Botched Cars! Will It Carry On To GT5?

[Disturbed07]

Well, let me start off by saying that I've noticed several different cars in GT4 that are NOT up to par compared to real life. Obviously, some of this is opinion, though some of it is fact, too.
Starting with the Pontiac Sunfire GXP Concept, this car has great handling, probabley the best for any FWD car in GT4, however, it has absolutly NO top speed capabilitys whatsoever. Why? even when modified to 319HP, this car can't exceed about 155mph? The Buick GNX runs the quarter mile 1 full second slower than it does in real life, why? The Dodge Neon, has completly improper gearing than it does in real life, and is one of the very few that does, why? The TVR Cerbera, spins like crazy, even with super-soft tyres, why? according to live4speed, seemingly the most knowledgeable about this car here at GTPlanet, this is completley untrue. Obviously, due to only 1 existing, PD did'nt drive it, but why include it if your going to make it undrivable? And there are more, but I'd like to leave some open for discussion.
On the contrary, some cars seem way to good, for instance, the Nissan 350Z, while I understand these cars are nice, I don't believe they should spank the pants off of a Mitsubishi Lancer or Subaru Impreza. Also, the Ford GT, has a top speed in the game of about 220 mph, even though the best speed I've heard of, and the claimed speed is 205mph, why?
My question is this: why does this happen in a game where every car is so down-to-spec? why are a select few completley off? is it an intentional thing? while I can't think of any reason for PD to do it, it strikes me as odd that they could screw so many up, while getting most perfect (or really, really close)
Finally, what I really want to know, is if anybody thinks this will carry on to GT5? I love cars, and what I love about the GT series most, is that I can drive everyday cars, and see what they can do, I want to be able to compare two cars, and see which is REALLY better. Is it just me, or is this mostly happening with American cars?
Any thoughts, questions, clarifications needed? let me know, and if this thread is a bad idea, forgive me, for I know not what I do.

 

[Torana05dude]

Well, let me start off by saying that I've noticed several different cars in GT4 that are NOT up to par compared to real life. Obviously, some of this is opinion, though some of it is fact, too. . . . . .
. . . . . Is it just me, or is this mostly happening with American cars?
Any thoughts, questions, clarifications needed? let me know, and if this thread is a bad idea, forgive me, for I know not what I do.

Its something that I know alot of people have also picked up on. One example just off the top of my head is the Peugeot 905 and its ford fiesta gear changes. Who really knows why it happens, I know there have been a few conspiracy theories thrown around (Commercial pressure etc.) or weather it was just a glitch that PD missed, who knows.
It would be terrible to think that it was one of those "we wont participate unless our cars are better" theories, but if it was, we can probably expect to see it again, in some form, in GT5.
Although, that theory doesn't explain why us poor PAL version players have to deal with B-spec Bob's misadventures on the circuit le sarth II course. . . . . maybe it is just an oversight. . . . . .

 

[Dave A]

It's no glitch, 90% of the cars won't run as fast as you'd like, the simple fact is, most manufacturers claime 1/4 times, 0-60's ect are the best they've managed to record, if your average 0-60 deosn't match the best, don't be confused about it, it shouldn't. Same goes for 1/4 mile times, it's not just American cars either, thats a daft comment, it's pretty much all the cars including PD's beloved Skylines.

 

[niky]

Well... off the top of my head (pointy as it is):

The Dodge Neon, Mitsubishi Eclipse GT (05) and Volkswagen Golf GTi Mk V all suffer from improper encoding of gears and nothing more. The Eclipse and Golf get this because they have different final gears for their top gears, and GT's gear-engine only has space for one final gear... oops.

The Sunfire Concept probably suffers from poor aerodynamics. In stock form, it accelerates like a turd, too... it's a wonder they put this one in, as a stock Sunfire would have been much better. Best handling? Drive a Clio 2.0, that one's a blast.

Claimed top speeds are often just that... claimed. As GT4 doesn't support rev limiters or speed limiters either, most cars which are rev limited or speed limited can go faster than their claimed top speeds. GT4 also allows you to go past the stock rev cut on some cars, hence the high speeds.

One car that gets a bonus is the RX8. This car goes much much better than it should in real life. Apparently, its weight and power specs were taken from concept and preproduction models, before the "missing power" issue came about.

And that's the whole problem. PD did their testing on a varied lot of test cars. We don't know whether they'd gotten freak pre-production units or beaten up press units. Some units weren't American-spec or full-production spec, hence, more power, much less weight, different tires, and so on. Who's to say that the old GNX they'd gotten for testing didn't come on bald tires?

Also, on the topic of American Cars vs. Others: American cars are usually built to softer suspension specs than European market or Japanese market cars, and this is reflected in the game. What isn't reflected is the fact that most Japanese and European cars sold IN the US are ALSO tuned softer. Unlucky Yanks.

