BoP Races my a$$!

[DarkKni9hT]

K, this is really starting to hack me off. Been a GT fan since the start. Just got PS Plus purely to race online. I'm sorry I did now, as it seems highly fixed. I've been attempting the Daily Race for Group 3 cars, of which I have dozens finely tuned. The Race alters power and weight settings automatically for "Balance of Power" racing. Fair enough. Do my qualifier laps and come in at approx 1:32 to qualify 14th of 16! Check the other drivers and there's cars there qualifying 8 seconds or more faster than me! How is this possible if all cars in the grid are supposedly balanced to even levels? 8 seconds? I'm a good driver! In a Gr.3 car I'm usually good for 7:06 around Nurburgring. No rookie here. I know my tuning, my race lines, my race etiquette, all of it. In a BoP race, against other decent drivers, it should be impossible for a gap that large to occur. Then we get out to the race proper and other drivers, in their "balanced cars" are flying around me like I'm standing still! 25 minutes of racing tight and clean and I can't gain more than two positions, if not lose a couple. There's something fishy here. What gives? Where's the "Balance of Power" if my car is clearly being overpowered?

 

[Redneckchef]

The Balance of PERFORMANCE used by PD is wonky in a way. If you are used to highly tuned cars you ate basically starting over. The GTS BoP resets the cars to all have nearly identical suspensions and fiddles with weight and power. The idea being they'll produce similar lap times around the BoP tracks, like Interlagos.

You won't have the fine handling suspension you are used to and will have to get used to dealing with whatever vagaries of handling the stock setup throws at you, as well as the stock gearing, so prepare for differences in shifting points and where your car makes speed on the track.

As I mentioned before, you are basically starting over again as all the tuning knowledge you applied is thrown out the window and for whatever car you select in Sport mode you are given the way PD sets it and have to learn learn deal with it as is. There are also points to the physics engine here that can increase little bits of speed here and there, what track limits can be cut where to find a sneaky bit of grip, and the fact that this model seems to prioritize getting a fast exit from turns more than anything.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

The GTS BoP resets the cars to all have nearly identical suspensions

What? No...

And OP, what DR lobby were you in? I've never seen a cheater in this game. I see none of the issues you're describing.

 

[Redneckchef]

What? No...

And OP, what DR lobby were you in? I've never seen a cheater in this game. I see none of the issues you're describing.

It resets them to universally not an optimum tune is a better way to describe it. And from what I read in OP post, they are a tuner. So not only are they suddenly dealing with weight and power changes, but all the suspension and gearing changes they've made to improve the car are also tossed by when PD turns on BoP.

Basically the car will now handle nothing like the way they prepared it. So very unlike a real world BoP where suspension settings and some others can still be adjusted by the team. Here you are on left with brake balance and traction control as adjustable. The rest is up to changing your inputs.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

@Redneckchef

Alright, fully agree then.

Personally, I'd stop playing GTS if tuning was allowed. That's one of the main reasons i can't bother playing ACC or similar games.

 

[FPV MIC]

I remember well when I first entered the world of online racing. After beating every racing game I'd ever tried (including all GT license tests to that point) I was sure I was up there with the racing greats, but racing against poor/slow AI had not prepared me for the harsh reality that I was so far off it wasn't funny .

We've pretty much all been there and done that at the start of our online racing @DarkKni9hT (except possibly some of the aliens). I've lost count of how many threads I've seen similar to this from new to online racers.

I learnt by continually racing people faster than me back in my GT5 days. You'll get there, and if not, there's still a lot of great racing to be had. It's not all about the wins

 

[Redneckchef]

Also, a point if you are only wanting to race with really tuned cars is to hit the forums here, of look for lobbies where people are pushing to race tuned cars. There is a large world of that still in GTS, just not encouraged in Sport mode by PD.
Also one of the weekly time trials is usually a tuning one. Have a got there and see what they do and how you go. Also, there are usually top replays available to see how people are driving the tracks.

And to tell you how bad it was for me when I entered sport mode for the first time; I got lapped in a 6 lap daily A at Tsukuba. Still a sharp reminder to this day

 

[Nathaniel_Wu]

Just watch the top qualifiers' laps, learn their braking points and line, and use their cars. No need to stick to one car unless you are in the official manufacturer series.

 

[DarkKni9hT]

It resets them to universally not an optimum tune is a better way to describe it. And from what I read in OP post, they are a tuner. So not only are they suddenly dealing with weight and power changes, but all the suspension and gearing changes they've made to improve the car are also tossed by when PD turns on BoP.

