Britain - The Official Thread

[Ross]

This thread is for discussion on any topic relating to Britain and it's foreign policies. Use this to criticize or support British leadership, British policy and British action.

Rule #1 - You WILL NOT violate the AUP. No swearing, no personal attacks, no broad sweeping generalizations about Americans, Arabs, Muslims, Christians or any group. It will not be tolerated and offenders may be warned by a mod. Repeat offenders may be subject to administrative discipline up to and including banning. (This is of course at the discretion of the Mods or Admins and I have no say in it. Same goes for Rule #2

Rule #2 - You WILL NOT post anything that even remotely suggests that people -especially civilians, regardless of nationality, race or religion should be injured or killed. Your post may be modified by a mod or admin to remove the offending remark and you may be warned, plain and simple.

If things get out of hand in this thread, it will be locked for at least 1 day, maybe more depending on the offence and the offending posts reported and left to be dealt with by a Mod.

Highly recommended: Make whatever point you wish, but be prepared to support your argument with facts. Opinion is not fact therefore needs to be backed up with facts.

Highly recommended: Be polite. Political discussion is often highly charged and personal attacks are always a danger. It is not against the AUP to be rude to someone or even critisize them, but if you cross that line you should be ready for the consequences which could be a warning or worse.

Discuss!!

Ross

 

[ExigeEvan]

Does anyone here read the Telegraph newspaper? Today there was a "Defence Industry Careers" supplement which I thought was a bit of a kick in the face. Since the SDR the defence industry has been as tight as a gnat's ****, I doubt they've had a poor applicants-positions ratio.

 

[BobK]

Rule #2 - You WILL NOT post anything that even remotely suggests that people -especially civilians, regardless of nationality, race or religion should be injured or killed. Your post will be modified by a mod or admin to remove the offending remark and you will be warned, plain and simple.

If things get out of hand in this thread, it will be locked for at least 1 day, maybe more depending on the offence and the offending posts reported and left to be dealt with by a Mod.

Have you arranged in advance for the mods to handle this kind of stuff?

Nice of you to pre-emptively ban any discussion of, say, the death penalty there. And then say that the mods will enforce it for you?

How about leaving decisions as to what does and does not need moderation to the mods?

 

[Ross]

You need rules and as with any thread action will take place if the Mods feel if it is necessary and what the action should be. If there is anything against the AUP I will close the thread and report the post then wait until the issue has been resolved. But the Golden rule is if in doubt, don't post. It doesn't say anything about the death penalty, it just says that you can't post anything suggesting people should be killed.

/off topic

 

[daan]

I'm sure what Bob was meaning is that every thread here is governed by the AUP so while putting in something like that may seem like a good idea, it is completely superfluous.

Your post will be modified by a mod or admin to remove the offending remark and you will be warned, plain and simple.

Also, you cannot decide what will happen if something is posted that is against the AUP. Leave that kind of thing to us.

EDIT: I realise you've just copied this directly for the America thread, but that was created by a mod so he was within his rights to say that.

 

[Alex.]

I'm the kind of guy who knows that there are errors in our policies but doesn't know enough about politics to be able to sufficiently argue them.

 

[BobK]

It doesn't say anything about the death penalty, it just says that you can't post anything suggesting people should be killed.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when the death penalty is applied somebody gets killed, right?

 

[MSTER232]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the teacher strike today yet.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when the death penalty is applied somebody gets killed, right?

Yes, the death penalty will result in the death of a human being.

 

[Liquid]

Well, the NHS reforms would be a good place to start. What are people's thoughts on the matter?

I can't say I have personally read the new Government recommendations, but my understanding is that the Government is going to be empowering the GPs with more freedom of choice, opening up certain sub-industries to the private sector. Reorganising the NHS is a must, but it sort of goes against the Tories' "No top/down reorganisation" electoral promise. Not that electoral promises are worth much.

It seems though, that many groups within the health industry are against the reforms, as demonstrated by the pathetic listening period that went on a few months back. Even now, every week in PMQ Milliband lists the groups, including many Royal Colleges, that are against the reforms. Cameron retorts that there are several groups in favour. I'm not sure who to believe without seeing the figures.

