, is entirely accurate. RWD does not equal completely neutral handling. The same way that FWD does not always mean mind-numbing oversteer. The amount of understeer a car has is programmed in entirely by the suspension and chassis designers... otherwise, how could a nose-heavy car like the Lancer Evolution be so easy to oversteer?

The question here is... people are saying it's too understeery compared to how they think it should drive on the racetrack in real-life... not compared to how they know it drives on the racetrack from experience.

 

[wnffe]

The question is... too slippery compared to what?

Like I've said, I've driven a few BMWs on track, and that "front-end push", as Car&Driver (and, by the way, EVO) have mentioned, is entirely accurate. RWD does not equal completely neutral handling. The same way that FWD does not always mean mind-numbing oversteer. The amount of understeer a car has is programmed in entirely by the suspension and chassis designers... otherwise, how could a nose-heavy car like the Lancer Evolution be so easy to oversteer?

The question here is... people are saying it's too understeery compared to how they think it should drive on the racetrack in real-life... not compared to how they know it drives on the racetrack from experience.

I agree entirely. Perhaps what I meant was...too slippery compared to S1. And more understeery in the game when turning 'active steering' than turning it off.

I can't compare with the real 135i because I have never driven one at will. Being an ex-beemer owner, the closest I can compare of quite similar class was the M3 e36. Long time ago, and shamefully, I only drove her spiritedly once during a trackday event. And that was immediately after I fitted all four used Eagle F1 off from Ebay.

Even on used tyres, the car definitely felt very grippy..Not too easy to break traction at all. As far as I can remember when driving her hard, oversteer often occurs after initial turn in understeer. But on wet it's a different story though!

Now PD suggested N3 or N2 tyres for the 135i. Same foot apply to this 135i in the game and I was drifting every corner.... Power oversteer feels too much...well at least for me with the same footwork. According reviews, I presume modern cars like the 135i could have handled better than that. I don't know... Maybe it was just my feeling in the game, not feeling any fear.

The point that I'm making was, S1 feels natural to me (although lateral g-reading isn't correct) but N3 with medium 'active steering' also feels fine. N3 or N2 alone with other aids off just doesn't feels right...

Of course, what do I know...I just think 'slippery' is in the hand (or foot) of the beholder...I'm no engineer. I'm sure you could explain this in a more scientific approach..