Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

[Robin]

So that wasn't the EU being "a organisation that cannot be reasoned with"

On Brexit, not in all of history!

If your stance is 'we want everything we had as a member, but without being a member or contributing in any way' is that really a surprise.

They don't have to give us a thing, why do they have to add the mouthing off on top? In any case it's not my stance, if they don't want to do a deal then so be it.

This has nothing to do with the EU being bitter and difficult, I would actually argue its the other way around.

I would say they are being difficult when Tusk and Co have repeatedly shown no interest in budging an inch in the face of the UK government actually showing signs of fixing its divisions and working slowly towards solutions, the most recent parliament vote an example of this.

Credit should have been given and an encouraging tone should have been heard but instead we got more No's, more rhetoric, and now apparently a first class ticket to hell. They want to punish the UK for what it's done, this isn't about protecting the interest of its members anymore (especially as its looking like no deal), its just handbags now.

 

[Touring Mars]

@Touring Mars it's all debatable of course, but I think your last sentence should be reversed, like this:

You could well be right - the future of the UK's "Precious Union" is in doubt, though I reckon that the EU's backstop is the single biggest danger to the Union right now. However, I would argue that the UK is unlikely to split up after a no deal Brexit, ironically for the sole reason that the peoples of Britain do not want hard borders.

The Scottish independence referendum was, in many ways, a foretaste of the Brexit debate - fortunately, it was rejected on the same basis as Brexit ought to have been - there was nowhere like a coherent plan for how an independent Scotland would work, and the prospect of border controls (while popular with some of the more rabid Scottish and English nationalists) was and still is deeply unpopular. Ironically, the fact that Brexit has highlighted so many parallels with 'Scexit' has seemingly given the SNP pause for thought. But either way, the future of the Union will be decided by future referenda i.e. with the consent of the peoples of the individual countries of the UK.

The EU project is fundamentally different insofar as it has, until now, brought down barriers and was, in principle, a very, very good idea. The sad truth is, however, that it is now in serious danger for a multitude of reasons, some of which seem practically insurmountable - and unfortunately, the proposed solutions require executive action, as opposed to (and even contrary to) the consent of the people... and it has already occured in Greece. This is a fundamental problem with an imbalanced economic union - what is too much for the Greeks is not enough for the Germans, and vice versa. The EU's solution? Don't ask either of them what they want.

 

[Dotini]

The EU project...is now in serious danger for a multitude of reasons, some of which seem practically insurmountable - and unfortunately, the proposed solutions require executive action, as opposed to (and even contrary to) the consent of the people... and it has already occured in Greece. This is a fundamental problem with an imbalanced economic union - what is too much for the Greeks is not enough for the Germans, and vice versa. The EU's solution? Don't ask either of them what they want.

Exactly. The problem is too much democracy. Easy to fix in Brussels, but an anchor around a drowning man's neck in the UK.

 

[Touring Mars]

Jeremy Corbyn has submitted a letter to the Prime Minister stating the conditions for Labour's support for a Brexit deal...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-out-labours-terms-for-backing-may-on-brexit

Tl;dr version: The EU are going to need a bigger cake tin, and the UK need a bigger plate....

 

[UKMikey]

On Brexit, not in all of history!

That wasn't really obvious from your original comment.

They don't have to give us a thing, why do they have to add the mouthing off on top? In any case it's not my stance, if they don't want to do a deal then so be it.

I don't think @Scaff was associating the stance with you personally, just giving an example. Perhaps Tusk's intemperate language represents a degree of frustration with the stalled and haphazard negotiating process? It's difficult to tell from the outside.

Credit should have been given and an encouraging tone should have been heard but instead we got more No's, more rhetoric, and now apparently a first class ticket to hell. They want to punish the UK for what it's done, this isn't about protecting the interest of its members anymore (especially as its looking like no deal), its just handbags now.

On the bright side at least now we have yet another scapegoat to blame when things inevitably go south. It's an ill wind that blows no good, as they say.

On another note if anyone is interested in more gallows humour here is a very not-suitable-for-work tweet regarding the People's vote.

 

[baldgye]

Tusk's comments are not only ill-judged but are also seriously irresponsible.

 

[Scaff]

On Brexit, not in all of history!

Which was not what you said, and I would still disagree. The EU came to the table to do exactly that, it was the UK that showed up with no detail and a bag full of unicorns.

