Buick or Pontiac Must Go?

[Double_R]

Maybe now some people have a closer idea of why I generally dislike american cars. If I pay for a merc I dont want to hear that a car that costs half the price shares most of its components with my car. I want my car to be individual with manufactures trying to be the best in their segments and not just sharing parts but always being innovative. I also dislke companies like GM. I dont like it that they control all these companies as they make worse cars than if they were run seperately as thses big companies look to make a fast buck. There would be no talk of phasing out buick or pontiac if they were run seperatly as the owners would go to the end of the world to keep theyre brand alive and make it better.

 

[Firebird]

Maybe now some people have a closer idea of why I generally dislike american cars. If I pay for a merc I dont want to hear that a car that costs half the price shares most of its components with my car.

Mercurys ARE American cars, goobernuts.

 

[Driftster]

Mercurys ARE American cars, goobernuts.

I think he knows that, i'm goin out on a limb as to saying He doesn't like american cars because you can buy a mercury and there will be another american car out there that is almost identical but half the cost.

He's saying there is a big difference between a Honda Accord and a Acura TL, but not much difference between a Murcury Sable and a Buick somethin or other

 

[a6m5]

He's saying there is a big difference between a Honda Accord and a Acura TL, but not much difference between a Murcury Sable and a Buick somethin or other

That would be Ford Taurus.

 

[1X83Z]

HELLO! you guys should read the likes of motortrend and Car and Driver more often
it's VAG...volkswagen Audi group...they share platforms, and the VW Taoureg shares a platform with Porsche's Cayenne

My God! Does the Chevrolet Tahoe share with the GMC Yukon!?

Here's one I bet Motor Trend didn't teach you, Sniffs: the Volkswagen Golf and Porsche Cayenne share an engine. Unfortunately, it's true.

Saturn is being moved upmarket, as many people have said, to fill the whole left by Oldsmobile.

This is going to be a rather hard position to justify, so I ask you now...

No, I'm not missing the point. Saturn is building cars on the same platform as Chevy. The ION and the Cavalier are the same car. The engine, transmission, and chassis are all the same. The only difference is the looks and small features. This is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT "deal" than Audi vs. BMW.

No it's not. Just because the cars fall under the same umbrella company, why can't they compete to be the best cars they can be? That's my point. Audi and BMW are two different makes - GM needs to start pretending its brands are too so they can push for better cars.

I DROVE the VUE Redline on a track, and I don't care how fast you think it is. It is crap.

See, this is the problem. You drove a small SUV on a track. You drove a vehicle that largely appeals to small families and single women ... on a track.

So what are these "features" you keep referring to? The most basic way to move a brand upmarket is to address interior material deficiencies, and they haven't bothered.

They aren't moving upmarket, he's off. Standard spec on the Vue V6 is, aside from the most powerful and largest engine in its class, a 5-speed auto, traction and ABS, 17" alloys, leather steering wheel, power windows, locks, and mirrors, keyless entry, CD, compass, outside-temp indicator, compass, auto headlights. Plus options are really cheap. No question it's best-in-class. We (Nissan) consistently find that the vast majority of magazines care about interior materials and the vast majority of buyers prefer features and don't care about interior quality as long as stuff doesn't break.

 

[The359]

Obviously you missed all of GM's discussions since Detroit with the introduction of the Sky and the Aura that Saturn will no longer be the cheap, plastic, economy brand of General Motors. They are moving upmarket by integrating a lot of Opel/Vauxhall cars into the lineup (see: Cadillac Catera) as cheap yet unique upscale cars.

It's the entire reason a cheap brand like Saturn is getting a product like the Sky, a vehicle that SHOULD have been the Buick Velite...

If you don't believe me, I suggest you go listen to GM, because they've been saying it for 2 months now.

 

[Double_R]

Mercurys ARE American cars, goobernuts.

I know that mercurys are american.

 

[Sniffs]

all cars share parts with all members of the paren't companies's various owned properties, that has been standard operating procedure for at least a decade. in otherwords, m5power, i knew that allready, doof!!

I sougest, Double R, you be a bit carefull referring to a "merc"...I confused several british freinds, who use the abbrevriation for mercedes instead of mercury.
Edit: London? are you sure your not refering to a Mercedes instead?

