Brake Balance

[GoTham-R]

Important: try not to brake when the car is turning. IF the problem continues:
Reduce the braking pressure in the LSD (form 20 to 14 for example), and a braking balance, for example, 6/4. (If it oversteers, usually more brake in the front).
The rest is practice.

 

[Bluez_Freak]

Id doubt that, maximum braking could possibly be achieved with a 2:1 setting, if the brakes are at the point just before they lock up.

10:10 would certainly lock the brakes (definetely the back as it has less of a load on the rear than the front under braking).


Ill use some random numbers to illustrate my point.
A ratio of 3:1 could provide maximum braking under 100% brake pedal depression, which is good, occasionally you'll want this. So that gives you the full movement of the pedal to choose the right amount of braking, alot more room for different levels of braking.

However, a ratio of 9:3 might only give maximum braking with 33% brake pedal depression, which means you have much less movement of the pedal to control differing brake levels.

Im not sure that a 9 is 3 times stronger than a 3 on the "strength" of the brakes. I don't think the difference is that big, but I hope you get what im trying to say.

I was saying about 10:10 with ABS ON = max power on the brakes with no lockups due to ABS presence.

Regarding 3:1 and 9:3 example I get your point, but that would render the brake balance controller mostly a "pedal sensitivity/saturation" controller that should be under the game settings - not under the car tuning settings.

 

[Bluez_Freak]

Important: try not to brake when the car is turning. IF the problem continues:
Reduce the braking pressure in the LSD (form 20 to 14 for example), and a braking balance, for example, 6/4. (If it oversteers, usually more brake in the front).
The rest is practice.

I started the thread with stock cars in mind i.e. no LSD to mess with.

I am just trying to understand the logic of how this thing works without involving any other extra tuning upgrades/settings.

 

[gee_sp0t]

I use a G27 and drive witih no aids. A couple of important things to remember...

- Press brake all the way to floor before starting racing session to calibrate stop point on the pedal

- Braking is PROGRESSIVE, you can't just slam the pedal to the floor no matter what your bias settings are. Specifically when stopping from high-speed, you have to start with slight pressure and gradually apply more and more as the car slows down. Don't be afraid to build the pressure rapidly (depending on tires) but certainly don't whammo, blammo slam the pedal down.

I typically find I set my brake bias (annoyingly have to change it, can't save the darn setups for each car) depending on tires.

Comforts: 3/1, maybe 4/2

Sports: 5/2 or 5/3, not typically any heavier on the front bias.

Racing: 7/4 or 7/3

Seems to work as a general rule of thumb for me but there are many exceptions. I find with a lot of high-HP FR cars, regardless of tires, I only ever run 1 or 2 on the rear bias.

Great example was the Mustang challenge, that car oversteered like a MOFO under braking with anything more than a 2 on the rear bias, I think my final setting that I preferred for that car with those tires was actually 3/1.

 

[Sohvakettu]

I think the brake balance is quite irrelevant as long as ABS is kept on.The ABS works as a real time brake balance adjustor on each individual wheel lessening the braking force on the wheels that are about to lock.

Anyways the stopping distance is dictated by the tire grip and not brakes (as long as brakes are strong enough to lock the wheels).

 

[GoTham-R]

I started the thread with stock cars in mind i.e. no LSD to mess with.

I am just trying to understand the logic of how this thing works without involving any other extra tuning upgrades/settings.

The game tries to represent how the car would feel in the real life.
Then, if you drive the car like this in the real life, the car should response like this. Can be two things:
-The car goes like this.
-You're not driving it well. (The driving style between the different wheel drive cars is not the same. Have in mind that the engine position is also important).

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Basically you can set the amount of brake force applied to the front and rear tyres.
Eg. 6:4 is 60%/40% to the front and rear. Naturally 10/10 is never the answer as the wheels will just lock up and as I said before the best braking happens when the wheel are on the edge of locking up.

The object of changing is to ensure that all tyres are doing the same "amount" of braking, as you get the most stopping force when the tyres are on the edge of grip. But, this would depend on the weight distribution of the car itself, this weight distribution does change under braking as it transfers forward under braking.

