Brake Balance controller

[G-T-4-Fan]

Ok well, first of all, I read the GT4 and Brake sticky, but it's sooo massive it still isn't very clear for me.

Ok well my new Lotus Esprit (bought at the Lotus dealer) is one awsome car. I wanted to tune it to beat the JGTC championship and I already did that with some cars. So far I dont have any problems with BHP and cornering. It's almost perfect:tup:

But only braking....
I made the car as light as possible and put Racing Brakes on it but it's still braking very crappy. Now I was thinking.....can you increase the brake POWER with the brake balance controller.

Edit: I read the ABS link in Scaffs brake manual. And again....it looks like it's what I'm searching but it doesn't really mention the best settings for the brake balance controller...

So far I only used it to balance out the car while braking but can it decrease braking distance on a straight line?

Thanks.

 

[Greycap]

The following is not absolute truth but how I see that the controller works:

The balance controller is actually a strength controller, increase the strength to 24 both front and rear. If the brakes lock up, decrease the strength to 20/20. If they don't lock any more, increase the strength. Keep working this way until you find the strongest settings with which the wheels don't lock.

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

Hehe, well I dont have a clue so I'll try that.
Does it really work like that? When I'm drifting I have a brake balance of 8/15 or something like that and it actually seems like the front brakes harder then?

 

[Rac3rX]

Yeah But Dont Start at 24/24, unless you got a DFP with a Pedal its real easy to hit the brakes too hard keeping them low will prevent mistaken lock ups from over applying the brakes, Generally the Brake setting will be lower then 10. Work with off setting them, and go low to high (It will take less time) start 4/2 move to 5/3 and 6/4 & 8/6 if it doesnt feel good reverse the variables (I only say this as its the Lotus your tuning a MR car) so then try 2/4, 3/5, 4/6, 6/8 and so on. If neither of these feels right (You should already have a brake set up by this point, and Ive never gone this far setting the brakes) you can try equal variables 3/3, 4/4, 5/5, 6/6 & so on. The fact weight transfers to the front when braking generally implicates offsetting will be the best option, but to each there own.

 

[Greycap]

If you have 8/15 brake balance the front brakes are much weaker than the rear. I usually keep neutral brake balance but of course you can use any setting you like.

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

Maybe it's good for drifting because the back locks up then....I dunno

That was some helpfull advice Rac3rX. So I should try with more power in the back then on front because it's MR huh? OK cool:tup: Thanks for the help!

 

[Leonidae]

some guys say that front braks should be stronger than rear brakes, but, if you strengthen the front brakes too much, front wheels will lock and your car will go straight. that's why I usually use brake settings of 18/22 or even 20/24.. but then, you'd better have really sticky tyres or do the braking while on straight line before turning into the curve..

 

[Greycap]

Actually the neutral balance might be quite perfect to a mid-engined car as if the weight distribution is normally 40/60 it's quite close to 50/50 when braking. Again this is just my opinion and I might be wrong. Naturally the car can't be steered with the brakes so much with neutral brakes.

- EDIT - Just realized: how the hell are you going to be able to enter the JGTC with the Esprit?

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

I dont really think your wrong greycap:tup: But it'll be closer if u increase the rear a tiny bit
But who knows, it might just handle crappy and force me to increase or decrease the front or rear. You never know, it's usually handy if it oversteers a tiny bit so....

 

[Rac3rX]

I would alway try stronger up front then the rear first. However some people have a driving style that requires heavy last second braking and they usually like the rear to lock at the last second to whip the butt of the car arround the corner (I dont drive like this) So AFTER trying all offset F>R set ups, I sugest to try some F<R to see if its more to your liking, but F>R is always the way to go for true race line driving.

Never F<R or neutral for true race line Driving, its neer impossible for the front and rear to require equal braking amounts or more power to the rear, Its almost mathamatically impossible for a car to not have more weight on the front wheels during braking, as the weight transfers, from the rear to the front. The front would have to be so light that the mass weight would have to come from the transfer and equal the weight still on the rear.

Keep in Mind this is a Video game F>R is based on real life principles, one I beleve is taken into account in the game, but people Drive the track in many diferent ways and have many diferent driving styles to have fun. Tru Race line Driving isnt everybodies cup of tea. So if people like to slide there but arround corners with high rear brake settings, its all good.

MR Cars use a lower offset then a FR or FF car as there will still be alot of weight on the rear (Example 6/5 instead of 7/4), But again, MR cars Need alot higher Brakes to get the Butt out, so If your Driving Style is to Brake hard at the last second and you like the butt to get out, try some F<R settings, But really go with the F>R First with low offsets, & move progressively.