I hope GM doesn't take this "imported americanized Opels" seriously...they're not selling in the US cause they keep getting a "mediocer" rating at best....Sometimes I wonder if they're sending up the Vauxhall versions instead!

 

[1X83Z]

Obviously you missed all of GM's discussions since Detroit with the introduction of the Sky and the Aura that Saturn will no longer be the cheap, plastic, economy brand of General Motors. They are moving upmarket by integrating a lot of Opel/Vauxhall cars into the lineup (see: Cadillac Catera) as cheap yet unique upscale cars.

It's the entire reason a cheap brand like Saturn is getting a product like the Sky, a vehicle that SHOULD have been the Buick Velite...

If you don't believe me, I suggest you go listen to GM, because they've been saying it for 2 months now.

What about the Relay's intense cheapness? And the Ion? And the stupid names? I'll see it when I believe it.

in otherwords, m5power, i knew that allready, doof!!

Yeah? Prove it. Which engine was in the Golf and the Cayenne, doof?

 

[bone324]

We (Nissan) consistently find that the vast majority of magazines care about interior materials and the vast majority of buyers prefer features and don't care about interior quality as long as stuff doesn't break.

Well, you (Nissan) are wrong. That's why you (Nissan) will never outsell Honda or Toyota.

See, this is the problem. You drove a small SUV on a track. You drove a vehicle that largely appeals to small families and single women ... on a track.

No, this isn't the problem. I drove it on a track, which means I know EXACTLY what it's capable of. I have driven economy cars on public roads harder than I drove the Redline on the track, it was absolutely pitiful. I have a small family and my wife was single until recently. I thought it was a joke and so did she.

Just because the cars fall under the same umbrella company, why can't they compete to be the best cars they can be? That's my point. Audi and BMW are two different makes - GM needs to start pretending its brands are too so they can push for better cars.

Yes. Audi and BMW are two different makes. Saturn, Chevy, Buick, and Pontiac are not. They are multiple divisions under a single manufacturer. They each try to appeal to a DIFFERENT demographic. But their products are not significantly different. Instead of shopping Saturn against Honda, consumers are shopping Saturn against Chevy. So they compete against themselves. Meanwhile, Honda and Toyota continue to outsell them as they are unchallenged.

 

[1X83Z]

Well, you (Nissan) are wrong. That's why you (Nissan) will never outsell Honda or Toyota.

You're so right!

No, this isn't the problem. I drove it on a track, which means I know EXACTLY what it's capable of. I have driven economy cars on public roads harder than I drove the Redline on the track, it was absolutely pitiful. I have a small family and my wife was single until recently. I thought it was a joke and so did she.

Good point!

Yes. Audi and BMW are two different makes. Saturn, Chevy, Buick, and Pontiac are not. They are multiple divisions under a single manufacturer. They each try to appeal to a DIFFERENT demographic. But their products are not significantly different. Instead of shopping Saturn against Honda, consumers are shopping Saturn against Chevy. So they compete against themselves. Meanwhile, Honda and Toyota continue to outsell them as they are unchallenged.

Correct indeed!

 

[Sniffs]

Yeah? Prove it. Which engine was in the Golf and the Cayenne, doof?

dude, I just got back into the car magazines with my first subscription since Hot Rod in the early ninties...at least this time I'm getting the current stuff. and, FYI, wise guy, I meant about companies sharing parts...and I'd bet the shared engine was...*thinks* something used in either the Pasaat (yeah, right) or the Phateon that Porsche orig worked on

We (Nissan) consistently find that the vast majority of magazines care about interior materials and the vast majority of buyers prefer features and don't care about interior quality as long as stuff doesn't break.

that isn't wrong. Consumer Reports gripes constantly about interior material quality anymore, how well things are put together, and the required goodies. even the likes of Motortrend has been having a gripe about interiors lately...and that's saying something from a magazine that quotes almost nothing but the performance figures at you

 

[1X83Z]

dude, I just got back into the car magazines with my first subscription since Hot Rod in the early ninties...at least this time I'm getting the current stuff. and, FYI, wise guy, I meant about companies sharing parts...and I'd bet the shared engine was...*thinks* something used in either the Pasaat (yeah, right) or the Phateon that Porsche orig worked on

Okay - so don't call me names unless you can back it up. I really don't care if you know the engine or not, but personal insults aren't cool with me unless you're joking and I know it. That's why I'm not going to argue with bone324 - he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's not about to admit it. It's a waste of my time, because it's very soon going to degenerate into name-calling.

