BoP Races my a$$!

  • Thread starter DarkKni9hT
  • 89 comments
  • 14,783 views
NevilleNobody
I dont think you understand what BOP is, it literally has zero impact on where you rank in qualifying. Zero.

Good to see gaining places but as soon as your safety rating hits S, the pace increases exponentially. I was circulating last night in the 138s and was the second slowest guy on the track out of 20 cars. Guys were running around in the 35s for God's sake.
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I know what BoP is about. It's a field leveler so every car has essentially the same specs relative to the field, or as close as they can make it. Prevents someone jumping into a race with a 1220hp monster against a field of 670hp cars.

I know it doesn't affect ranking. That's up to the driver. Much better now that I have full control of my car again. Just a matter of laps now.
 
Right so in theory it avoids a meta car but yes, when they tweak it a new king reigns. Has nothing to do with your pace deficit as you've found all that time removing the AI.

If you feel confident enough, try turning TC off. If you can run regular sub 39s, try it, there's time there if you can master it, I can't, I just lose too much confidence.
 
DarkKni9hT
Okay. A little crow to eat here. Seems my dog sitter was playing GTS while I was away end of October. Guess he's not quite the driver I am and changed my base settings, including turning on Driver Assist. There's where all my seconds have been going, as the game's AI is altogether too conservative on the brakes. I'd thought it was the BoP messing with my car, not the base AI. Turned that off and now qualifying high 1:30's, two to three seconds back. That I can deal with. Also now able to gain more positions over the course of a race. Still think the BoP is seriously flawed, but at least I'm not losing six seconds a lap due to a heavy brake pedal. The rest, as has been stated, is up to me. Feel like a tool for not having checked that earlier, but I never use Driver Assist so it didn't occur to me. Feeling like I can now start to edge up the grid with some repetitions and practice. Last race qualified in 14th, was able to finish 8th.

See you'll out on the track and sorry if I went a bit off the rails. Chalk it up to Lockdown #4 Mark VII stress. Cool runnings all.
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Lol, you didn't notice the car braking for you? Really? It's a lot of extra braking to go from a 1:39 to a 1:46, that seems like it would be very obvious.

You sure you're not just shy to post a video of a lap?
 
Imari
Lol, you didn't notice the car braking for you? Really? It's a lot of extra braking to go from a 1:39 to a 1:46, that seems like it would be very obvious.

You sure you're not just shy to post a video of a lap?
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I did notice the early braking, but mistook it for BoP issue.

Vid coming soon. Need a few more reps in.
 
The BOP isn't perfect, and some car classes are more variable than others. But taking Gr.3 as the most well BOP'd class, the difference between fastest and slowest car around an average track should be within 1-1.5 seconds. If you're off the top times by more than this, I'm sorry to say OP, it's your driving, not the car.

Old BOP test done by Tidgney (highly well respected member here and has been to FIA World Tour events several times). The exact laptimes may vary because of several BOP/physics changes since then, but the general concept and time gaps should still be relevant.
www.gtplanet.net

Group 3 BoP Testing

Hey everyone :), So, ever since the big BoP change a few patches ago I've personally not been overly happy in terms of the balance of performance so I wanted to see if my thoughts were justified! So what I've decided to do is test each and every group 3 car at 5 different tracks. Originally it...
www.gtplanet.net www.gtplanet.net

Racing offline against AI and general people in your friends list isn't a great indicator of how good you are. The stopwatch never lies. A lot of people get a massive reality check when they go online the first time. Some people accept it and try to get better, others just instantly place the blame on something else (e.g. others cheating, the car, not using the right wheel, etc).
 
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LeGeNd-1
The BOP isn't perfect, and some car classes are more variable than others. But taking Gr.3 as the most well BOP'd class, the difference between fastest and slowest car around an average track should be within 1-1.5 seconds. If you're off the top times by more than this, I'm sorry to say OP, it's your driving, not the car.

