Brake Balance

[rk]

no shiz my problem is its simulated a bit more than id like and id like it to be simulated more like my r32 or focus rs but i cant find the tuning tool to do this or the tuning tools i have are simply not enough to rid the car of the overly simulated understeer during even the sligthest braking. and, no, im not entirely sure how to increase grip during braking so some help would be appreciated

I would be happy to review your settings and offer recomendations; I am not sure of the appropriate means, if you didn't want to post off topic, you could message me, or you could start a thread (give me a heads up), then possibly others could benefit from our exchange...

 

[megashawn]

I don't know how many people here have actually driven a real car at high speeds, but, this can help shed some light on setting up brakes.

Before GT, I had a 280zx that was good for about 160mph. I could out corner almost anyone, whatever. Now, when I'm coming into a 35mph at around 120, need to brake to 75 to make the turn in my lane, I don't stand on the break pedal, but I tap it.

See, in GT, the tendancy is to just hold the breaks. This is where alot of people have problems. Don't hold the breaks, tap them, release, tap, release, etc. It takes practice, but you can stop much faster doing this, then holding them to the max.

In real life, performance cars, and really, almost any car your FRONT brakes are 90% of your stopping force. Even on bikes this is true. It logically follows that in GT, a driving simulator, this standard would hold true.

If for instance your coming down Apricot hill, the second straight, into the hard right hander, and you hold the brakes, you won't be able to turn the car. If you break, release, turn, break some more, etc, you will be able to line up better for the turn.

Same holds true for throttling. Many people I know simply drive this game wide open. Whichever controller you use, you must learn to use the full range of accel, braking, and steering, not simply the maximum.

Think about it, when driving, how often do you turn the wheel all the way to the right to make a simple turn, or, stand on the throttle coming out of the turn, or apply max brakes coming into the turn?

Basically, as a rule of thumb, front brakes should always be stronger then the rear brakes. I usually run 11/6 or 14/8. If your car is unstable under decelleration, check out your LSD DECEL Settings. Usually these are set to "10" default. I normally turn my down a lil bit, but you can help stabilize your car by turning it up.

But as with all things in life, moderation is key. To much water can kill you, and, so can to much braking.

BTW, I was young and stupid when I used to drive my Z as I described above. I've been driving most my life, and, do not recommend such behaviour to that average person. I'm lucky to be living.

 

[rk]

Excellent post and quite informative, however I would like to reflect on a few points:

Now, when I'm coming into a 35mph at around 120, need to brake to 75 to make the turn in my lane, I don't stand on the break pedal, but I tap it.

See, in GT, the tendancy is to just hold the breaks. This is where alot of people have problems. Don't hold the breaks, tap them, release, tap, release, etc. It takes practice, but you can stop much faster doing this, then holding them to the max.

I believe the technique you are describing is called "cadence braking" and if so, without discussing the veracity of such maneuver, I would refer you to Scaff's thread on brakes which has now been stickied (congratulations to Scaff), the sublect was covered and compared to other braking techniques:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58993&page=1&pp=20

In real life, performance cars, and really, almost any car your FRONT brakes are 90% of your stopping force. Even on bikes this is true. It logically follows that in GT, a driving simulator, this standard would hold true.

The whole idea of racing suspensions is to be able to make adjustments to improve performance and do things like minimize the effect of weight transfer during braking. If you do not believe this is possible, imagine for a second an otherwise normal 280zx which has been modified with booms or struts that hold the front wheels 20' in front of the bumper, what kind of traction and speed would you need to place 90 percent of the cars weight over those tires in braking? Granted such extremes are far from practical, but the illustration should serve to show there are gains to be made in terms of weight transfer, that is why race vehicles carry the (unsprung) weight of excellent- versus nominal- rear brakes.

Basically, as a rule of thumb, front brakes should always be stronger then the rear brakes. I usually run 11/6 or 14/8. If your car is unstable under decelleration, check out your LSD DECEL Settings. Usually these are set to "10" default. I normally turn my down a lil bit, but you can help stabilize your car by turning it up.

But as with all things in life, moderation is key. To much water can kill you, and, so can to much braking.