The 350Z is well modelled in the game. What ruins the Z vs. Evo contest is the fact that most AWDs are not. GT4 does NOT model front-driven wheels well. Thus, FF cars can't accelerate as well as in real life, and cornering in FF and AWD cars is severely compromised due to front wheel traction issues.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

^very good statement!^

Also some issues could be down to carphysics and surroundings. Since cars are well implemented, as far as aerodynamics go, some of them will suffer due to the fact that airflow is not well implemented. One other factor that has effect on cars, but are not down to the cars themselves, is centrifugal forces, wich seem to be totally overlooked by PD.

 

[Ford 429 Hemi]

Ford has said a few figures on top speed for the GT.
Most common is 212 mph. But 220 isn't out of the question.
That just means thats the fastest they cared to do in the car.

 

[Disturbed07]

Well, I havent seen anything saying the Ford GT got over 205, but either way, one would hope they'd either test it right, or go with manufactures spec, at least for GT5. This being all cars, Maybe that's a lot to ask, but I'm still askin for it.
Also, wouldnt the Sunfire have to have the aerodynamics of a truck for that? 320hp - with 220hp, the integra goes that fast. Sorry, that sounds a bit unbelievable to me

 

[nightkid86]

The whole naming of the silvia/240sx line is botched on multiple levels. the 240sx's shown in the game are actually silvias, and have to much hp for a ka24 which they revieced in teh states.

 

[Eric.]

Well, I havent seen anything saying the Ford GT got over 205, but either way, one would hope they'd either test it right, or go with manufactures spec, at least for GT5. This being all cars, Maybe that's a lot to ask, but I'm still askin for it.
Also, wouldnt the Sunfire have to have the aerodynamics of a truck for that? 320hp - with 220hp, the integra goes that fast. Sorry, that sounds a bit unbelievable to me

The Sunfire is supercharged, though, so it doesn't have much power in the higher revs.


The "240SXs" are all listed with the SR20DET, also.

 

[Disturbed07]

The Sunfire is supercharged, though, so it doesn't have much power in the higher revs.


The "240SXs" are all listed with the SR20DET, also.

They have powerbands listed in the game, and the Sunfire has one of the best, especially for a 4-banger. Also, saying supercharged cars don't have power in high revs is not only a common misconception, but defies physics. The only reason any vehicles would not have power in high revs because of a supercharger would be either because the supercharger is too small, or, from improper tuning. I have also heard people say superchargers create peaky top-end power, which is also untrue. Boost is boost, it just depends on how high the revs are when it gets the full amount of boost
Also, the Silvias seem to spin the tires way to much, even more than most cars with twice the power. Do they come with exceptionally skinny tires stock? I can't think of any other reason for this, along with the Toyota Supra's.

 

[Emohawk]

Others unmentioned;
-I remember some major F-body enthusiast who came up with a huge list of ways the old Camaros are innaccurate.
-Has everyone forgotten the huge ruckus over the F150 lightning being 4WD in the game?
-The Audi TT has been strictly FWD untill you buy the VCD controller in both GT3 and 4, hasn't it?

I think they will continue, yes. It's just too many cars to not screw up some of them, even if one could manage to eliminate all the sampling errors that niky mentioned.

 

[Disturbed07]

It seems to me, most all innacurate cars/trucks are from America/Europe, (besides the general mistake of all FF-4WD cars), and being that this game was designed by Japanese people (at first, anyway) is this intentional? After all, this game brought to light many Japanese cars and put their names in the average household. I'm not saying it is, but is'nt it a weird coincidence? I can think of very few, if any, Japanese cars that are botched, which really makes me wonder if this will ever stop.
Is it to much of a conspiracy theory to think maybe it's intentional to convince people from other countries to buy Japanese cars? Smack me if I sound like a crazy guy on the street corner.

 

[Emohawk]

It's possible that its intentional, but I believe it's likely incidental. They're based in Japan, what kind of cars do they have the easiest access too?
While Japan is a pretty nationalistic country, PD really doesn't have anything to gain from attempting to influence car sales in that way. Even if they did, I doubt these sort of minor tweaks would be very effective. Probably the majority of Gran Turismo's audience is either A) Younger gamers who can't drive anyway, B) Auto enthusiasts who already have their preferences and preconceptions cemented, or both.

 

[niky]

Well...

As for Japanese cars being given an unfair advantage in the game, so far as I've seen, only the RX8 is faster than it should be (as per post above)...

Skylines? Too powerful? Well, they're no match for Tuscans or Corvettes.