Old BOP test done by Tidgney (highly well respected member here and has been to FIA World Tour events several times). The exact laptimes may vary because of several BOP/physics changes since then, but the general concept and time gaps should still be relevant.
www.gtplanet.net

Group 3 BoP Testing

Hey everyone :), So, ever since the big BoP change a few patches ago I've personally not been overly happy in terms of the balance of performance so I wanted to see if my thoughts were justified! So what I've decided to do is test each and every group 3 car at 5 different tracks. Originally it...
www.gtplanet.net www.gtplanet.net

Racing offline against AI and general people in your friends list isn't a great indicator of how good you are. The stopwatch never lies. A lot of people get a massive reality check when they go online the first time. Some people accept it and try to get better, others just instantly place the blame on something else (e.g. others cheating, the car, not using the right wheel, etc).
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Is the difference even that big? I watch Igor Fraga's stream from time to time. He seems to be lapping approximately the same times no matter what car he chooses, without practice. It just seems more difficult to drive some of them fast.

I'd say that it depends a lot on the driver. Different handling characteristics suit different drivers better or worse.

And yes, Tidgney is super fast and a nice guy in general.
 
HugoTwoWheels
Is the difference even that big? I watch Igor Fraga's stream from time to time. He seems to be lapping approximately the same times no matter what car he chooses, without practice. It just seems more difficult to drive some of them fast.

I'd say that it depends a lot on the driver. Different handling characteristics suit different drivers better or worse.

And yes, Tidgney is super fast and a nice guy in general.
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With the same driver, in a time trial setting there is definitely a difference, and it varies from track to track as well.

Fraga (or any other hyper alien like Hizal) is able to compensate for the car's few tenths deficit because they are a few tenths faster than the other drivers (even among other aliens). Also in a race condition with fuel/tyre/traffic/dirty air people are not lapping perfect laps like in quali, so again the driver matters more than the car.

I agree also some cars are harder than others to get speed out of (Ferrari Gr.3 comes to mind). But even for a DR A pleb like me, the difference between "meta" and slowest Gr.3 at Suzuka is no more than 2 seconds. It's bigger on more extreme tracks like Tokyo East with its big straight, if you compare F1 GTR to RS01 (fastest vs slowest top speed), but that's a rare case.

My point is, the BOP doesn't make all cars dead equal (otherwise it would be called NASCAR), but it's very close on most circuits. If you're lapping multiple seconds off pace the problem is with the driver, not the BOP.
 
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Hi, I also find that sometimes the BoP gives a bit too much differences (OK, I just don't like grids filled with Supra :D:D), but not something putting 8 seconds difference on a 2 minutes lap time.

The logic is weird here, if you want to "check" BoP big gaps, you should try qualifying with different Gr3 cars and see how much time YOU gain or loose when choosing a Supra, Mustang, 911, Corvette, etc... (it will also help you choose a car you like). I bet this will not be a 8s gap.

Comparing your times with other people times has little relationship with BoP (it's another whole topic), for exemple on the daily Dragon Trail Gr3 I think lots of people here can achieve a time under 1.40, regardless of their Gr3 car choice. As some already mention, you should check that you use soft tires when qualifying : this event allows both soft & mediums, and by default you start on medium tires I guess. This point alone might help you be 1-2 seconds faster ?

For the rest, a video would really help people here to give you proper advices to improve your pace.
 
DarkKni9hT
Rip away lads. 1:40.490, missing turn 6 pretty deep.
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Next time, show all controls by selecting show all race info so we can see when you brake, etc. Also chase cam or bumper cam.

Right of the bat at T3 (before S1 ends) you braked way too hard and late. It looks like your burning your brakes. What is your BB? The CoD, do not brake there. You will get killed in a race doing that. You can lift but don’t brake, you’ve been warned.

Also you didn’t show us the final turn.
 
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Trone_Colby
Next time, show all controls by selecting show all race info so we can see when you brake, etc. Also chase cam or bumper cam.

