Brake Balance

[banckzy]

sorry if this has been mentioned before but i want clarity.... has anybody gotten their head around the brake balance? i.e. what is best to use? does it even matter if BoP is on?

I thought break balance was designed to go alongside the weighting of the car?

I always set mine to front -2, however I don't know if this is actually making any difference.... can anybody shed some light?

and yes, I am a total noob

 

[GTWelsh]

Whatever the default front to rear brake bias is, get's adjusted with that option. More front bias makes the front-brakes do more of the braking, which results usually in understeer when braking and turning, and the opposite for the rear brakes.

 

[Shottah072]

In short:

Balance to front is shorter stopping distance worse turn in.
Balance to back is longer stopping distance better turn in.

With the balance at the front you have more traction on front wheels to stop and less to turn. With the balance at the back you have less traction on front to stop and more to turn.

I run 2-3 to the back as i rely heavy on trailbraking into a corner.

 

[Scaff]

In short:

Balance to front is shorter stopping distance worse turn in.
Balance to back is longer stopping distance better turn in.

Given that tyres and not braking force should be the limiting factor when braking (unless you have drums all round - and no GT has ever modelled brakes that well), if GTS is doing this then its wrong in so many ways (or if I'm being very, very kind its a massive oversimplification).

In reality brake bias should be set to maximise each of the tyres available grip levels, and should (on road or track) always be front biased overall as a result (as under braking the front tyres are always going to have move available traction, as dictated by load transfer).

With the balance at the front you have more traction on front wheels to stop and less to turn. With the balance at the back you have less traction on front to stop and more to turn.

I run 2-3 to the back as i rely heavy on trailbraking into a corner.

Trail braking shouldn't require a rear brake bias at all.

However its worth noting that GTS still has the same issues that past titles have with regard to brake bias, which is that if you rub ABS it becomes pretty much irrelevant, as the ABS has a form of forced brake force distribution that pretty much overrides it

 

[phl0w]

With people usually tieing "under" to (-) and "over" to (+) in their respective languages, and balance meaning trying for (0), you can remember this easy guideline for GTS:
car under(-)steers -> (+) bb
car over(+)steers -> (-) bb

Of course there's much more to brake bias like Shottah072's, and Scaff's posts hint at, not to forget that you should always tune bb without ABS, but my approach works for GTS pretty well, considering that bb seems to effect your cars behavior not just under braking in GTS.

Edit: Mis-quoted

 

[GTWelsh]

considering that bb seems to effect your cars behavior not just under braking in GTS.

Can't say I agree with this to be honest. I tried looking for this effect recently and just don't see it.

 

[phl0w]

I tried looking for this effect recently and just don't see it.

Might be confirmation bias (pun intended) seeing I read about it a couple of times, but I am under the impression that bb influences your car in corners that don't need braking to some degree as well.

 

[LBDN123]

I find brake bias tends to differ from car to car and needs altering as the tyre wear reduces.

But in simple terms, front bb means shorter braking distance and rear bb longer but better for trail braking

Each has a positive/ negative

To a degree, what scaff says in correct in real life but on games it doesnt replicate real life well enough.

I believe, although dont quote me on it as i was only told this, that most of the finalists on the f1 esports event were predominately running maximum rear brake bias. Admittedly a different game though but you get the idea.

Although i dread to imagine driving a 911 with bb completely at the rear.

 

[banckzy]

loving the input here, very insightful... but what do you mean by trail braking?

EDIT: now know the definition.... ahh the powers of google

 

[Stotty]

In GT6, I used rear brake bias on almost every car to some extent.

In GTS, I'm generally using front bias, but this may be because I'm almost exclusively driving mid engine or rear engine cars. The RSR stops more effectively and trail brakes more effectively for me with a balance of -2... which I assume is needed to get more of the weight on to a light front.

When I drive front engined cars, I tend to use 0

How you brake may effect what balance works for you.

 

[Shottah072]

Given that tyres and not braking force should be the limiting factor when braking (unless you have drums all round - and no GT has ever modelled brakes that well), if GTS is doing this then its wrong in so many ways (or if I'm being very, very kind its a massive oversimplification).

In reality brake bias should be set to maximise each of the tyres available grip levels, and should (on road or track) always be front biased overall as a result (as under braking the front tyres are always going to have move available traction, as dictated by load transfer).



Trail braking shouldn't require a rear brake bias at all.

However its worth noting that GTS still has the same issues that past titles have with regard to brake bias, which is that if you rub ABS it becomes pretty much irrelevant, as the ABS has a form of forced brake force distribution that pretty much overrides it

In reality most drivers adjust brake bias depending on corner or sector. For threshold braking they move forward for trailbraking they move rearward.