The engine was Volkswagen's 3.2-liter V6, used in the Volkswagen Golf R32 (sold only in 2004) and also the Porsche Cayenne V6. Cayenne debuted in 2003 without a V6 but slower-than-expected sales forced the smaller engine's addition the following year. Weak performance prompted the addition of a manual transmission to the Cayenne V6 for 2005, but performance is still subpar for a Porsche. Don't beat yourself up for not knowing that one - it's useless, minute automotive trivia.

 

[Sniffs]

huh...then now come the R32 was covered in some of my very recent MT's? shoulda figured, though.

 

[1X83Z]

huh...then now come the R32 was covered in some of my very recent MT's? shoulda figured, though.

It was a limited-production model, meaning it had just one model year but a very long one. Hypothetically new ones are still on sale (AutoTrader would probably list a few non-titled ones still).

 

[Mecal]

eeep!

i like Pontiac and Buick!

---

in anycase, im 17, and drive a Buick. and you better believe i dont go under the speed limit
anyways, yes, mostly senior citizens drive them, and they do go under the speedlimit, as most do.

uh... so yeah, anyways i want to find out more about this thing. Lousy GM and their loss in money *shakes fist*

 

[a6m5]

in anycase, im 17, and drive a Buick. and you better believe i dont go under the speed limit
anyways, yes, mostly senior citizens drive them, and they do go under the speedlimit, as most do.

I'm sorry about the Buick jokes earlier. I hope, I didn't offend any Buick fans out there.

uh... so yeah, anyways i want to find out more about this thing. Lousy GM and their loss in money *shakes fist*

According to the MSN report I was reading today, GMs business is not going to get better any time soon. This guy was saying GM stock recently had the worst clash since the 80's. He also warned people not to buy GM stocks, just because it's cheap at the moment, and noted those stocks won't be recovering next few months. 👎 Perhaps MrktMkr have an input on this?

P.S. Another MSN report suggested that downsizing is the way to go for GM, but I saw someone(can't remember the network) say that GM dumping Pontiac/Buick is very unlikely. I can't see it happening either.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

According to the MSN report I was reading today, GMs business is not going to get better any time soon. This guy was saying GM stock recently had the worst clash since the 80's. He also warned people not to buy GM stocks, just because it's cheap at the moment, and noted those stocks won't be recovering next few months. 👎 Perhaps MrktMkr have an input on this?

Maybe...

Here are my thoughts. Analysts, which I usually don't pay any attention to, hate the stock, EPS trends have broken through 0 and fell off the edge of the planet, the stock price has taken a continuous beating, almost all of its assets are financed, the company is losing market share, an increasing amount of shares are being shorted, and the debt-to-equity ratio is embarassingly high.

P.S. Another MSN report suggested that downsizing is the way to go for GM, but I saw someone(can't remember the network) say that GM dumping Pontiac/Buick is very unlikely. I can't see it happening either.

Most likely not.

 

[super cirrus]

No, this isn't the problem. I drove it on a track, which means I know EXACTLY what it's capable of. I have driven economy cars on public roads harder than I drove the Redline on the track, it was absolutely pitiful. I have a small family and my wife was single until recently. I thought it was a joke and so did she.

SUVs aren't meant to be driven hard for one thing. I corner better in my mom's corolla better than I do in my aunts expedition. Try using the Vue for what its for. Did you pick up some groceries? Drop the kids off at soccer practice? Drive it to high school? If not, your not the market they're trying to sell it to.

Yes. Audi and BMW are two different makes. Saturn, Chevy, Buick, and Pontiac are not. They are multiple divisions under a single manufacturer. They each try to appeal to a DIFFERENT demographic. But their products are not significantly different. Instead of shopping Saturn against Honda, consumers are shopping Saturn against Chevy. So they compete against themselves. Meanwhile, Honda and Toyota continue to outsell them as they are unchallenged.

And that means which ever car they buy, the money goes to GM.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

SUVs aren't meant to be driven hard for one thing. I corner better in my mom's corolla better than I do in my aunts expedition. Try using the Vue for what its for. Did you pick up some groceries? Drop the kids off at soccer practice? Drive it to high school? If not, your not the market they're trying to sell it to.