Right of the bat at T3 (before S1 ends) you braked way too hard and late. It looks like your burning your brakes. What is your BB? The CoD, do not brake there. You will get killed in a race doing that. You can lift but don’t brake, you’ve been warned.

Also you didn’t show us the final turn.
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I'll try to post a better video. Was just getting used to the trim controls. BB is set 2 to the front wheels. CoD?
 
The lap is fine in the context of the thread, your problem has been solved and you have the fundamental lines. Now it is just finding pace.

COD = Chicane of Death

To critique the lap;
  • Obviously missed the apex at larini, that's a solid second i reakon
  • You enter the esses too shallow, this affects your lines through the whole complex
  • You enter the COD too shallow, you need to be up against the wall on the right. To be properly competitive you should be barely lifting in the race, flat out in qualifying. To be fast, flat out through the COD every lap without fail, even in race.
Re. controller, I use the square, X and the dpad (so no ticks) and ran a 36.6 in qualy, optimal a 36.2. You have the basics in play, just need to find time that's all. Two errors above cost you a full second and a half, so you're effectively a 39 flat true pace. That's racing speed in A rooms to give you some idea.

Go back and watch my video again, the Group 2 qualy. I say that not to gloat but I think a lot of your time bleed is because you are not using all the track, you need to use the kerbs, go really wide on entry, you're very shallow a lot of the time so even though you are hitting apexes, your exit speed is slow because your entry angle is too shallow.
 
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NevilleNobody
The lap is fine in the context of the thread, your problem has been solved and you have the fundamental lines. Now it is just finding pace.

COD = Chicane of Death

To critique the lap;
  • Obviously missed the apex at larini, that's a solid second i reakon
  • You enter the esses too shallow, this affects your lines through the whole complex
  • You enter the COD too shallow, you need to be up against the wall on the right. To be properly competitive you should be barely lifting in the race, flat out in qualifying. To be fast, flat out through the COD every lap without fail, even in race.
Re. controller, I use the square, X and the dpad (so no ticks) and ran a 36.6 in qualy, optimal a 36.2. You have the basics in play, just need to find time that's all. Two errors above cost you a full second and a half, so you're effectively a 39 flat true pace. That's racing speed in A rooms to give you some idea.

Go back and watch my video again, the Group 2 qualy. I say that not to gloat but I think a lot of your time bleed is because you are not using all the track, you need to use the kerbs, go really wide on entry, you're very shallow a lot of the time so even though you are hitting apexes, your exit speed is slow because your entry angle is too shallow.
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If Larini is the 90 before the hill leading up to the esses, yeah I was too deep into that. Clean there and I would likely have clocked 1:39.***. I do try to use kerbs to advantage. I'll keep working at entry points. Have a tendency to straight line it as much as possible between apex markers, the thought being that straight=full power to the diff. So you're saying I should shed more speed and hit the turns from wide out more sharply, if I get your drift (npi). I'll give it a go.

Feeling much more confident now that DA is turned off. What a colossal boob not to have noticed that earlier. I'll post another couple laps later on. Trying to get times down with my Viper, but she's a bit of a tank compared to other cars I own. Might throw up a turntable of her, as I'm very proud of the livery.

Thanks to all for the tips, advice and putting up with my rant. It's all been very helpful. I'll try to put it all together over some laps.
 
You need a car that turns in well at seaside, so supra, ft1, beetle, maybe 911, big heavy cars struggle through the fast uphill esses as tyres wear.

Yeah you're straight lining a bit, approach wider so you can get on the throttle earlier. I have done a little track time in real life and to me, this game emphasizes exits a touch more than in real life. Sacrafice entry for exit to find time.

Truth be told you've now got the hard work to-do. Finding 8 seconds due to a settings error is easy, getting from the 39s to the 37s is tough work.

Really keep clean and start racing, keep your safety at S at all costs sobyou enter rooms with mostly fair drivers. Running with them will give you a sense of the competition. Also see the gtblade website to evaluate your qualifying times.
 