They don't have to give us a thing, why do they have to add the mouthing off on top? In any case it's not my stance, if they don't want to do a deal then so be it.

Already answered and ignored, as such I really don't want to repeat myself only to be ignored again.

So I will leave it to another to add a different take

I would say they are being difficult when Tusk and Co have repeatedly shown no interest in budging an inch in the face of the UK government actually showing signs of fixing its divisions and working slowly towards solutions, the most recent parliament vote an example of this.

All the UK has done is go back and ask for things that the EU has been clear would not be open for renegotiation. To then be surprised when the answer remains a no in those areas is absurd.

Credit should have been given and an encouraging tone should have been heard but instead we got more No's, more rhetoric, and now apparently a first class ticket to hell. They want to punish the UK for what it's done, this isn't about protecting the interest of its members anymore (especially as its looking like no deal), its just handbags now.

Its absolutely about protecting the interests of its members, both with the deal offered (and the fact a deal exists highlight the lie of the EU not being able to be negotiated with) and in the case of a No-Deal.

'Give us everything we demand or we shot ourselves in the face' is the UK's current take on a sound negotiating strategy (both internally and with the EU), if the UK then does that yes some of that will result on the EU ending up messy, but the UK will still be the one that has been by far the most badly damaged. Gunboat diplomacy only works if you point the gun at the other party, not at yourself, and if that's what you are defending then I see little to no common ground between us on this at all.

You could well be right - the future of the UK's "Precious Union" is in doubt, though I reckon that the EU's backstop is the single biggest danger to the Union right now. However, I would argue that the UK is unlikely to split up after a no deal Brexit, ironically for the sole reason that the peoples of Britain do not want hard borders.

Leading Breixteers disagree....

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-ireland-customs-union-leave-eu-a8414196.html

..."Recent polling from Conservative peer Michael Ashcroft suggests that two-thirds of pro-Brexit voters would rather leave the customs union than avoid a hard border in Northern Ireland, and that six out of ten people surveyed “would not mind either way” if Northern Ireland voted to leave the UK."

Quite frankly if would seem that not only do Brexit voters not have an issue with a hard border, but they also seem to not give a **** about a breakdown of the union either.

 

[_ApexPredator]

At this point I'm just hoping it's all a really elaborate April Fool's...

 

[Touring Mars]

Leading Breixteers disagree....

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-ireland-customs-union-leave-eu-a8414196.html

..."Recent polling from Conservative peer Michael Ashcroft suggests that two-thirds of pro-Brexit voters would rather leave the customs union than avoid a hard border in Northern Ireland, and that six out of ten people surveyed “would not mind either way” if Northern Ireland voted to leave the UK."

Quite frankly if would seem that not only do Brexit voters not have an issue with a hard border, but they also seem to not give a **** about a breakdown of the union either.

A fair point, and a rather depressing (albeit predictable) one... but, it doesn't actually refute my point - though perhaps I should have been clearer... when I said that the peoples of the UK are opposed to hard borders, I really meant within the UK - I don't believe that there is a majority of UK people who want a hard border in Ireland either, but I was specifically talking about the prospect of the UK being split with customs borders between home nations.

Also, while the statistic you cite (6/10 Leave voters don't care if NI is part of the UK) is a sad reflection on our country, that still doesn't represent anything like a majority. But, when all is said and done, the future of Northern Ireland needs to be decided by the people of Northern Ireland - and not by Westminster, Dublin or Brussels.

 

[UKMikey]

Also, while the statistic you cite (6/10 Leave voters don't care if NI is part of the UK) is a sad reflection on our country, that still doesn't represent anything like a majority.

I don't understand. Do you mean that it doesn't represent an overall majority of all voters rather than represent a majority of Leave voters?

 

[Robin]

Doesn't matter who you target for an insult, you insult the leader you insult the flock. News outlets 'got' that, even Leo Varadkar got it. So it's not an unreasonable link to see he's mocking everyone who supported leave. Why is it such a big story if it's not outrageously insulting?

Quite frankly if would seem that not only do Brexit voters not have an issue with a hard border, but they also seem to not give a **** about a breakdown of the union either.

And what about the Northern Ireland voters?, they voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU and I bet if they were polled they would be willing to break away from the union and either become independent or consider a whole Ireland referendum... yet that doesn't matter because the Brexiteers are the nasty evils ones right? Yet again it's the vilification of Brexiteers which frankly is getting old. No one wants are hard border in NI, it's not the governments stance nor any reasonable leavers stance either.