Generally, a little more brake bias towards the front is the answer as the load under braking will be higher on the front so to ensure all brakes are doing the same amount of "work" thats the answer.

So to sum up, more bias on the front is usually the answer, so that all wheels will be doing maximum amount of braking they can before locking up. However you will need to fiddle with this as the front wheels will usually be the first to lock up and you will loose steering. More bias to the back will lock the rear wheels and the back end will move out.

Try not to use brake bias for inducing oversteer though, there are far better ways of doing that and it usually increases your braking distances on the whole.

That has been my approach (I generally use 7/6) 👍

 

[carn_the_pies]

Hi Guys,
What balance do you guys like on the toms castrols supra 97?

 

[Motor City Hami]

Does a higher number indeed mean stronger brakes or are the numbers just relavent to each other for balance? Meaning that 3/3 is the same as 5/5 or 10/10. And 10/1 would be the most balance difference you could apply.

There was a huge amount of debate around this in GT4 and I don't think I ever saw a difinitive resolution on the subject. I know that people are saying that higher is stronger, but has anyone really tested it?

 

[Bluez_Freak]

Does a higher number indeed mean stronger brakes or are the numbers just relavent to each other for balance? Meaning that 3/3 is the same as 5/5 or 10/10. And 10/1 would be the most balance difference you could apply.

Did some tests in Monza with 1/1 and 10/10 brakes - all times with ABS to 1. Indeed the 10/10 setting showed slightly higher Gs under braking and shorter braking distances.

So I am pretty sure it means stronger brakes, not just sensitivity of the pedal like it was mentioned above.

 

[jakubala]

Some logical facts and some findings I d like to share with you to shed some light on this topic for those who seem to be confused:
- I testdrive with ABS off (fanatec gt 3 wheel) because with no ABS interfeering you have the best conditions to judge the brakes
-the brake balance numbers represent not only the balance ratio but also the strenght of the brakes so 1-1 value is not the same as 5-5 or 10-10 (by equally depressed pedal)
-by equally depressed braking pedal the higher the numbers the stronger the braking but once the brakes are locked it makes no difference whether the numbers are higher or lower because tyres reached and exceeded their maximum grip so basicaly the main difference between lets say 4-4 and 7-7 is that you reach the same braking efect only the pedal must be depressed to different position (if you feel your brakes lock too quickly lower the numbers and you will have more room to play in until the brakes lock)
- the numbers DO NOT represent absolute braking force - when set to 0 values the brakes still brake. 10 does not mean that the brakes are twice as strong as 5 or ten times stronger than 1. PD basicly gave you through this 10 level scale ability to influence only certain percentage of the absolut braking force to finetune your brakes.
- There is no evidence that pd set the absolute brake balance to 50 5O. In contrary I think the opposite is truth simply because what I mentioned above plus it would make really no sence to do it this way when it is so easy for them to set it according to real cars.
-the higher the numbers in front tyres the more stable and understeery the higher the numbers in rear the more unstable and oversteery while braking
- unfortunetly I have not noticed decrease of braking effectivness once you exceed the traction capacity of the tyres and the wheels lock as it is in real life (so the fastest way to stop the car on the straight is to slam the brakes and make them lock which is not correct - ofcourse still talking about abs off)

 

[niky]

10/10 gets you to locked brakes quicker, but with ABS on, it does indeed stop the car much faster... as long as the brakes are balanced. I've used this to good effect on some cars.

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Are you sure there's no decrease in braking force after lock? When the tires go red under braking, it feels like you're sliding on ice.

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There is some evidence that the 5/5 brake balance is absolute... though it'd be difficult to prove this without back-to-back real life drives in the cars in question. Many cars' behavior (or lack of it) under braking can be adjusted by sliding the bias back and forth.

What PD apparently did (I say apparently, because we can't tell), is make the brakes so that at, say, 5/5 with ABS, the car would brake approximately as well as in real life. But they did not model the proper bias, which is why many front-engined cars lock their rears too easily with the ABS off, and some mid or rear engined cars have way too much front bias, and plow under braking. Now this is "apparently", because I've never driven a Ford GT on track in real life, and I don't know if it plows like a cow (It well might)... but from some cars I've driven in the game, both with and without ABS, it seems that the standard setting is off somewhat. Though some do seem spot-on.