DarkKni9hT
I'm a good driver! In a Gr.3 car I'm usually good for 7:06 around Nurburgring. No rookie here.
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Sorry, but without specifying what car and especially what tyres that is largely meaningless. In fact, regardless of the car, if that is on any kind of racing tyre then that is, for someone who claims to be a "good" driver and "no rookie", quite embarrassing.

The Office Smile GIF


DarkKni9hT
12,000 plus miles in GTS alone
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DarkKni9hT
am not suffering from newbie fails. GT, GT2, GT3, GT4, GT5, GT6. Finished them all.
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Sorry, this proves nothing. As much as I love Gran Turismo - I have all main titles, bought all my PlayStations for GT (and a GT branded PS4), and even, somehow, have two copies of GT4!? - the target times in licence tests, mission challenges, etc, are laughable and the AI is, and always has been, at best a joke and at worst a bit of an insult.

I get it though, GT wouldn't be the sales-monster it is if the targets it sets were far beyond the abilities of the "casual". But thinking having "finished them all" means you don't suffer from "newbie fails" and makes you in any way fast, when compared to real people, is more than a little delusional.
DarkKni9hT
Seems my dog sitter was playing GTS while I was away end of October. Guess he's not quite the driver I am.
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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I'm afraid you're still not quite the driver you apparently think you are either...
DarkKni9hT
1:40.490

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Thats 1:36.003. in a WRX. Using a DS4. With right stick throttle/brake*. And auto-gears*. In cockpit view.
*I messed up my right hand when I was younger so find holding the controller and using triggers, in the manner required for a racing game, gets quite painful after a while.

Look, I'm not saying I'm mega fast - I'm usually ~1 sec off the pace of the top 10 in the dailies using the meta - so I'm not trying to be arrogant here but you claiming not to be a rookie suffering from "newbie fails", posting that Nurburgring lap time and then that video, is quite, umm, bold.
 
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DJShadesUK
Sorry, but without specifying what car and especially what tyres that is largely meaningless. In fact, regardless of the car, if that is on any kind of racing tyre then that is, for someone who claims to be a "good" driver and "no rookie", quite embarrassing.

The Office Smile GIF



200.gif



Sorry, this proves nothing. As much as I love Gran Turismo - I have all main titles, bought all my PlayStations for GT (and a GT branded PS4), and even, somehow, have two copies of GT4!? - the target times in licence tests, mission challenges, etc, are laughable and the AI is, and always has been, at best a joke and at worst a bit of an insult.

I get it though, GT wouldn't be the sales-monster it is if the targets it sets were far beyond the abilities of the "casual". But thinking having "finished them all" means you don't suffer from "newbie fails" and makes you in any way fast, when compared to real people, is more than a little delusional.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I'm afraid you're still not quite the driver you apparently think you are either...



Thats 1:36.003. in a WRX. Using a DS4. With right stick throttle/brake*. And auto-gears*. In cockpit view.
*I messed up my right hand when I was younger so find holding the controller and using triggers, in the manner required for a racing game, gets quite painful after a while.

Look, I'm not saying I'm mega fast - I'm usually ~1 sec off the pace of the top 10 in the dailies using the meta - so I'm not trying to be arrogant here but you claiming not to be a rookie suffering from "newbie fails", posting that Nurburgring lap time and then that video, is quite, umm, bold.
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Well, thanks for taking the time to slap me in the face, complete with visual aids. You are clearly far superior to me in every way. Guess I'll just toss my Playstation off the roof, as I will never, ever be able to match your brilliance.

For the record, the Nurb lap was in the Toyota VGT, racing medium tires, in traffic and missing half the last knuckle on my left thumb, including nerve endings. So incredibly sorry to be such a disappointment to you and the racing community as a whole. I bow to your superiority.

Scratch that. You're a troll with nothing to add but negativity. Let's never speak again.
 