Also, while the statistic you cite (6/10 Leave voters don't care if NI is part of the UK) is a sad reflection on our country, that still doesn't represent anything like a majority. But, when all is said and done, the future of Northern Ireland needs to be decided by the people of Northern Ireland - and not by Westminster, Dublin or Brussels.

Exactly, NI will decide on it's own future, if they leave the union it doesn't matter two hoots how the mainland 'feels' whatever polls supposedly indicate (and we know know how accurate they are!).

 

[UKMikey]

Doesn't matter who you target for an insult, you insult the leader you insult the flock. News outlets 'got' that, even Leo Varadkar got it. So it's not an unreasonable link to see he's mocking everyone who supported leave. Why is it such a big story if it's not outrageously insulting?

So you're saying it's the leaders who had no plan, or everyone who supported Leave?
In seriousness it seems like a particularly tribal reaction.

As for the media misrepresenting the truth in order to push a particular viewpoint that benefits the government, you can't say that that's never happened before.

 

[Robin]

So you're saying it's the leaders who had no plan?

I don't agree that they had no plan, they had no idea what dealing with the EU on this issue would be like, but they are the ones who were quite visible during the campaign so they are regarded as the 'leaders'.

By the way, you can support an ideology without necessarily agreeing with the way the leaders carry it out.

 

[Touring Mars]

I don't understand. Do you mean that it doesn't represent an overall majority of all voters rather than represent a majority of Leave voters?

I meant that it doesn't represent a majority of people in the UK as a whole.

 

[UKMikey]

I don't agree that they had no plan, they had no idea what dealing with the EU on this issue would be like, but they are the ones who were quite visible during the campaign so they are regarded as the 'leaders'.

By the way, you can support an ideology without necessarily agreeing with the way the leaders carry it out.

If they had a plan then the remarks weren't directed at them.

I also wasn't aware that one's ideology should be regarded as a more important consideration than considering the future of the UK's economy.

 

[Robin]

If they had a plan then the remarks weren't directed at them.

I don't agree that that didn't have a plan, Tusk might.

I also wasn't aware that one's ideology should be regarded as a more important consideration than considering the future of the UK's economy.

If you believe it will be bad.

 

[UKMikey]

I don't agree that that didn't have a plan, Tusk might.



If you believe it will be bad.

on both counts. Does anyone still believe HM Govt had a workable plan or that the economy will improve after Brexit? They have a plan in place to evacuate the Queen though!

 

[Scaff]

Doesn't matter who you target for an insult, you insult the leader you insult the flock. News outlets 'got' that, even Leo Varadkar got it. So it's not an unreasonable link to see he's mocking everyone who supported leave. Why is it such a big story if it's not outrageously insulting?

I've already addressed this and been ignored, so here we go again.

Where was this outrage from Leave and the UK Press when the same comments (and far worse) were targeted with a much greater frequency against the EU?

Faux-outrage doesn't really cut it from people unwilling to look in a mirror.

And what about the Northern Ireland voters?, they voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU and I bet if they were polled they would be willing to break away from the union and either become independent or consider a whole Ireland referendum... yet that doesn't matter because the Brexiteers are the nasty evils ones right? Yet again it's the vilification of Brexiteers which frankly is getting old. No one wants are hard border in NI, it's not the governments stance nor any reasonable leavers stance either.

The data provided contradicts you on that, and the only way for you stance to hold true (given that the majority of Leave voters would not object to a hard border or the breakdown of the union) is to conclude that the majority of leave voters are not reasonable!

Exactly, NI will decide on it's own future, if they leave the union it doesn't matter two hoots how the mainland 'feels' whatever polls supposedly indicate (and we know know how accurate they are!).

Does your argument i that also include the rather sizable opinion poll done in 2016?

It also ignores the rather important fact that the bloke who commissioned it, he supports Brexit, a lot!

I don't agree that they had no plan,

If a plan is unworkable and/or utterly unachievable then its not a plan, its a fantasy.

they had no idea what dealing with the EU on this issue would be like,

Then they were idiots.

Exactly what the EU's stance would be, what the red lines for the EU was, what the impact would be was laid out by a vast number of people from before the referendum even took place, those who attempt to use that excuse are the willful idiots who attempted to dismiss it as 'project fear'.