Finally, I recommend you review your brake testing/adjustment procedure. In GT3 the setting was relative, but in GT4 the setting is almost certainly absolute. I have found an optimal value of 3 (what do you know, default) for most cars equipped with race tires. Certainly there are exceptions, but if what I say is true, then setting higher than optimal should overwhelm the abs and cause loss of traction for that wheel pair, a nice trick if the pair is in the rear and you want turn in oversteer.
Also, I believe people with wheels (and pedals) can set brakes higher because it is easier to modulate based on feedback and the screen indicator, just as controller users (myself included) seem to prefer a little tcs, but of course, I am a confirmed masher.

 

[Scaff]

I don't know how many people here have actually driven a real car at high speeds, but, this can help shed some light on setting up brakes.

Before GT, I had a 280zx that was good for about 160mph. I could out corner almost anyone, whatever. Now, when I'm coming into a 35mph at around 120, need to brake to 75 to make the turn in my lane, I don't stand on the break pedal, but I tap it.

See, in GT, the tendancy is to just hold the breaks. This is where alot of people have problems. Don't hold the breaks, tap them, release, tap, release, etc. It takes practice, but you can stop much faster doing this, then holding them to the max.

As rk said in his post above, if you are talking about "cadence braking", you are right that it is quicker than using maximum braking and locking up the tyres.

It is not however quicker than threshold braking, using the maximum avaliable grip of your tyres to slow the car will always be more effective than exceedingthe limit and then releasing the brakes to get grip back. Cadence braking also has the downside that you get weight transfer constantly from front to rear and back again, this can cause massive problems for the handling balance of the car.

It may however just be that using the term tap has thrown us a bit off track. It is also a bit worring that you refer to slowing from high speeds in real life by tapping the brakes, again I would have to disagree that this is the most effective method when slowwing from high speed (and I do teach people this stuff), the brakes should be applied quickly, but smoothly to the maximum braking force that the tyres can take is being used. This should be maintained (by modulating the braking force) until you able to trail brake into the corner, gradually trading brakes for constant throttle, only feeding in the throttle once you have apexed the corner.

In real life, performance cars, and really, almost any car your FRONT brakes are 90% of your stopping force. Even on bikes this is true. It logically follows that in GT, a driving simulator, this standard would hold true.

If for instance your coming down Apricot hill, the second straight, into the hard right hander, and you hold the brakes, you won't be able to turn the car. If you break, release, turn, break some more, etc, you will be able to line up better for the turn.

Again I would have to take issue with your claim that front brakes are 90% of the stopping force of a car, if your front brakes are doing 90% of the work and your rears only 10, then the fronts are going to lock up while the rears are doing hardly any work at all.

You are correct in observing that the balance should be biased towards the front in the vast majority of cars, however the ratio you have suggested is just way to high and would increase your braking distances.

I would suggest you have a read of the following white paper written by a company that manufacturers and set-up race brakes.

How to set Brake Bias

Same holds true for throttling. Many people I know simply drive this game wide open. Whichever controller you use, you must learn to use the full range of accel, braking, and steering, not simply the maximum.

Think about it, when driving, how often do you turn the wheel all the way to the right to make a simple turn, or, stand on the throttle coming out of the turn, or apply max brakes coming into the turn?

Basically, as a rule of thumb, front brakes should always be stronger then the rear brakes. I usually run 11/6 or 14/8. If your car is unstable under decelleration, check out your LSD DECEL Settings. Usually these are set to "10" default. I normally turn my down a lil bit, but you can help stabilize your car by turning it up.

But as with all things in life, moderation is key. To much water can kill you, and, so can to much braking.

BTW, I was young and stupid when I used to drive my Z as I described above. I've been driving most my life, and, do not recommend such behaviour to that average person. I'm lucky to be living.

No problem with any of this, a very good point with regard to the use of the throttle when exiting a corner and particularly true with front wheel drive cars.

However you may want to take notice of rk's point in the post above regarding brake balance controller settings, I agree that for a DS2 user they seem to be set very high, even using my DFP I would not go that high, the tyres just lock to easily.

I also think that for a generally setting is still too biased towards the front. BTW, welcome to GTP and should you want some more info on what we have talked about on brakes, please head over to the GT4 & Brakes thread, its a lot to read, but its all good stuff.

 

[Scaff]

congratulations to Scaff

Thanks rk.