There aren't any Japanese FRs as good as the Corvette, or as fast as the Viper... the NSX Concept is a ridiculously good MR, but it's a concept, obviously, and in terms of concepts, the VW Nardo and the Cadillac Cien are better. The best non-concept MRs are American and European. The best lightweight track cars are European. The best sedans are German and English... unfair advantage? You're probably looking at the wrong cars.

As for inaccuracies, remember, the Eclipse concept gets it wrong. The 240SXs are misnamed/mistitled, and though they're American market, they're technically Japanese. But the Silvias... they drive alright... must be a heavy foot or narrow tires on yours.

Like I said, if a Japanese car seems faster than it should be, remember, most cars were tested where they were available, and if you test a Japanese car in Japan, it will come without many of the encumberances the American-European versions get in the course of market localization... like radios, subwoofers (in some cases), sat-nav, passenger side airbag, side-curtain airbags, additional sound insulation, etcetera.

Case in point: The Mazda Protege. The Japanese version in the game (though the engine and gearbox suck compared to the US Market MP3) is only 1170kg, while the US version is 1250 kg: maybe 10 kg for the bigger Kenwood sound system and subwoofer, around 10 kg for the bigger wheels, 60 kgs for additional sound insulation, structural stiffening, electronic braking controller, and extra airbag.

That's a difference of 80 kgs... a hell of a lot of difference in racing... about 2-4 seconds a lap on a 1.5 minute course.

Like Emohawk said, there are just too many cars for them to get them all right. Thankfully, many solutions are just a tune or tweak away.

 

[Jay]

The whole naming of the silvia/240sx line is botched on multiple levels. the 240sx's shown in the game are actually silvias, and have to much hp for a ka24 which they revieced in teh states.

The "240SXs" are all listed with the SR20DET, also.

Yeah quick dodgy localization done by Sony america.

We have the same with our PAL region, like the Toyota Soarer is changed to Lexus SC300 but it still has the 2.5Litre 1JZGTE engine.

 

[Mr. Boy]

Well I don't think PD could get the stats and characteristics of every single car perfect. Especially when there are over 700 of them!

 

[YSSMAN]

The 350Z is completely overrated in GT4 and it totally pisses me off...

There is no way at all that I should be able to run a 7:59 on the Nurburgring Nordshelife in a 350Z GT Eddition, as some of the worlds greatest sports cars cannot match that.

The same car (actually a 350Z track) in Forza can only post a low 9:00 on the 'Ring, which is right about right...

Want confirmation? Check out the September 2005 eddition of CAR Magazine. Mark Bramley posted his best lap time in GT4 in a 350Z GT Eddition at 7min 57sec, and in real life had a best time of 9min 3.8 seconds (but could have been 10-20 seconds faster without having to deal with trafic on the track).

Best Ha-Ha moment of the article: Yamauchi's best time on the 'Ring is 10 minutes in an Audi TT 3.2 DSG...

 

[Kylehnat]

Here's a thought: IT'S A VIDEO GAME! Don't expect a game to match reality tit-for-tat. Just be happy you don't have to play NFS.

 

[YSSMAN]

I play NFS just for the hell of it... Sometimes it makes me sad to be a fan of the franchise...

 

[Jay]

Nurburing real life time

8:26 - Nissan 350Z - 2003 (280hp version)

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=74142

 

[Disturbed07]

I ran a 7:51 in GT4, I believe....
I also like NFS, I just like GT4 better
And I LOVE Mr. Boy's Sig!!!
my point isnt that I demand every car be perfect, rather all be close, rather than Japanese cars be good, while the rest suffer because they design the game in Japan, mostly - I'd rather see less time on the ones that are easy for them to get, and more time on the harder ones, so all have an equal chance - maybe that makes me a perfectionist, but they called it the "the real driving simulator"

 

[niky]

Dear God, YSSMAN, I've got 7:45 or so on an old Z06 (faster than the new one, actually) and 7:22 or :25 on an M5. (Que horror! that's faster than an Enzo?) Lap times are definitely not realistic on sports tires... read up on Scaff's thread regarding Suspension & Brake tuning (excellent .pdf download) in the Tuning section or the numerous discussions we've had here.

Like I've said, it's useless to compare FR and AWD cars in GT4, as AWD cars in general get the shaft... compare the 350Z to a Corvette or an M3 and then it won't seem so hot. Drive everything in the same weight and power classes, and then you can complain.

 

[Disturbed07]

I've driven a Z06 - perhaps to your surprise, I've driven hundreds of cars at the ring, in GT4. The Z06 time was 7:28, I believe, while the fastest time I have with a 350 is a 7:41 - with the fastest (not the 300HP 1) 350 you can get.
Case in point? thats a 13 second difference - it probabley should be more, no?
I like 350's, but I don't think they're nearly as good in real life as they are in GT4.
More than any of this, I'd rather see no cars slower, and with horrible gears, like the SRT4, GTI, etc compared to real life, rather than have them fix cars that are to fast, why? cause I just wanna be able to drive any car without being upset the whole time about this car needing shifted 1 grand before redline, or needing to shift every 2 seconds in the Neon

 

[Nattefrost]

The 350Z is completely overrated in GT4 and it totally pisses me off...