DarkKni9hT
Well, thanks for taking the time to slap me in the face, complete with visual aids. You are clearly far superior to me in every way. Guess I'll just toss my Playstation off the roof, as I will never, ever be able to match your brilliance.

For the record, the Nurb lap was in the Toyota VGT, racing medium tires, in traffic and missing half the last knuckle on my left thumb, including nerve endings. So incredibly sorry to be such a disappointment to you and the racing community as a whole. I bow to your superiority.

Scratch that. You're a troll with nothing to add but negativity. Let's never speak again.
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Have you done the circuit experience challenges? I jumped into them after I discovered how slow I was when I first played sport mode. If you have people on your friends list you will be able to compare times as a benchmark. Feel free to add me if you like (psn id soc123) My times in that would be from the time I was roughly where your at now. I should go through and redo them to see what tracks I've improved on. They are one of the best tools in the game imo.
 
DJShadesUK
Sorry, but without specifying what car and especially what tyres that is largely meaningless. In fact, regardless of the car, if that is on any kind of racing tyre then that is, for someone who claims to be a "good" driver and "no rookie", quite embarrassing.

The Office Smile GIF



200.gif



Sorry, this proves nothing. As much as I love Gran Turismo - I have all main titles, bought all my PlayStations for GT (and a GT branded PS4), and even, somehow, have two copies of GT4!? - the target times in licence tests, mission challenges, etc, are laughable and the AI is, and always has been, at best a joke and at worst a bit of an insult.

I get it though, GT wouldn't be the sales-monster it is if the targets it sets were far beyond the abilities of the "casual". But thinking having "finished them all" means you don't suffer from "newbie fails" and makes you in any way fast, when compared to real people, is more than a little delusional.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I'm afraid you're still not quite the driver you apparently think you are either...



Thats 1:36.003. in a WRX. Using a DS4. With right stick throttle/brake*. And auto-gears*. In cockpit view.
*I messed up my right hand when I was younger so find holding the controller and using triggers, in the manner required for a racing game, gets quite painful after a while.

Look, I'm not saying I'm mega fast - I'm usually ~1 sec off the pace of the top 10 in the dailies using the meta - so I'm not trying to be arrogant here but you claiming not to be a rookie suffering from "newbie fails", posting that Nurburgring lap time and then that video, is quite, umm, bold.
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Also, the 7:06 around Nurb was not notable for the time, but rather that I did it without a single tire off the track
soc123_au
Have you done the circuit experience challenges? I jumped into them after I discovered how slow I was when I first played sport mode. If you have people on your friends list you will be able to compare times as a benchmark. Feel free to add me if you like (psn id soc123) My times in that would be from the time I was roughly where your at now. I should go through and redo them to see what tracks I've improved on. They are one of the best tools in the game imo.
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I've toyed with the Circuit challenges but not too seriously. I'll give it another go. Thanks. Good advice.
 
DarkKni9hT
Also, the 7:06 around Nurb was not notable for the time, but rather that I did it without a single tire off the track

I've toyed with the Circuit challenges but not too seriously. I'll give it another go. Thanks. Good advice.
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Some of them are really easy, others not so much. It took me forever to gold the Nurb and Sarthe. On the Nurb I found the sector golds easy enough, but putting it together for a lap was a different story. The benchmarking is great as everyone is under identical conditions, the only differences can be brake balance and tcs.
 