 

[ekmatt9]

Noo...Make the car as light as you can. Never set brakes more than 11. It starts "screeching" and it doesn't always stop. I noticed to make the controllers like 4-7 in front and 6-9 in back. It always works for me. If the brake controller are increased, you hear the screeching going on, that means the car isn't completely stopping, the tires could be slipping. And I don't think it's the ABS cause I haven't heard about ABS in GT4. So I just wanted to add my input

 

[FastEddie12]

Rac3rX is definitely talking sense there. 👍

One little thing: the limiting factor for the brakes is actually the tyres. The brakes will only work as well as the tyres will let them. Various tests have been done showing that the "racing brakes" are a waste of money and will not actually improve your braking performance.

Getting a good brake balance, however, is well worthwhile.

 

[Greycap]

I use only 3/3 brakes on my top race cars, partly because I want to save tires a bit and partly because it gives the car better handling under braking. You can try this out yourself: take the 205 T16 Evo2, put the brakes to 10/10 or higher and trail-brake in the first corner of Infineon Raceway. Whoops, you're on the grass. Reduce the brakes to 5/5 or even lower and the problem is gone.

If I am the only one who ends up off the track, maybe there is just something wrong in my settings...

 

[Rac3rX]

some guys say that front braks should be stronger than rear brakes, but, if you strengthen the front brakes too much, front wheels will lock and your car will go straight. that's why I usually use brake settings of 18/22 or even 20/24.. but then, you'd better have really sticky tyres or do the braking while on straight line before turning into the curve..

Those are ridiculously high brakes, try stuff under 8 & watch your lap times drop. \

I would also sugest a F>R set up

If you stenthen your F brakes to 18 to 20 they will lock up on any car. Drop them to 8 front 6 rear for High settings, and 4 front 2 rear as a Low settings.

The maximum braking force applied through the wheels is always equal to the amount of weight of the vehicle supported by that wheel times the coefficient of friction. This is Important Because If your Car is Transfering the weight to the front, the weight suported by the front wheels is increased, and the weight suported by the rear is reduced.

We also need understand what 1g of accelerating/decelerating power is. At ground level gravity tries to make you fall with acceleration at the rate of about 32.1 feet per second per second (shown as fps/sec.) This acceleration (or deceleration if you reduce your speed at that rate) is called '1 g.' Virtually all standard tires lose their 'sticktion' (stick/friction) when experiencing more than about 1.1 g of braking force. When the total braking force is such that your car's forward speed is being reduced at the rate of approximately 32.1 fps/sec, you are decelerating at the rate of 1 g. That is, your braking force then equals the weight of the car. If your car weights 5,000 pounds, then braking at 1 g means you are applying 5,000 pounds of braking force.

Weight Transfer during braking

During braking, weight transfers from the rear of the vehicle to the front. You can calculate the amount of weight transfer involved in any stop knowing only the braking force being used and the ratio of CG (Center of Gravity) height to wheelbase length. For example, if the total braking force is 5,000 pounds, your height is 35 inches off the ground, and your wheelbase is 120.8 inches long, the Equation will look like this:
Weight-Transfer =The Braking Force times the CG ratio
Weight-Transfer = 5000 lbs. * 35/120.8
Weight-Transfer = 5000 lbs. * .2897
Weight-Transfer = 1448 lbs.

If our example Car has a 50/50 weight balance, which has a total weight of 5000lbs pounds, with a 120.8inch wheel base, & the height is 35inches off the ground. When applying 1g of braking force, 1448 lbs is the amount of Weight-Transfer, this will result in a weight balance of 4448lbs/1552lbs front/rear.The total weight of the car still doesn’t change. But the Front is suporting ALOT more weight and will require more braking force. Now think about it if its a FR car with a Big V8 up front, probably a 3250lbs/1750lbs. In the Same braking senerio its ballance would be 4698lbs/302lbs. Im sure you see now why its important to have a F>R brake set up.

Hope it helps

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

Oh yes it helped. Pretty good actually:tup: It seems to sticky into the corners better now since I dont break too late. But I do have a DFP so I might be able to control a higher balance:tup:

Nah I wont do that... It's perfect now m8s, thanks alot.
BTW I'm gonna search for some RUF RGT tips now, thats one b*tch to drive

 

[Rac3rX]

Oh yes it helped. Pretty good actually:tup: It seems to sticky into the corners better now since I dont break too late. But I do have a DFP so I might be able to control a higher balance:tup:

Nah I wont do that... It's perfect now m8s, thanks alot.
BTW I'm gonna search for some RUF RGT tips now, thats one b*tch to drive

No Prob

Look for the RuF Yellow Bird Set up I posted, It makes her alot easyer to drive.

