Braking on time trial

[Gulf]

Hello Everyone, i hope you can help me on this.
I was comparing my driving to one of the fastest guys online and i discovered that my breaking sucks.
I think that i can follow the race line quite well, and i can hit the apex at the right place 95% of the time. Note aside, i use the SIXAXIS DUALSHOCK 3.
This is the thing. when comparing my breaking with the "fastest ghost replay", i discovered that he/she had a considerable shorter breaking distance than I (of course, breaking at the same place and at the same time).
I would assume that the steering wheel has better breaking performance, but the brake pedal is just a sustitution of the square button on the pad, so that should not be the case.
This leave me just one explanation; the problem is my breaking technic.
But how?, and why? After watching some videos of people driving with the G25, I've noticed that they press the gas when they downshift. Will that improve my breaking performance?
What is the trick?
Hopefully someone can help me.

Cheers,

 

[cpp214]

I don't know if this will help you or not, but as a former (as of about 3 weeks ago) sixaxis user, I think I may have some answers for you.

First, having experienced both the pad and the wheel now, I can tell you that braking is indeed easier with a wheel. Why? Just look at the amount of travel in a brake pedal (several inches) compared with that of a controller (several millimeters at most). This alone makes for easier, and more precise braking modulation. Perhaps it would be possible, but the amount of manual dexterity required for a pad user to simulate/equal the amount of braking precision available to a G25 brake pedal (with several inches to play with) compared to a controller button, with only a few millimeters to play with, would seem superhuman to me. Now, at it's limits, if you mash down either the square brake button (or one of the shoulder buttons, whichever you use for braking) as hard as you can, I'm sure it would very closely simulate the amount of maximum pressure you could apply with the brake pedal on a wheel. It's all that space in between the pedal itself and the "floorboard" that makes it so much easier to brake with a wheel, IMO. I found that in car/track combos where heavy braking was required, the sixaxis was not too much inferior to the wheel. But in other instances in which modulated/gradual/less than maximum braking is required, the wheel is far superior. I hope that all makes sense.

As for pressing the gas when they downshift, I haven't seen that, but I can tell you that when downshifting, whether with a controller or a wheel, most often you will want to try and downshift gradually instead of downshifting as quickly as possible in order to help achieve optimum braking and turn-in performance. As for why this is, I don't have a scientific answer for it, but I believe it has a lot to do with keeping the car in its optimum RPM range for each gear. As a test, take a fast car like the Ford GT-LM to Fuji, get it up to maximum speed on the straight, and then try to brake as late as possible while also downshifting as quickly as possible. What you will find is that the car has less traction under braking when you downshift too quickly because the gear you end up in will most likely be turning too many RPM's to have optimum braking/turn-in traction. I guess this would fall under the category of using "engine braking" to slow the car down. I have a pretty good idea of that concept, but it would take too long to explain properly, and I don't know if I could anyway. Just search the term "engine braking" in the forums and your bound to find something. Google also may be your friend in this case as well.

Again, I hope this was helpful. You are doing the right thing by the way--watching replays of the fast drivers. Just keep doing that and try to emulate them as much as possible, and you will no doubt keep steadily improving.

Good Luck 👍

 

[Gulf]

Thanks cpp for the answer,
As for which button i use, i use the right thumb "thing" to accelerate and brake. That's a lot better for when you have to apply a little bit of throttle or a little bit of brake. and when im breaking, i dont go berserk downshifitng, i try to do it gradually because i know that the breaking performance improve if you downshift properly while breaking.
The problem i have is, when i brake at the same place at the same time as the ghost, the ghost brakes a lot better than i (of course we use the same tire and braking seting, it is time trial).
I assume i am doing something wrong, or simply i just forgot to do something. i just want to know that it is.
That breaking issue is costing me at least 2 seconds per lap, maybe more.

 

[Ardius]

By "thing" I assume you mean the analogue sticks? They are good but I'd probably say you're better off with the triggers (L2/R2). Though even then you are still losing out to wheel users.
You can still make up the difference with lots of practice but as has been said, its easier and more worthwhile with a wheel.

I think he already answered why your braking distances are longer, you don't have the same ability to modulate your brakes, sometimes slamming them on isn't the fastest way and as I just said, there is a difference between braking with a pedal and with a pad.

Do you have ABS on? If you have it off you may be locking the brakes and losing that way.

 

[Gulf]

Do you have ABS on? If you have it off you may be locking the brakes and losing that way.

I don't think i have them on. I dont even know if you can set that on time trial. Usually i use no driving and/or braking aids. They jeopardize the performance of the car.
Maybe i can give ABS a try. Will that improve my lap time in any way? or it will just make the car more controlable while braking?

 

[Ardius]

Ah yeah, I forgot no Quick Setup, though I'm sure you can set in the menu before driving? I forget.