Basically the car will now handle nothing like the way they prepared it. So very unlike a real world BoP where suspension settings and some others can still be adjusted by the team. Here you are on left with brake balance and traction control as adjustable. The rest is up to changing your inputs.

You're missing my point. Yes, I tune my cars. I'm cool with the fact that BOP changes settings and alters the overall performance. I can, and have, adjusted to hundreds of different setups over many games and races. I don't have a problem with leveling the playing field. Except that it doesn't. If all cars in the field have been leveled, and I am driving with clean lines and transitions, it should be literally impossible for another driver, let alone ALL of them, to post lap times in an equally tuned car that are so severely faster than mine unless I run off the track or crash. BoP, leveling, call it what you want, should put it on driver skill, not performance, to separate the field. I know my skill set, and given identical cars, nobody is going to eclipse my lap times by better than 8 seconds on a two minute lap. Nobody.

And for the record, I never accused anyone of cheating (except the rammers) I am saying that PD's BoP system is severely flawed to allow this kind of disparity.

What? No...

And OP, what DR lobby were you in? I've never seen a cheater in this game. I see none of the issues you're describing.

Nobody said anything about cheating. My problem is that the BoP system in the game does not balance cars equally. If it did, and I drive well, which I do, there is no combination of driving lines and skill that should produce a gap of more than 8 seconds over a two minute lap. Two seconds, maybe. Eight seconds, not a chance. I've got more than 12,000 miles logged in GTS alone, golds on all licenses, 285 victories in Campaign mode out of 303 races. I know every track inside out. If another driver is besting me by 8 plus seconds over two minutes, they're in a more powerful car. Period.

 

[FPV MIC]

If another driver is besting me by 8 plus seconds over two minutes, they're in a more powerful car. Period.

It's not possible for them to be in a more powerful car in Sport Mode. They are all BoP'ed exactly the same. The difference is only in the individual drivers skill.

Do you use traction control?

 

[Redneckchef]

Nobody said anything about cheating. My problem is that the BoP system in the game does not balance cars equally. If it did, and I drive well, which I do, there is no combination of driving lines and skill that should produce a gap of more than 8 seconds over a two minute lap. Two seconds, maybe. Eight seconds, not a chance. I've got more than 12,000 miles logged in GTS alone, golds on all licenses, 285 victories in Campaign mode out of 303 races. I know every track inside out. If another driver is besting me by 8 plus seconds over two minutes, they're in a more powerful car. Period.

You can always check the replays and see the lines. The cars are balanced for performance over certain distances on certain tracks, and with usually Racing Hard tires only. They are not perfectly balanced either. The problem with overpowered FF has has been around for ages. We can always help and provide tips.

And please don'tget tricked into looking at campaign mode as a good example of skill level. It is good for getting used to the idea of other cars on track with you but it has problems. The AI is terrible, dangerously slow at some places and a lot of the races are beyond easy.

If you want I could recommend the track guides from drivers like Tidgney on youtube. Or if you post a lap asking for help in the daily races thread on the main page there are many people glad to help. Unfortunately we do all agree the BoP has problems, but not necessarily as big as you seem to be experiencing.

"Daily" Race Discussion

I disagree with Sven who is always right so i am wrong, but the merc didn't have to bump you of the track, until then he had the glory of being the only clean in that scenario, you got a bit dirty with the bump but if you did not have the bump you would have been first through that corner and...

www.gtplanet.net

 

[DarkKni9hT]

It's not possible for them to be in a more powerful car in Sport Mode. They are all BoP'ed exactly the same. The difference is only in the individual drivers skill.

Do you use traction control?

I set TC at 2 max, usually 1.

As for driver skill, how's 7:06 around Nurburgring in a Gr.3 car without a single tire off the tarmac?

Just watch the top qualifiers' laps, learn their braking points and line, and use their cars. No need to stick to one car unless you are in the official manufacturer series.

Not to sound cocky, but I don't really need a lot of help with driving lines. 12,000 plus miles in GTS alone, likely over 200,000 across the series. I've been playing GT since the first installment. I know how to get around a track.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

But it is a computer game at the end of the day, not real driving; and some people are just amazing at computer games. They can exploit weaknesses in the physics engine, or just hit every button press at the exact right time. On a solo lap, the exact combination of inputs will result in the same results every time. It’s no surprise that some people seem to be able to do the impossible. Just the same as a mario bros speed runner or the guy that can beat Zelda BoTW in 3 minutes. At least that’s the way I look at it. Sounds like you’re at a very high level regardless. I’m sure there are loads of people, me included, that would look at your times and think it impossible. It’s all relative.