 

[LBDN123]

In reality most drivers adjust brake bias depending on corner or sector. For threshold braking they move forward for trailbraking they move rearward.

I suppose the best example of this is Schumacher who would constantly do this all lap and equally Rosberg who started to adopt this when he joined Mercedes alongside Michael.

 

[Scaff]

In reality most drivers adjust brake bias depending on corner or sector.

If the car allows it they certainly do, however the overall bias will still always be towards the front and a tweak to the rear (while still having an overall front bias) doesn't mean you will always have longer stopping distances.

For threshold braking they move forward for trailbraking they move rearward.

Sorry but physics simply doesn't back that up at all. For maximum threshold braking the bias needs to be set to allow the potential of all four tyres to be used, that will of course vary depending on the corner, speed you are braking from and the speed you need to brake down to; as such you may need to move the bias forward or backwards depending on the previous corner, or if bias is not adjustable on the car then you set it for the most important corners on the track.

In regard to trail braking, you are still looking to maximise the braking potential of all four tyres, so once again it can vary depending on the corner, speed, etc; and a closer to neutral bias can actually be probklematic when trail braking.

"if the brake bias is set to nearly neutral (instead of the usual front-bias), heavy braking may cause the rear wheels to lock, effectively causing the vehicle to spin"
http://www.racingonthecheap.com/trail-braking/

Its simply (in reality and any decent sim) not as easy as ' back = trailbrake and front = threshold'

Stoptech have a wide range of white papers that go into a lot of detail about how brake bias should be set-up. how braking systems work and a lot more.

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers

 

[ColinNZ]

sorry if this has been mentioned before but i want clarity.... has anybody gotten their head around the brake balance? i.e. what is best to use? does it even matter if BoP is on?

I thought break balance was designed to go alongside the weighting of the car?

I always set mine to front -2, however I don't know if this is actually making any difference.... can anybody shed some light?

and yes, I am a total noob

Thank you for asking about this, I've found the answers very insightful. I still have so much to learn.

 

[LBDN123]

Whilst i note what scaff is saying you will tend to find in games the end result is not quite as real life.

You tend to find in set up options for a number of computer games it will describe BB in simple terms as frontwards for shorter stopping and rearwards for longer.

The problem is real life physics and computer games dont match so its purely down to either how someone exploits a set up or how it suits their driving style.

 

[Shottah072]

If the car allows it they certainly do, however the overall bias will still always be towards the front and a tweak to the rear (while still having an overall front bias) doesn't mean you will always have longer stopping distances.

Yes your correct. But in GTS the bias is not neutral at 0 i believe it is standard forward biased like you say. The +5 and -5 are just the small tweaks from the standard bias we can make. Maybe i should have been more clear.

Sorry but physics simply doesn't back that up at all. For maximum threshold braking the bias needs to be set to allow the potential of all four tyres to be used, that will of course vary depending on the corner, speed you are braking from and the speed you need to brake down to; as such you may need to move the bias forward or backwards depending on the previous corner, or if bias is not adjustable on the car then you set it for the most important corners on the track.

In regard to trail braking, you are still looking to maximise the braking potential of all four tyres, so once again it can vary depending on the corner, speed, etc; and a closer to neutral bias can actually be probklematic when trail braking.

Physics does back it up or they wouldnt do it but ofcouse other factors are in play as well.

You are correct when it comes to threshold braking but wrong when it comes to trailbraking. Yes you still want to have maximum brake potential on all tires but your max potential is gonna be lower when you also want to turn at the same time, especially on the front as thats were most of the braking and turning is done. You cant have both, its a trade off. By moving rearward you are using less of the front tires traction to stop so you can use more to change direction.

 

[Scaff]

Yes your correct. But in GTS the bias is not neutral at 0 i believe it is standard forward biased like you say. The +5 and -5 are just the small tweaks from the standard bias we can make. Maybe i should have been more clear.

While I think this may be the case I've never seen it proven. Its is however indicative of the issues that GTS (and past titles) have with tuning and the physics engine.

Physics does back it up or they wouldnt do it but ofcouse other factors are in play as well.

You are correct when it comes to threshold braking but wrong when it comes to trailbraking. Yes you still want to have maximum brake potential on all tires but your max potential is gonna be lower when you also want to turn at the same time, especially on the front as thats were most of the braking and turning is done. You cant have both, its a trade off. By moving rearward you are using less of the front tires traction to stop so you can use more to change direction.

If every corner on a circuit has no corners for which you needed straight-line braking before you move into trail braking you would be correct, but that's almost never the case. As such moving brake bias towards the rear and away from the maximum straight line performance you are extending the braking distance (and removing some of the advantage of trail braking in the first place ). You also run the risk of making the car less stable during both stages of braking (initial and trail).