The End.

And that means which ever car they buy, the money goes to GM.

And yet they still lose market share!

 

[bone324]

That's why I'm not going to argue with bone324 - he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's not about to admit it.

Here's the facts:
You're extolling the virtues of a car you've never even driven. You've decided after reading some magazine articles that you're the expert. After I DROVE THE CAR, I give you my opinion, which differs from yours, and all of a sudden I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

That's why I'm not going to argue with bone324 - he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's not about to admit it.

Here's the facts:
You're extolling the virtues of a car you've never even driven. You've decided after reading some magazine articles that you're the expert. After I DROVE THE CAR, I give you my opinion, which differs from yours, and all of a sudden I don't know what I'm talking about.

I was afraid this would happen...

 

[super cirrus]

And yet they still lose market share!

heh, Yep. If they were selling multiple verions of good cars instead of multiple versions of crappy cars, GM's plan might actually work.

 

[1X83Z]

Here's the facts:
You're extolling the virtues of a car you've never even driven. You've decided after reading some magazine articles that you're the expert.

See, those aren't facts. I have driven eight seperate Vues a total of ten times. Of those vehicles, six were 3.5-liter V6 models, one was a four-cylinder, and one was a 3-liter model. After careful consideration and a week holed in my study checking the facts, last year I gave Vue the 2004 Car of the Year nod. I've recommended the Vue V6 to nearly 35 people, seven of which have actually made the purchase, and all of whom are happy. I pride myself on knowing the facts which is exactly why I won't argue with someone who doesn't (that's you!).

And that means which ever car they buy, the money goes to GM.

You're the coolest person ever. Not only did you say two obviously correct things, but you're a Cirrus fan! (one of very few, I presume) Rock on!

 

[Mecal]

I'm sorry about the Buick jokes earlier. I hope, I didn't offend any Buick fans out there.

heh, its ok.

According to the MSN report I was reading today, GMs business is not going to get better any time soon. This guy was saying GM stock recently had the worst clash since the 80's. He also warned people not to buy GM stocks, just because it's cheap at the moment, and noted those stocks won't be recovering next few months. 👎 Perhaps MrktMkr have an input on this?

P.S. Another MSN report suggested that downsizing is the way to go for GM, but I saw someone(can't remember the network) say that GM dumping Pontiac/Buick is very unlikely. I can't see it happening either.

well, if they stop making buick, then maybe mine will be worth more

 

[super cirrus]

See, those aren't facts. I have driven eight seperate Vues a total of ten times. Of those vehicles, six were 3.5-liter V6 models, one was a four-cylinder, and one was a 3-liter model. After careful consideration and a week holed in my study checking the facts, last year I gave Vue the 2004 Car of the Year nod. I've recommended the Vue V6 to nearly 35 people, seven of which have actually made the purchase, and all of whom are happy. I pride myself on knowing the facts which is exactly why I won't argue with someone who doesn't (that's you!).





You're the coolest person ever. Not only did you say two obviously correct things, but you're a Cirrus fan! (one of very few, I presume) Rock on!

thanks!! I try.

 

[Sniffs]

Personally...Tell GM to chop out all the deadwood...mabey pare it down to luxury, Sporty and Standard...and that's it
and, for pete's sakes...stop sending vectras over here! the get permanent Mediocre ratings.

 

[Double_R]

Quote:
Originally Posted by super cirrus

SUVs aren't meant to be driven hard for one thing. I corner better in my mom's corolla better than I do in my aunts expedition. Try using the Vue for what its for. Did you pick up some groceries? Drop the kids off at soccer practice? Drive it to high school? If not, your not the market they're trying to sell it to.

SUVs which are good around a track:

BMW X5
Porsche Cayenne

 

[Joey D]

I guess you've never heard of a Typhoon then, M5 can enlighten you on them just as well as I can. They are a great track SUV, figutivly speaking of course. They are low, AWD, and have 4.3L turbochraged goodness.

 

[Double_R]

I guess you've never heard of a Typhoon then, M5 can enlighten you on them just as well as I can. They are a great track SUV, figutivly speaking of course. They are low, AWD, and have 4.3L turbochraged goodness.

Ahahahha. You are just looking for something to argue with me now. I never said anything about any car manufactur not being able to make good track SUVs. All I was pointing out with my post is that there are SUVs which are good around a track.