 

[watto79]

I set TC at 2 max, usually 1.

As for driver skill, how's 7:06 around Nurburgring in a Gr.3 car without a single tire off the tarmac?


Not to sound cocky, but I don't really need a lot of help with driving lines. 12,000 plus miles in GTS alone, likely over 200,000 across the series. I've been playing GT since the first installment. I know how to get around a track.

Assuming your along about Daily Race C, the car of choice for qualifying at least is the Toyota Supra. If you use that are you 8s lap faster?

Also worth checking if you're using the soft tyre for qualifying. I'm only speaking from experience when I've been banging my head against the wall with a qualifying time only to realise I'm not using the fastest tyre available.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

@Redneckchef

Alright, fully agree then.

Personally, I'd stop playing GTS if tuning was allowed. That's one of the main reasons i can't bother playing ACC or similar games.

Definitely. I find it hard enough just worrying about driving. The prospect of messing about with countless tuning combinations would drive me crazy.

 

[DarkKni9hT]

Assuming your along about Daily Race C, the car of choice for qualifying at least is the Toyota Supra. If you use that are you 8s lap faster?

Also worth checking if you're using the soft tyre for qualifying. I'm only speaking from experience when I've been banging my head against the wall with a qualifying time only to realise I'm not using the fastest tyre available.

Tires seem to be set by the race, but I'll check out the Supra for sure.

 

[FPV MIC]

I set TC at 2 max, usually 1.

As for driver skill, how's 7:06 around Nurburgring in a Gr.3 car without a single tire off the tarmac?


Not to sound cocky, but I don't really need a lot of help with driving lines. 12,000 plus miles in GTS alone, likely over 200,000 across the series. I've been playing GT since the first installment. I know how to get around a track.

I don't mean to be harsh but in all honesty 7:06 is ordinary. I've done a low 6:43 in the Circuit Experience Nurburgring 1 Lap Attack in a Gt3 car without putting much effort in to it... and I'm a long way off the top of my friends list with that time.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

I don't mean to be harsh but in all honesty 7:06 is ordinary. I've done a low 6:43 in the Circuit Experience Nurburgring 1 Lap Attack in a Gt3 car without putting much effort in to it... and I'm a long way off the top of my friends list with that time.

View attachment 1103448

It’s my goal to gold that in the next year. Do you actually remember every turn, or just sort of wing it?

 

[FPV MIC]

It’s my goal to gold that in the next year. Do you actually remember every turn, or just sort of wing it?

Not just every turn, every kerb, camber, and every bump

 

[NikNakTobasco]

Maybe 2023 then

 

[FPV MIC]

Maybe 2023 then

I've been playing games for many, many years and once you learn a track it carries over to other games, albeit some are better than others at simulating track surfaces. I'm still a long way off the top guys (the record in that Nürburgring Challenge is 6:25 ). It's really not that daunting, just stick at it and you'll get there 👍.

 

[DarkKni9hT]

I don't mean to be harsh but in all honesty 7:06 is ordinary. I've done a low 6:43 in the Circuit Experience Nurburgring 1 Lap Attack in a Gt3 car without putting much effort in to it... and I'm a long way off the top of my friends list with that

I've been playing games for many, many years and once you learn a track it carries over to other games, albeit some are better than others at simulating track surfaces. I'm still a long way off the top guys (the record in that Nürburgring Challenge is 6:25 ). It's really not that daunting, just stick at it and you'll get there 👍.

That's a good lap. I failed to mention I was in traffic at the time. Lap Attack has few cars to get around. Still a good time though.

Not saying I'm invincible by any means. But watching a line of "balanced" vehicles sling around me and pull away like I'm missing a gear is beyond frustrating.

 

[NevilleNobody]

OP WHAT are you on about chief? The fastest time in the America's is a 1.34, so no way you did a 1.32 and no way someone ran a 1.24.

The BOP is irrelevant regardless, grab the supra and see what you can do with it, if you are slow......you're slow, if you are fast, you're fast. But the numbers you are quoting are plain weird.

 

[DarkKni9hT]

OP WHAT are you on about chief? The fastest time in the America's is a 1.34, so no way you did a 1.32 and no way someone ran a 1.24.

The BOP is irrelevant regardless, grab the supra and see what you can do with it, if you are slow......you're slow, if you are fast, you're fast. But the numbers you are quoting are plain weird.

That was Gr.4 track. Gr.3, Dragon's Tail Seaside I'm clocking 1:46s and the upper half of the grid is on 1:38s. 1:46.6 was with the Supra.