In the end, it's all about testing and personal preference. You can basically throw "completely realistic" out the window and settle for "somewhat realistic but better" by fiddling with the balance.

 

[SheerTerroir]

This is a great thread. Can somebody also clarify the impact of Braking Sensitivity in LSD upon braking strength and the relationship between these?

Sheer

 

[Sohvakettu]

This is a great thread. Can somebody also clarify the impact of Braking Sensitivity in LSD upon braking strength and the relationship between these?

Sheer

I don't think the LSD setting has anything to do with braking directly. Isn't it actually called deceleration sensitivity? Anyways that what it propably is (to me differential tuning is comparable to black magic ). It controls the torque split between wheels under deceleration.

 

[ID_racing]

Basically you can set the amount of brake force applied to the front and rear tyres.
Eg. 6:4 is 60%/40% to the front and rear.

In my understanding this seems to be true. 60% and 40% equals 100% of the cars brake force, So what happens if the setting is lets say 8/7, sending 80% of the force to the front, and 70% (!) to the rear. Totalling 150% of the cars brake force!! How can the cars brake force suddenly increase by 50% ?

That doesnt make any sense. Valid brake force entries must total 100%, like 5/5, 6/4, 4/6, 8/2, 2/8 etc.

Is this a wrong assumption?

 

[Motor City Hami]

This is a great thread. Can somebody also clarify the impact of Braking Sensitivity in LSD upon braking strength and the relationship between these?

Sheer

The LSD can be used to either stabilize or upset the car under braking, but also has affect when coasting. Anytime you are off throttle, the LSD braking or Decelleration is in affect. I have seen that the LSD tends to have affect all the way through the corner from initial lift off the throttle all the way through apex until throttle is applied again. The brake balance seems to help me most after I have the LSD set correctly. With the LSD set right, I am finding that I will only get brake lock at turn in, if I hadn't started braking early enough. Only at turn in will the car indicate to me which set of tires is locking up first. Then I will adjust the brake balance.

I do 90% of it with the LSD and the brake balance is just a fine tune.

 

[Bluez_Freak]

BTW brake balance effects are very noticeable with ABS OFF.

Whoever tries to figure out / tune brake balance with ABS ON is just guessing. IMHO ofcourse.

 

[NMRacing]

That doesnt make any sense. Valid brake force entries must total 100%, like 5/5, 6/4, 4/6, 8/2, 2/8 etc.

Is this a wrong assumption?

Yes, Its a wrong assumption. I run brake balance really low on most cars,and It is defiantly not a percentage, set brake-force to 0:0 and the car will still brake. Some cars will still lock wheels with the brake force at 0, the Nissan 370z is one such example on racing soft tires the rear brakes will still lock with a setting of 0 of course with ABS on you cant feel it so nobody will notice it.

One thing to remember is that brake force is dependent on 2 things, weight over the wheels (vehicle weight + downforce + load transfer) and tire compound.

Lowering the vehicle weight will mean lowering the braking force, stiffening the springs will also require decreasing the braking force as you are removing the transfer of weight from the front therefore decreasing grip.

Anybody who is running around with brake settings like 6/7 or in most cases higher than 5 has probably never done any serious brake testing to start with.

Yes it "works" with ABS on, but it doesn't, settings like this are relying on the rears to lock and slide and get caught by the ABS and lock and slide again, it unsettles the cars under braking and actually causes more tuning headaches than what it corrects.

Think of brake tuning like tuning the LSD, you cant tune an LSD with traction control on and still understand what is happening, nor can you tune brake balance and understand what is happening with TCS on

 

[TimberW]

I noticed that during online touge races, when I run my brakes balance too low, I always knock the rear of my opponents cars. I have to run it higher to stop faster. I guess it's different when you are running for the fastest lap and racing head on at the same time.

Do you guys have this issue as well?