The NHS does need to change. But Milliband doesn't have a plan. He'd do himself a bit of a favour if he said that while he agrees that the NHS needs changing, he doesn't agree with these particular reforms proposed by the Government. In PMQ, Cameron is a bona fide question dodger. He refuses to answer questions directly and then asks why Milliband keeps asking the same question week after week. And Milliband is such a poor speaker.

But, blaming the last Government everytime for everything is such a cop out. The last Labour Government was a complete degenerative farce and disaster, especially in the later years. That much is true. I am in no way defending their records, fame or infamy. But I really don't like it when Cameron is presented with something which stifles and unnerves him, and his stock answer is "Last Government this, last Government that". Goddamn the last Government was terrible overall but guess what 'Dave'? The buck stops somewhere and right now that's with you. You're the one in power, and even though it wasn't directly your fault, it's now your responsibility whether you like it or not. If unemployment rises, you have to sort it. If inflation rises, you have to deal with it now. Labour are out of power for several very good reasons and now it's time for you and your cronies to deliver.

Big society. Great idea in principle, flawed in practice. I don't think our culture isn't collective enough for it to work sufficiently well enough. And I don't even know what the Government plans are.

Labour need to do themselves a massive favour and stop shooting themselves in the foot. Stop defending your record. You did much more bad than good. You can't defend the undefendable. If you want to win public opinion back, come out and admit that you totally urinated away 11 years of power and it was inexcuseable. And some truths about Iraq would be nice.

News Corp. Phone hacking. Milly Dowler. Disgusting. They're almost certainly not the only ones to do it, but they have the infamy of being found out. I mean, Sara Payne was gifted a phone by Rebekah Brooks which was subsequently voicemail hacked. Considering the amount of publicity NOTW gave to the Payne case, I find that totally shocking. However, regarding news generally I'm drawn to the Mark Twain quote about not wanting to see how things are made; "Those that respect the law and love sausage should watch neither being made". I think news can also be put into this category.

---

In any case, Britain can't reinstate the death penalty unless it leaves the Council of Europe. We are completely bound by European Law and there are no offences which carry an execution these days. And petioning won't achieve squat until said removal from the Council of Europe happens.

 

[Juiposa]

[Deleted]

 

[Ross]

I'm sure what Bob was meaning is that every thread here is governed by the AUP so while putting in something like that may seem like a good idea, it is completely superfluous.



Also, you cannot decide what will happen if something is posted that is against the AUP. Leave that kind of thing to us.

EDIT: I realise you've just copied this directly for the America thread, but that was created by a mod so he was within his rights to say that.

Ah OK, sorry about that, I did try and change it to suit but I guess mywording could have been a bit better.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when the death penalty is applied somebody gets killed, right?

Yes, the death penalty will result in the death of a human being.

Fair enough, I always thought of it as wishing death as in murder.

 

[PeterJB]

I'm the kind of guy who knows that there are errors in our policies but doesn't know enough about politics to be able to sufficiently argue them.

I'm the same, but I can't help arguing anyway.

 

[Omnis]

Am I een der right pwace?

 

[Lizard]

Am I een der right pwace?

Considering the wars we had with the French started over an argument over unifying Britain and France then yes.

 

[Liquid]

Am I een der right pwace?

Go back where you came from, Indian.

 

[MSTER232]

Go back where you came from, Indian.

Nice picture!

 

[Moglet]

I have always pondered moving to the UK when I'm older and hav the money. A few reasons why I'd want to move, such as better social services

I'm interested in knowing what is better about them compared to your current residence!

better cars

Which nobody can afford to buy or run due to excessive fuel, insurance and road tax costs. Not to mention the state of our roads.

and the ability to drive to Moscow is you so felt like.

You could, but it would take at least 2 days and that's pushing it!

Couple reasons why I wouldn't would be you seem to drown in taxes compared to us

We get lots of tax. My daily life means I pay tax on the following:
a) Car tax - £130 a year
b) Fuel tax - £0.58 per litre of fuel, or £2.19 per US gallon)
c) Value Added Tax (VAT) - 20% of the cost of the product you're buying, this is also added onto fuel on top of the fuel tax.
d) Income tax - I earn £15,000 a year and I get taxed £1,379 and pay £933 in National Insurance costs.