 

[FPV MIC]

That's a good lap. I failed to mention I was in traffic at the time. Lap Attack has few cars to get around. Still a good time though.

Not saying I'm invincible by any means. But watching a line of "balanced" vehicles sling around me and pull away like I'm missing a gear is beyond frustrating.

Most of us have been where you are right now, but it will get easier. I raced in rooms with all the top Aussies in them for years and slowly worked my way up from being tail end Charlie to being consistently one of the front runners. Racing those fast guys I learnt where I was losing time, and it was mainly that I braked too late and didn't carrying enough speed at the apex so I didn't get off the corner as well as they did. It gives the illusion that their cars are more powerful.

 

[Famine]

What's an adollardollar?

Balance of Power

It's "Balance of Performance", and this seems to be the source of your misconception.

The cars are not equalised perfectly for power and weight... or indeed anything else. They all have different power and weight to account for the myriad physical differences in the cars in order to bring them roughly into alignment for single-lap pace around a reference circuit or circuits - so that they "perform" roughly equally. Here's the current BOP table:

'Balance of Performance' Update Notice - gran-turismo.com

The Balance of Performance (BoP) for certain car...

www.gran-turismo.com

As you can see, the range is almost 100hp between the least powerful (Mazda RX-Vision) and most powerful (Mazda Atenza), and weight differs by more than 110kg between the lightest (Aston Martin DBR9) and heaviest (Mazda Atenza).

Now, the thing is we don't know what circuit(s) PD uses for the BOP calculations. It might be one track with lots of straights, or one track with no straights, or some tracks, or all of them. We also don't know who's driving the cars; it could be AI, or GT Sport Tour winners, or finalists, or a simulation of the centre 50% of online times, or some guy who can't make a lap of Blue Moon Bay without crashing, or anything else.

However, it's a single setting for all tracks. That means that even if the cars are perfectly balanced in the most perfect one-size-fits-all BOP system ever devised, exactly what car is fastest and slowest at any individual track will change each time. There are going to be races where your chosen car is faster than something else, and where something else is faster than your chosen car. It changes each track - and it changes with tyre wear enabled too, as some cars destroy rubber quicker on their lap times.

If you don't want to be eight seconds a lap slower than a rival, pick the best car at that track (commonly called the "META", or "Most Effective Tactic Available"). Otherwise accept the fact that sometimes the car you like isn't going to be at the sharp end.

Gr.3, Dragon's Tail Seaside I'm clocking 1:46s and the upper half of the grid is on 1:38s. 1:46.6 was with the Supra.

For reference, 1'46.6 is four seconds off the pace of a top Gr.4 lap at Dragon Trail Seaside, on medium tyres (apparently I clocked a 1'45.4 in a Gr.4 car back in the April 2021 Daily Races, and I suck). For Gr.3 on soft tyres it's slow - you should at least be in the 1'3x range.

 

[whiteusagi]

If you can upload a video of 1-2 laps running around Race C conditions on racing soft (fastest allowed) tires with BOP on then I imagine it will be much easier for fellow members to help troubleshoot your issues. Personally, I have a difficult time seeing how a clean lap around DT Seaside with any Gr. 3 car under BOP will only pull a 1:46.6XX under qualifying conditions (no fuel, no tire wear).

 

[NevilleNobody]

That was Gr.4 track. Gr.3, Dragon's Tail Seaside I'm clocking 1:46s and the upper half of the grid is on 1:38s. 1:46.6 was with the Supra.

Mate I can do 40s with my eyes closed, in will jump on in an hr and immediately be in the 38s qualifying and I am an A driver, a+ drivers will hammer me all day.

U slow chief.

Last chicane, taking it flat? Are you on softs?

 

[DarkKni9hT]

Mate I can do 40s with my eyes closed, in will jump on in an hr and immediately be in the 38s qualifying and I am an A driver, a+ drivers will hammer me all day.

U slow chief.

Last chicane, taking it flat? Are you on softs?

Settings?

Last chicane set I sling through part one to the right wall, second section straight as I can out to the left wall.

 

[Redneckchef]

Mate I can do 40s with my eyes closed, in will jump on in an hr and immediately be in the 38s qualifying and I am an A driver, a+ drivers will hammer me all day.

U slow chief.

Last chicane, taking it flat? Are you on softs?

I'll do it as well so there is comparison from multiple drivers. I haven't done sport mode for about 2 weeks and do not like racing gr3 at Seaside as it usually turns out as a bumper fest. I'll grab a supra, a car I hate, and run some laps and record it. If nothing else we are providing some guide laps to see inputs and markers.