But ABS is a controversial debate, lol. Its undecided whether its truly the fastest way, but the general consensus is that with most drivers its always faster, just because you have to be exceptionally good at braking to achieve anything like the same performance, not to mention with a controller.

It certainly doesn't hurt the performance of the car at all, thats TCS and ASM that do that. ABS can only ever be a benefit.

 

[UnknownSam]

Maybe the truth is in "engine braking" ?
But some drivers uses it too much - the real engine will never be ok after such brakings.

 

[EERS4YEARS]

First off- hitting the gas while braking is the heel-toe technique. This does nothing in GT5P.
Sencond- Downshifting fast doesnt hurt, yet, not until we get engine/drive train damage. And the reason slamming the brakes is not as good as gradually braking is the rear of the car will get too light, thus less braking force with rear tires.
Lastly- The top guys will simply go around the turns faster, thats why they brake later. Sometimes, never completly letting off the throttle will help with corner speed or stability of the car (braking with the throttle still applied)

Hope that helps explain some secrets to going fast. Its alot easier said than done!

 

[niky]

I wouldn't feel too bad about it... you can only get so far with the Sixaxxis compared to the wheel... My wheel is on the fritz, and I'm having a hard time breaking into the top tens of the time trials without it (highest I can get, in most cases, is up to 40th or so...)

 

[UnknownSam]

...
Sencond- Downshifting fast doesnt hurt, yet, not until we get engine/drive train damage
...

It's like saying I can punt because the game let me to do this.

 

[blaktek]

Engine braking works like a charm. If you get it right, it improves braking stability, distance, and you can even augment deceleration in the last tier of the braking zone, for a quick pass.

When approaching Casio (Suzuka), I'm in 5th, hitting 8000 Rpm (NSX). I brake but don't gear down before I hit 4/5000 RPM. Then I gear down to 2nd regularly (but quite fast), and the RPM go back up to 8000. When I'm ready to reaccelerate, RPM is at 4500/5000 to apply torque where needed.

When downshifting, the RPM will go up by 1500 before going down again. To maximize engine braking you should downshift again after RPM start to dwindle, but before it goes to the point it was before the first downshift.

It goes like this, with an NSX (obviously different for each car and tune) :

5th @ 8000 RPM - Start braking - 5000 - 4th -> 6500 - 6000 - 3rd -> 7500 - 6500 - 2nd -> 8000 - 4500 - turn-in and acceleration to next turn. I don't use threshold braking here because of the straight line just before the chicane.

When I get it wrong, like downshifting too fast, my speed is too high to negociate the turn properly, and the RPM is off thus impairing the next turn.

Hope it helps, though I'm not exactly a reference.

 

[Stotty]

Whilst maxium braking performance is the same for pad and pedals, pedals have a massive advantage as they allow you to 'trail brake' - bleeding off braking as you turn in to avoid creating understeer... so you can still be braking at say 20% and make the apex. With the pad it is much harder to get this precise level of partial braking and if you can't manage it, you would need to be braking earlier so you have time to come off the brakes before turning in.

 

[Gulf]

I tried some things you told me here and is super hard with the controller. I definately need a wheel, but the crisis hit my pocket so that wont happen anytime soon.
I'll let you know about my progress.
If someone else have any other idea, please tell me. It's getting very frustrating

Thanks

 

[clacksman]

If someone else have any other idea, please tell me. It's getting very frustrating

Thanks

Have you tried using L2 for brake and R2 for throttle yet? I find this much better than R3 stick.

 

[Gulf]

Have you tried using L2 for brake and R2 for throttle yet? I find this much better than R3 stick.

Im on it, im making the change but it not precise. Yesterday i tried to use R2 and L2 for acceleration and braking. Although it has the same flaw as R3. For example if you want to apply 85% of pressure on the button for 85% for throttle, you will end up with 85% of button pressure but 100% of throttle. Is the same thing with R3. I just need to get use to that. My main complain about the pad is that is not precise enough or it doesnt fit my driving style. In GT4 i had not trouble, almost all license in gold, all the challenges passed but one (MB at Nurburgring).
Maybe i just need to get use to it.
Still my braking is not good though. Impossible to match the breaking performance from the best runners on that circuit.

 

[clacksman]

For example if you want to apply 85% of pressure on the button for 85% for throttle, you will end up with 85% of button pressure but 100% of throttle. Is the same thing with R3. I just need to get use to that.

If you park yourself somewhere, and look at the red indicator for braking application, you can figure out the 'dead zone' of whichever button you're using. The middle part of the travel of the R2/L2 buttons is quite precise, but you do have to accommodate the dead zone.

Using R2/L2 allows braking and throttle simultaneously.

My fastest time trial rankings are done with never fully pressing the brakes.