I'm in weekly contingency meetings at work as we watch the UK manufacturing side of my industry implode in slow motion in exactly the way the industry, the EU and many other predicted.

 

[Famine]

Faux-outrage

Few people know that's what Nigel Farage's name was before he shortened it...

 

[MatskiMonk]

And what about the Northern Ireland voters?, they voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU and I bet if they were polled they would be willing to break away from the union and either become independent or consider a whole Ireland referendum... yet that doesn't matter because the Brexiteers are the nasty evils ones right? Yet again it's the vilification of Brexiteers which frankly is getting old. No one wants are hard border in NI, it's not the governments stance nor any reasonable leavers stance either.

As a remain voter now having to accept Brexit, I'd almost be demanding an independence vote for Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales (and Cornwall), if there was actually any mechanism to do so.

 

[Hun200kmh]

You're forgetting Gibraltar

(now a side joke to lighten up the mood, hope any and all spaniards lurking here don't take offense).

As a portuguese, if you want to rile up one of our cousins from accross the border you can use one of two questions:

#1 - "Why did your half of South America explode into a million micro and medium countries?"

#2 - "How many countries have territory in the Iberian Peninsula?"

 

[TenEightyOne]

You're forgetting Gibraltar

I believe the withdrawal documents call it "a colony of the United Kingdom", something which has rather riled Fartage and others.

Somebody fact-checked him with this (expired and in the public domain):

 

[Scaff]

Leave campaigner complaining that EU laws will no longer keep data roaming charges low once we leave the EU.

The replys are as brutal as can be expected.

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/02/08/leave-campaigners-self/

Not to mention its an EU law that UKIP (and she was a member of UKIP) voted against.

 

[Dennisch]

Leave campaigner

This can now be accompanied by this permanently.

 

[Scaff]

This can now be accompanied by this permanently.

I'd like to say that its an isolated case, but its not......

 

[Touring Mars]

Leave campaigner complaining that EU laws will no longer keep data roaming charges low once we leave the EU.

The replys are as brutal as can be expected.

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/02/08/leave-campaigners-self/

Not to mention its an EU law that UKIP (and she was a member of UKIP) voted against.

To be fair, the question in the tweet is why Three can commit to no roaming charges after Brexit but Vodafone cannot...

 

[Scaff]

To be fair, the question in the tweet is why Three can commit to no roaming charges after Brexit but Vodafone cannot...

That's a rather simple answer, its because of the exact freedom for providers to charge what the hell they like across the EU for UK customers that her party voted for and she campaigned for.

The slight technicality of what the whine is about, doesn't change the fact that its come about because of exactly what she campaigned for.

 

[Touring Mars]

That's a rather simple answer, its because of the exact freedom for providers to charge what the hell they like across the EU for UK customers that her party voted for and she campaigned for.

The slight technicality of what the whine is about, doesn't change the fact that its come about because of exactly what she campaigned for.

Yes, but the point is that Vodafone could decide to not to reinstate roaming charges after Brexit if they wanted to, as other companies already have committed to. Obviously, it should be up to the provider to decide (so she was not wrong to campaign for that, if that's what she has done previously) but it is also hard to understand why some companies might reintroduce roaming charges after Brexit when there doesn't appear to be much reason to do so. All I would read into that tweet is that companies who decide to reinstate roaming charges after Brexit are going to lose some business.

 

[Scaff]

Yes, but the point is that Vodafone could decide to not to reinstate roaming charges after Brexit if they wanted to, as other companies already have committed to. Obviously, it should be up to the provider to decide (so she was not wrong to campaign for that, if that's what she has done previously) but it is also hard to understand why some companies might reintroduce roaming charges after Brexit when there doesn't appear to be much reason to do so. All I would read into that tweet is that companies who decide to reinstate roaming charges after Brexit are going to lose some business.

They may do, and if it was a man/women in the street asking this question I would have no issue with it being a valid question to ask.

However that's not who this is, its someone who should know the answer to the question and fully support the companies option to do so, and if she doesn't like then vote with her feet.

However to act as if its a surprise is utterly asinine, its what she wanted and campaigned for, she should be celebrating it not complaining about it.

 

[Hun200kmh]

LOL that was funny!

I guess she's suffering from Trumpitis, a known disease among politicians, especially those with low IQ. Main symptom: tweeting without thinking.