However, we also have Inheritance Tax - If someone dies and you get left £325,000 or more in cash or estate, you have to give the government 40% of it.

and gas prices.... We pay $1.30/L here, and we see that as rediculous, but you guys pay the equivalent of around $2.20/L!

It's due to rise again in the summer too.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Couple reasons why I wouldn't would be you seem to drown in taxes compared to us and gas prices....

We get lots of tax.

I know we seem to pay a lot in taxes in this country, the problem is government expenditure... we have numerous taxes, but still the government is borrowing money to pay it's bills

I'll draw your attention to the Welfare payment on the left... our governments biggest expense, and far bigger than it's biggest source of income - income tax!

I'd rather pay more in income tax, and have a reduction in Fuel duty to be honest... tax is taken from my wages before it hits my bank account, I never see it, it pretty much doesn't exist as far as I can see... but every time I go to the petrol pump it 🤬 me off.

 

[nobuffalo]

So how do these countries plan to stay afloat if they keep spending more than they have, make or whatever?

 

[XoravaX]

In my opinion you don't have to complain about your roads. At least 60% of your road network isn't unsurfaced and the roads don't get worn by ice, snow and spiked tyres for half of the year.

And to what I saw there, your drivers are more polite towards pedestrians and even let them cross.

c) Value Added Tax (VAT) - 20% of the cost of the product you're buying, this is also added onto fuel on top of the fuel tax.
d) Income tax - I earn £15,000 a year and I get taxed £1,379 and pay £933 in National Insurance costs.

That's pretty low TBH - at least when compared to Sweden, Finland, Norway and Denmark, of which Norway and Sweden are the worst.

We have 24% VAT (except 14% for food) in Finland.
Income tax (total of the income-dependant mandatory taxes like state income tax, municipal tax for healthcare and education, social security tax etc.) is progressive from around 25% to (rough) maximum of 65% for yearly income over €70 300/£55 000, although those earning under €16 000/year are mostly relieved from taxes.
Petrol costs €1.70/litre (~£1.50).

I'd happily welcome the British taxing system to Finland, even though it would drastically cut social security and such things as long as our completely free education system would remain unchanged. See for yourself how much could be cut: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_security_in_Finland.

 

[Liquid]

So how do these countries plan to stay afloat if they keep spending more than they have, make or whatever?

We will struggle. And have been struggling since 2007.

There will always be national debt. So long as there is Govermental spending, there will be national debt. It can be curtailed to an acceptable level where the debt is lower than income. But the situation right now has that balance completely the wrong way round where the debt is infinitely higher than the income. That's the danger.

 

[Dennisch]

[Stereotypeism]
Typical Brit :

[/Stereotypeism]



How is the Euro debate going across the little pond? Regret of staying out, or the opposite?

 

[Liquid]

How is the Euro debate going across the little pond? Regret of staying out, or the opposite?

We are so glad we still use £s. But it puts us in the awkward position of being one of the EU heavyweights, but because we're not part of the euro, Merkozy don't want us interfering with them 'fixing' the recovery. What they are doing is preventing the next crisis before solving the current one. Somehow I don't see that as getting your priorities straight.

That said, we're being pretty fussy about it. Sod national pride. We need to stop the eurozone from imploding. If the eurozone implodes, we will not survive. Just make sure that money will still have a use at the end of the decade, and we will fix terms of EU membership later.

 

[Keef]

We need to stop the eurozone from imploding.

The only way to do that is to let it implode now instead of later. It will implode eventually. The longer they delay it the bigger the mess will be.

 

[Liquid]

The only way to do that is to let it implode now instead of later. It will implode eventually. The longer they delay it the bigger the mess will be.

The zone probably will, but I don't think every member state will. Or, I'm hopeful that that won't happen.

Damage limitation would be nice, that's all. A case of too little, too late yes, but still...

 

[ExigeEvan]

The only way to do that is to let it implode now instead of later. It will implode eventually. The longer they delay it the bigger the mess will be.

No, it can implode or it can dissolve. Drastically different things.