One trick with her is to start with a low stage turbo and Move up as you get comfortable, annd once at full power she is a blast. One of My favorot to drive.

 

[Leonidae]

FYI, RacerX, this brake setup just suits my driving style. i tried the reversed one once, and I just couldn't handle it. same thing for weaker brakes. I'm one of those who prefer to brake hard and late..

 

[Rac3rX]

FYI Leonidae, Thats what I figgured, and said the following

"Keep in Mind this is a Video game F>R is based on real life principles, one I beleve is taken into account in the game, but people Drive the track in many diferent ways and have many diferent driving styles to have fun. Tru Race line Driving isnt everybodies cup of tea. So if people like to slide there butt arround corners with high rear brake settings, its all good."

Alot of people seem to like this style, Its not a way to produce a fast lap time though, while people think they are getting arroud corners quicker its actually the oposite. But like I said "Tru Race line Driving isnt everybodies cup of tea. So if people like to slide there butt arround corners with high rear brake settings, its all good."

 

[Rac3rX]

And Racing Brakes are also important as they delay the fade of the brakes something Im positive is taken into account.

 

[Leonidae]

I use this method because it's the best way to take over the overly careful AI's.. and it minimizes the risk of being rear-ended by idiotic AI drivers..

 

[Rac3rX]

I use this method because it's the best way to take over the overly careful AI's.. and it minimizes the risk of being rear-ended by idiotic AI drivers..

Unfortunalty its not the best way to take over the AI, Simply passing them is all it takes. No need to do a Ricer FLy by then slam the brakes for the corner. If you aproach the corner with the corect speed you can MAXIMIZE the speed you hold through the corner and this maximized your exit speed (As a high exit speed is more benificial then a high entry speed) Following the Best race line will ALWAYS produce a faster lap time. Dont you agree a faster lap time will produce bigger gains against the AI?

Growing distances between you and the AI with Faster lap times, that keeps em out your Butt. If they are in your butt, your not going fast enough. I sometimes get a under dog car and pit her against cars she cant do nothing but pass them with NoS off the line, then I block them the rest of the race to get my points (Doesnt always work, but its fun to mess arround) They bump, but Im going too slow. If you brake corectly for the corner its not simply braking early. Braking too early will have them in your Butt. You need to learn the track and learn how much slowing down your going to need and try and push it to the last second, BUT working within that limit, as Braking too late will have you entering the corner too fast and overshooting your race line completly F-ing your exit speed. Racing like that youd probably Pass the pack on the straights, then get passed in the corners to only pass the pack as it slows for the next corner and repeating this ritual the whole race hopping youl be in first by the time you cross the finish line. I like to lead the pack the whole race.

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

Oh the Ruf RGT is hopeless. I tried it several times since januari but it still wont work, the thing is damn annoying and it slides through the corners too much. The Ruf Yellow Bird might be easier but I haven't got it yet....

With the rest of my money I decided to tune my Jaguar E Type It's awsome, 1:13.352 around midfield Race tires and a wonderfull suspension now. The only problem I have is that if I change gears it goes over the redline very fast and it cant get on top speed onless you redline it. Still gotta figure that one out but it looks beautifull:tup:

 

[Scaff]

I've just added a new post in the GT4 & Brakes thread that runs over how I set brake balance.

Brake Balance Controller settings

I posted it in the GT4 & Brakes thread to keep all my stuff on braking together and because it is a 'stickied' thread, hope this does not cause any offence (because that was not my intent).

Regards

Scaff

P.S. I hope its of use as well!!

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

I take that as an offence to my thread, I mean I got a...........



Offcourse dont sweat it dude lol, I can hardly think of how it could be any offense to me It's one hell of an explaination I love it Just reading it is fun.

 

[Scaff]

I take that as an offence to my thread, I mean I got a...........



Offcourse dont sweat it dude lol, I can hardly think of how it could be any offense to me It's one hell of an explaination I love it Just reading it is fun.

Cool, thanks for that.

Anyway you should get the credit for getting me to actual do something I should have a long time ago, and for giving me something more interesting to think about that work (my boss might disagree - but as I'm working from home today I don't much care).

Ta

Scaff

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

Oh thats cool. No problem I can say then

It's one hell of an explaination, it's cool!!