Now while a slight move of bias to the rear may help with trail braking, its a minor factor in comparison to the rest of the tools available (just about every suspension set-up option, and your foot and the brake pedal) to balance traction across the four tyres. This is particularly true given that when cornering you have to account for both longitudinal and lateral load transfer, and brake bias is only going to assist with one of those, while every other suspension tuning tool deals with both.

In contrast we have one tool to maximise straight line braking performance, and that's brake bias.

The reason this works with GTS is not because its an effective real world tool for the job, but because GTS has a dumb'd down physics and tyre model that doesn't correctly account for a lot of these factors.

 

[D-Max]

It must just be me, but when I adjust brake balance either way, my braking distances are longer! I hate changing my bias now. Maybe it’s just me but haven’t found any benefit from it

 

[FerrellJ]

I've always understood trail braking to be about controlling the mass balance/pitch of the car. That has more to do with how much braking (deceleration) is being done, not the balance of the brakes. I wouldn't say they are unrelated but I also wouldn't say there is a direct correlation. You can still trail brake just fine with heavy front bias. I find brake bias has a much, much greater impact on initial turn in.

To that end, I've never seen mention of brake bias in discussions about trail braking by professionals.

It must just be me, but when I adjust brake balance either way, my braking distances are longer! I hate changing my bias now. Maybe it’s just me but haven’t found any benefit from it

Turn ABS off when tuning for brake bias. I start by setting it as far back as it will go without causing handling issues. As long as you aren't locking up the rears (I've yet to find a car in GTS that can), your braking distances should be shorter. Then it's just a matter of tuning it so you don't lose control.

You will still probably be locking the front tires under hard braking but that doesn't automatically mean you are losing braking efficiency- the tires should still tolerate some lockup without sacrificing grip.

 

[Shottah072]

As such moving brake bias towards the rear and away from the maximum straight line performance you are extending the braking distance (and removing some of the advantage of trail braking in the first place ). You also run the risk of making the car less stable during both stages of braking (initial and trail).

Yes dont overdo it. Just a little rearward of optimal straightline will help turn in without extending threshold for to long and locking the rear tires.

Now while a slight move of bias to the rear may help with trail braking, its a minor factor in comparison to the rest of the tools available (just about every suspension set-up option, and your foot and the brake pedal) to balance traction across the four tyres. This is particularly true given that when cornering you have to account for both longitudinal and lateral load transfer, and brake bias is only going to assist with one of those, while every other suspension tuning tool deals with both.

In contrast we have one tool to maximise straight line braking performance, and that's brake bias.

Yes true but in BoP races our only tool is BB.

The reason this works with GTS is not because its an effective real world tool for the job, but because GTS has a dumb'd down physics and tyre model that doesn't correctly account for a lot of these factors.

Also true lol.

 

[EmArA]

rear bias all the way but be aware of any potential snap...

 

[giant growth]

I go as much to the rear as I can which makes the car rotate better under braking. Too much, though, and it will over rotate and skid, especially if you come off the brakes fast.

 

[BSDShoes]

For me it's:

FR: -2 to -3
FF: -1 to 0
MR: -2 to +1
AWD: +3 to +4

With some cars like the Corvette C7 it rotates well around corners with heavy front bias, MR's tend to lose control if bias is too far to the rear, and AWD's slows down way better with rear bias.

 

[GBO Possum]

Given that tyres and not braking force should be the limiting factor when braking

Try the Shelby Cobra with RSS tires
The brakes are the limiting factor IMHO

 

[Gordjy]

I'm not an expert, but i'll give a thought.

Assuming by the information, that GTS BB "0" shares the brake load on the front and brake, opens up some options.

The position of the center of mass is important and GTS does not tell us what is the wheight distribution on the axels.
Some one said that ABS over writes all of this, and in some extent is true, at least the standart setting of ABS. Because it will engage sooner if the front or rear is so strong that easily blocks the tyre. But it does has consequences, and even with ABS in normal you will notice. So finding a good balance is important, but with ABS on normal, and everyone driving pushing the brake to the max when starts braking the advantage will be less noticable. Saying that with ABS normal, depending on the car, and there are exceptions, -2 to +2 is more than enough to give a little edge, especially for who trailbrakes efficiently, to help rotate the car.

Leaving the ABS normal aside and start looking to weak or none, than the balacing becames very important indeed, and many factors play a major role.
Like someone said, GTS, unlike other sims, doesnt let you tweak the brake power, so is always 100% in the power specific to the car or group (so we assume).
Wheight distribuition
Aerodynamics
Suspension system response

When trying to use ABS weak or none, you will forcefully need to trailbrake and most cases even go under 100% brake in straight line to maximize braking distance. Here the balance of the brake will play a major role, but before that you driving ability will be even more important.