If the Eurozone can be brought back to stability then countries that clearly shouldn't be in it can leave on their own terms without their economy collapsing and the euro economy being blown to bits.

Big society. Great idea in principle, flawed in practice. I don't think our culture isn't collective enough for it to work sufficiently well enough. And I don't even know what the Government plans are.

I'm currently working part-time, like a lot of graduates in south Wales. However, most them spend their spare time sat around doing nothing but complaining.

This Monday and Tuesday morning, after several weeks dealing with CRB forms and busy head teachers, I volunteered in my local primary school. It's amazing how helpful you feel when you're in a class of 25 kids with only one teacher.

Now if just some of these graduates helped out that'd make a big difference in schools. And I'm doing my best to convince them.

I can't say I have personally read the new Government recommendations, but my understanding is that the Government is going to be empowering the GPs with more freedom of choice, opening up certain sub-industries to the private sector. Reorganising the NHS is a must, but it sort of goes against the Tories' "No top/down reorganisation" electoral promise. Not that electoral promises are worth much.

I can't get my head around all the facts involved in it but I haven't heard a single good thing from the people it's empowering. And with several good friends studying medicine, that really worries me.

 

[Liquid]

I'm currently working part-time, like a lot of graduates in south Wales. However, most them spend their spare time sat around doing nothing but complaining.

This Monday and Tuesday morning, after several weeks dealing with CRB forms and busy head teachers, I volunteered in my local primary school. It's amazing how helpful you feel when you're in a class of 25 kids with only one teacher.

Now if just some of these graduates helped out that'd make a big difference in schools. And I'm doing my best to convince them.

I work at a school at the moment. It can be tough, but it is a hugely rewarding experience. I agree with you, attitude is a very big problem. If people sit around complaining instead of getting out there and grafting, then things will only get worse. If you're that desperate, start a dog walking service. I fully accept that plenty of people do look for work and are bitterly disappointed to find out that there isn't any, but it's the workshy who stay at home who are a big problem. They're not even trying. If you accept that there are no jobs, therefore everything sucks and sit at home, that's the wrong mentality. Can't find work with someone else? Start your own business, even if it's as simple as window washing or dog walking.

I can't get my head around all the facts involved in it but I haven't heard a single good thing from the people it's empowering. And with several good friends studying medicine, that really worries me.

Some people who would be empowered do agree with the reforms, that's almost a statistical certainty. But the senior people, and institutions such as several Royal Colleges don't.

Yes, the NHS needs to change. But for God's sake, listen to the people who know their stuff and really take on board their advice. If the Royal Colleges of GPs, Nurses and Midwives disagree with the reforms. Ask yourself, why? Then, ask them why. Then ask them how they, the people with the inside knowledge, would do things differently.

 

[Keef]

If the Eurozone can be brought back to stability

But how do you make it do that? The market wants to fall apart very badly. I wants to have a depression. The market is like a natural phenomenon that just does what it does; the boom that happened years ago was unnatural and now we're feeling the effects of that. If we never would have messed with the markets it would have imploded back in 2008 but we'd all be up and running again by now. Instead, we still haven't hit rock bottom. All the governments are doing is digging the hole even deeper and delaying the inevitable. We're all in the same boat because all our governments are doing the same thing.

 

[ExigeEvan]

But how do you make it do that?

I don't know.

The market wants to fall apart very badly. I wants to have a depression. The market is like a natural phenomenon that just does what it does; the boom that happened years ago was unnatural and now we're feeling the effects of that. If we never would have messed with the markets it would have imploded back in 2008 but we'd all be up and running again by now.

I agree with this. But while growth may be stronger and more stable by this point, would the economy actually be in a better position?

Instead, we still haven't hit rock bottom. All the governments are doing is digging the hole even deeper and delaying the inevitable. We're all in the same boat because all our governments are doing the same thing.

I disagree. I think, at least the UK, is going in the right direction but it's going to be a long, long journey to generating enough surplus to pay off the debt.

 

[Keef]

What is the UK doing to deal with it?

The direction the US and some Euro countries are taking, the bailouts and whatnot, is doing nothing but devaluing our currencies and prices go up but all the people poorer.