DarkKni9hT
K, this is really starting to hack me off. Been a GT fan since the start. Just got PS Plus purely to race online. I'm sorry I did now, as it seems highly fixed. I've been attempting the Daily Race for Group 3 cars, of which I have dozens finely tuned. The Race alters power and weight settings automatically for "Balance of Power" racing. Fair enough. Do my qualifier laps and come in at approx 1:32 to qualify 14th of 16! Check the other drivers and there's cars there qualifying 8 seconds or more faster than me! How is this possible if all cars in the grid are supposedly balanced to even levels? 8 seconds? I'm a good driver! In a Gr.3 car I'm usually good for 7:06 around Nurburgring. No rookie here. I know my tuning, my race lines, my race etiquette, all of it. In a BoP race, against other decent drivers, it should be impossible for a gap that large to occur. Then we get out to the race proper and other drivers, in their "balanced cars" are flying around me like I'm standing still! 25 minutes of racing tight and clean and I can't gain more than two positions, if not lose a couple. There's something fishy here. What gives? Where's the "Balance of Power" if my car is clearly being overpowered?
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As far as I can tell BOP is calculated over all the tracks, not just the current one. All the cars have different characteristics. Some have better handling and some have a higher top speed etc. so one car usually ends up a little better or worse depending on the track. It wouldn't be much fun if all the cars were the same, that would be like single make races.
 
@DarkKni9hT ...

Sorry, but you contradict yourself quite often, most of your questions have already been answered, so that's done.
But I still want to point this out. You explicitly said of yourself that you were a very good driver and that the time you lost couldn't be explained normally. You pushed these differences on BoP and initially ruled out any fault of your own.

Then you wrote that your bad times came from having driving aids active. - To this I say, sorry but a good driver more like that IMMEDIATELY and he should be able to fix the error after 2-3 laps at the latest.

Then your round wasn't as good as you said it was to be expected. Which you justify with physical limitations and the controller. - Regarding physical problems, nobody can do anything about it and I feel sorry for everyone who is impaired in any way. But then you shouldn't write beforehand that you are a very strong/fast driver and others could hardly be faster. About the controller... it's good for real top drivers who drive faster with a controller than most with high-end steering wheels.

Currently on the Nordschleife. - Over 7 minutes in a GT3 is NOT a record time.
I myself haven't been with GTS for long, but I like driving on the Nordschleife a lot.
I drive there temporarily with my GT4 car on BoP settings and without further tuning and exclusively on hard racing tires, because that's the only way differences in the cars are visible AND whether I'm getting better as a driver.
My best time so far is 7.06,xxx! As I said in a BoP GT4. However, my OP time is already 7.04.9xx because I still have small errors somewhere, for example when braking.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not going to attack you or humiliate you, but initially and sometimes even now you expressed yourself as if YOU couldn't be to blame for your bad times.
But you can, but the same applies to me too. If I'm slower than others with the same car with car X in race Y despite BOP, then that's on me POINT. If I'm slower with another car, that car may not suit the track as well. For example, currently in Interlargos, I really enjoy driving my McLaren GTR BMW, this car is a weapon, it has enormous torque and reaches its VMax very quickly, its possible cornering speeds are not bad either, but the car is very bad on the brakes and very inaccurate. That's why it's difficult to set really good times with him and I'm far from the best anyway, but even further with the car.
 
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DarkKni9hT
K, this is really starting to hack me off. Been a GT fan since the start. Just got PS Plus purely to race online. I'm sorry I did now, as it seems highly fixed. I've been attempting the Daily Race for Group 3 cars, of which I have dozens finely tuned. The Race alters power and weight settings automatically for "Balance of Power" racing. Fair enough. Do my qualifier laps and come in at approx 1:32 to qualify 14th of 16! Check the other drivers and there's cars there qualifying 8 seconds or more faster than me! How is this possible if all cars in the grid are supposedly balanced to even levels? 8 seconds? I'm a good driver! In a Gr.3 car I'm usually good for 7:06 around Nurburgring. No rookie here. I know my tuning, my race lines, my race etiquette, all of it. In a BoP race, against other decent drivers, it should be impossible for a gap that large to occur. Then we get out to the race proper and other drivers, in their "balanced cars" are flying around me like I'm standing still! 25 minutes of racing tight and clean and I can't gain more than two positions, if not lose a couple. There's something fishy here. What gives? Where's the "Balance of Power" if my car is clearly being overpowered?
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Absolutely correct . I have had enough of it
 

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