As a overall understanding of the effect what i understand is (regarding GTS and not real life - like some said real life tends allways to the front):
FF: normally the cars that like the most front bias, because the back is too light and the the traction is on front
FR: more balance but still more to the front, not so much as FF because traction is on the back
MR: the more balance cars, with mayby little to the back
AWD: most cars is like the FF in BB choice, although playing with the torque ratio tends to make you adjust the BB again

Mayby im dead wrong but its my take on that.

 

[barkohba]

Just wanted to add some insight into the "mysterious" way in which BB works within GTS, as there's so much assumption going on in the posts above.

BB in GTS is NOT a sweep from front to back bias, but rather a small adjustment starting from the default setup of the car - which in MOST cars would be 60 - 40 to the front. Some cars, like LMP1 Toyota or Sauber C9 seem to have an even stronger bias to the front, while others have somewhere between 55-60% to the front, such as many GT3 cars, or even the Ferrari F40 and McLaren F1.

After going back and forth between Assetto Corsa and GTS to figure out how the BB works in GTS, i found out that at least in the Ferrari F40 and GT3 cars (I actually only tested the 650S GT3 for reference), the BB at 5 to the front behaves like about 68% to the front in AC, and 5 to the rear in GTS is equivalent to about 53-47 in AC. So Basically, in GTS the BB works as a slight +/-10% adjustment over or under the standard BB setup of each specific car, not 100% to the front all the way to 100% to the back.

This can easily be seen by testing it with ABS off. Push the BB all the way tot the rear, and slam the breaks - check the replay. You'll instantly see how the front tire STILL lock up BEFORE the back ones. The breaking power also depends on the break balance, as whener you move the break balance beyond 0 (be it to the rear or front), break pressure gradually decreases slowly. I didn't make a video myself, but I did find this video from the Beta stages:



I reiterate: Anyone can test themselves and check the replay for clear confirmation - even when moving the BB all the way to the back in GTS, the bias is still in the front, and the front wheels lock up first. This also makes sense, as pushing the break bias to the rear anywhere to more than 50% makes a car very unstalbe and basically unusable in any situation under breaking.

The only REAL problem with GTS's breaking "physics" is not a physics one at all, but lack of a setup option - namely break PRESSURE. I find that many cars lock up too easily even at 60% break pedal travel, which is a bit unrealistic, at least if we compare to AC where they lock up at 75-80% break pressure (i know in reality the break pedal behaves closer to how a load-cell pedal set would, but i don't have one so I'm relying on pedal travel). However I find that just moving the break balance to 4-5 to the rear on cars that should be driven without ABS (Older cars like the F40, group c protoypes, GT500 cars (aka gr2), LMP1 cars and GTE cars like the Porsche RSR).

 

[Vader86]

I turn most cars to the rear, 2-3-4, for turn in purposes. I've yet to lock up the rears as a result.

Midengine cars don't like that much to the rear, so its more like 1-2 if anything.

 

[cleanLX]

BB in GTS is NOT a sweep from front to back bias, but rather a small adjustment starting from the default setup of the car - which in MOST cars would be 60 - 40 to the front. Some cars, like LMP1 Toyota or Sauber C9 seem to have an even stronger bias to the front, while others have somewhere between 55-60% to the front, such as many GT3 cars, or even the Ferrari F40 and McLaren F1.

After going back and forth between Assetto Corsa and GTS to figure out how the BB works in GTS, i found out that at least in the Ferrari F40 and GT3 cars (I actually only tested the 650S GT3 for reference), the BB at 5 to the front behaves like about 68% to the front in AC, and 5 to the rear in GTS is equivalent to about 53-47 in AC. So Basically, in GTS the BB works as a slight +/-10% adjustment over or under the standard BB setup of each specific car, not 100% to the front all the way to 100% to the back.

Very helpful, thanks... guess I prefer the older GT game settings where you knew exactly what you were doing front and rear independently.

Wheight distribuition
Aerodynamics
Suspension system response

100%.

 

[lav01]

I would actually like to know, this for a video game. Is it negative for rears or fronts? I am not sure if the programmers know. Manufactures want your pile of crap to push, since most will stay on the brakes and avoid accidents. That is not the fast way around a race track. That is why I usually try and just use them as they come. In real life almost all cars have a ton more front balance, because most people cannot drive. So, the cars push like crazy, if you change the balance to the back they will stop better, in real life. If it is pushing you keep your foot on the brake if you suck and most people do. Less accidents. A loose car, more law suits. Again, it is just a game. Not real life. GAME. not a simulator.

edit: use the game cars as they are. mine are not stock since the 'engineers' that cant drive anyway. I am going to fix their mistakes, since I want a car worth a crap. Game, It is just a game.

edit2: sorry, I will fix that stuff in real life. In game I usually just drive them stock.