There is no way at all that I should be able to run a 7:59 on the Nurburgring Nordshelife in a 350Z GT Eddition, as some of the worlds greatest sports cars cannot match that.

The same car (actually a 350Z track) in Forza can only post a low 9:00 on the 'Ring, which is right about right...

Want confirmation? Check out the September 2005 eddition of CAR Magazine. Mark Bramley posted his best lap time in GT4 in a 350Z GT Eddition at 7min 57sec, and in real life had a best time of 9min 3.8 seconds (but could have been 10-20 seconds faster without having to deal with trafic on the track).

Best Ha-Ha moment of the article: Yamauchi's best time on the 'Ring is 10 minutes in an Audi TT 3.2 DSG...

Of course a certain car does better times in a video game than in real life. In a video game, there's no risk-factor. You can take every corner bleeding fast if your good enough. In real life, one could try it, but if he messes up, it results in death. Logically, no one dares to push his car that much, certainly not on a track as demanding and outright dangerous as the Nürburgring. That's why GT's times are off.

 

[Eric.]

The start/finish line is on the straight now in real life, so that affects times some. Then there is traffic, cold/damp sections of track, winds, etc., that GT doesn't simulate.

At least they fixed the Lightning for PAL/US NTSC.

 

[Dave A]

Where the start and finish line is doesn't affect the full lap times at all, only the out and in laps.

 

[niky]

I actually consider a 13 second difference very significant. 13 seconds indicates that the Corvette is a much MUCH faster car than the 350Z, and that's an eternity on the 'Ring. Even just two seconds is a hundred meter difference down the final straight.

What would be wrong is if the 350Z were only five seconds or so off the Corvette. Give it 400 horses and B-Spec both. I bet the Z won't even get close.

 

[JohnBM01]

Botched cars is the topic, right? Okay, let me offer my merciless assault of instilling knowledge to this thread.

You already know what I'm going to say about this. They can't get every one of the cars correctly. I don't even think PD tested the Daimler motor cars around Fuji or someplace . In some ways, that's one of the deficiencies involved in putting in so many cars. People are obviosuly going to use at least 30 to 40% of the cars in the game including some of the "clones." People will want even their favorite cars to be as close to real as their real-life counterparts. Some people were bashing on others in GT4 when someone thought the Scion xB was inconsistent. Fact is, not everyone is going to want to see only performance cars. Some want their economy cars and compacts to perform as they would in real life, granted the person owns the car included in the game. Just because (in this example) the Scion xB obviously isn't a favorite car among car people doesn't mean that people still don't want to see their real car designed inconsistently in a Gran Turismo game. After all, whether or not you like the car in the game makes very little (if any) difference when it comes to inconsistencies in car specs. PD doesn't care if you don't like a certain car or not. As long as it caters to the likes of fans alike and people think it's consistent with its real-life specs, then that's all that matters.

Do I think this will carry on? These "botched cars" could very well happen again in GT5. What's the best way to get around it? Here's my plan. PD's going to have to branch out and hook up with automotive editors to see how cars performed based on others' tests. PD obviosuly has some devoted car fans, but they'll need to tag along with other editors and pro racers. Hell, they can go bother the Top Gear guys n' gals! It doesn't matter. Branch out, get more info on car specs, maybe hire some people to do tests for PD... get EVERY POSSIBLE ADVANTAGE YOU CAN GET. Get more people to do tests and read more results and reports on cars. Then, program the cars into GT and get them in as accurate as possible from horsepower to gear ratios. Botched cars are still possible, but can be gotten around to and attended to. But hey, is everyone going to race about... I don't know... 700 cars to see if they are all accurate?

 

[Disturbed07]

I actually consider a 13 second difference very significant. 13 seconds indicates that the Corvette is a much MUCH faster car than the 350Z, and that's an eternity on the 'Ring. Even just two seconds is a hundred meter difference down the final straight.

What would be wrong is if the 350Z were only five seconds or so off the Corvette. Give it 400 horses and B-Spec both. I bet the Z won't even get close.

13 seconds on the ring is like 1 second or less on anormal track, is all I'm saying

400horses? I'd like to, but I'm far, far away from my PS2 right now, perhaps somebody in here wants to though?

JOHNBMO - I'd love to test em all! I probly won't, but I'm not sure what your saying. Is it, they should do better to get cars right? or are you saying, they can't get em all?

 

[niky]

John, about the 700 cars comment, some of us are already halfway there.