Buttkicker Options - Experience Needed

[lemansfanatic]

You would have to research your chair to find out what type of coating/sealant it uses over the carbon weave before you would look for the correct bonding agent. Honestly, i would use very thin diameter carraige bolts or some other type of flathead screws and countersink them into a metal baseplate that will keep them from digging into the carbon fiber. Epoxy will be very expensive

 

[fatkrakr]

If your not mounting directly to the seat, but to the frame, you may want to remove the isolators. The only thing youll be isolating with them is your seat. Kinda defeats the purpose. I have my isolators between the frame and floor so the whole rig vibrates.

 

[readyfe]

If your not mounting directly to the seat, but to the frame, you may want to remove the isolators. The only thing youll be isolating with them is your seat. Kinda defeats the purpose. I have my isolators between the frame and floor so the whole rig vibrates.

I might just start out with the isolators in place, and just the BK-Advance running the LFE signal. Then test without the Isolators to feel the difference.

Once I'm happy with a final setting then will move onto the L&R channels with the Mini LFE's.

Gamepod themselves suggested with the Evo PRO Carbon Fibre seat, users aren't using the isolators at all...

Thanks for the info so far...

 

[Mr Latte]

Glad to see you got your delivery.

The isolators Gamepod use are rather small.
If your for running the seat direct onto the runners and the main frame without the isolators on the seat. Anyways I've photographed for you what I had on my old Gamepod using good sized isolators under the main frame. This will keep the vibrations within the frame and worked well for me in the past.

Gamepod Foot
Remove the bolt from foot or get some others M8 (i think)

Clarke Tactile 2.5" Rubber Isolator
Available Here

Use the bolt and get a washer

Slide in through already drilled hole and connect to the Gamepod frame

Comparison of Gamepod foot and these isolators.

 

[readyfe]

I've got the Buttkicker Wireless kit feet which I was using under my make shift platform with the garden chair. I could use them but as you can see from the pictures I've got the whole rig sitting on 25mm rubber tiles which should achieve the same thing ? (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BEST-PRI...ATIO-RUBBER-TILES-25mm-x-500mm-/290682507597?)

This from Lee at Gamepod: "Although the rubber isolators do add more flex to the seat as this helps the vibration from the Buttkicker travel through the seat. Although as the EVO Pro seat already has a degree of flex as the seat is made of carbon fibre some people prefer it without the rubbers. It is all personal preference really."

So if I understand this correctly, becasue the isolators separate the seat base from the frame, the Advanced vibrations mounted on the EVO plate will be felt upwards only. And if there's any BK on the frame below them, then the isolators would reduce the amount of vibration making it to the seat and only affect the frame ?

 

[Mr Latte]

It pretty much will be personal preference.

If you want the tactile to go into the frame then yes you want to isolate the frame to the floor. Having this will let the tactile be felt more also in the front of the cockpit. You may like that but a future tactile unit to the underside of the pedal platform will work great with the front of the cockpit.

Using the BKA isolators instead of those skinny/taller Gamepod ones on the seat may do a better job with less flexing. Having the isolators on the seat will likely give a better tactile experience in the seat with minimised leakage into the frame.

Take note if you place the L/R tactile on the side of the seat base really the only contact with the seat is through the mounts, because the seat is raised on the underneath section isn't it? Therefore most of the tactile from a side mounted tactile is going to do little for the seat.

Understand you do not want to drill into seat but still consider then placing some wood under the seat that is in contact with the seat underside and within the gap area. All you need is contact to the underside to the seat and the wood fixed secure to the base. Cut a hole out of the metal BK plate for your L/R tactile to poke through and attach these to the wood.

Hey Presto no holes drilled into your seat and tactile going to the under side of your seat via contact to the wood. Even consider a gap in the wood or separate pieces for left & right if you want.

Personally I think this is the best option but you may prefer to do something different.

 

[Dragon_Dude]

Maybe one of the more experienced can jump in here (and while I'm envious of where you're at) but some may suggest rubber isolators in two separate places for your set up: between the frame itself and the seat mount (for the gamer2), and also the timber base and where it is screwed into the seat frame (Mini LFE's) - 'apparently' the effect is greatly enhanced with them added.

Let me elaborate on why I didn't immediately add isolators...because I was performing what your talking about now readyfe. Let me state this first and foremost, I am not trying to step on anyone's toes here. My back round (education) is in Architecture and engineering in general, my profession for the last 25yrs has been in the manufacturing of specialty metals (high tech steel alloys, titanium, zirconium, etc.). With that said let me give my professional opinion on some of the ideas here...gluing your transducer=bad idea for too many reasons to get into. Wood as a medium for vibrational transfer...not as good as a piece of metal, hence the reason tuning forks are made from metal, wood has natural dampening properties. Isolating the entire bottom of my frame with the proper rubber compound has had the single greatest effect enhancing attribute thus far in my tactile development. Using a metal plate to attach your mini's to is your best solution that I can think of, their will be far less vibrational loss than u think transferring the vibrations from the plate up through the four connecting bolts to the seat. The carbon fiber seat will diffuse more vibrational energy than the metal bolts transferring the energy (has to do with the material and structure matrix). Hope no one feels that I've offended them but feel free to research the suggestions I've made.

Addendum: I just looked at your Game Pod pix but it's hard to see exactly how the 4 bolts connect to the seat via the sides. If their is not a lot of surface area of the metal side brackets actually in contact with the seat then you may want to consider fabricating some type of shim to achieve this. Or situate the plate so that it is in contact with the underside of the seat. If you do this I would recommend a thin rubber gasket in between to reduce unwanted noise.

Ps. Happy Fathers Day to all the Dads in here!

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm not offended if "readyfe" wants to take on my suggestions or other recommendations made by others whatsoever.

I think he needs to show the Buttkicker plate etc in photos for those that are unsure to see it. What I propose I know will work from using the exact same Gamepod seat mount.

Wood can actually be a superb tactile platform, particularly solid wood, hence why it is used in many home cinema seats and see many AV specialist forums were guys modify their sofas with tactile.

The wood I refer to only needs to be approx 2" deep and be big enough to mount the Mini LFE onto. As long as it is secure and touches the bottom of the seat is enough. It can be painted etc to not effect the appearance too.

I said earlier if he wants really superb L/R effects to buy the "Dayton Pucks" and stuff them up in behind the seats covers for the sides and shoulder. I experimented with this a little, still more to do but it was fantastic. With the right isolation and low powered amplifier (to control their noise and rattling) this with the under L/R tactile will give a true stereo tactile throughout the whole seat unlike any sold cockpit on the market.

Further combined with the extra strong tactile (LFE) from the Advance felt throughout the mount points it will also be felt right up the back of the seat. Keeping the L/R tactile contact areas separate and not all the tactile going through the seat mounts at once.

I'm for doing this myself but also using surround channels on the back and sides of the seat (shown before) so I know how good my recommendation will be. The only concern is with PC and the upcoming "Sim Vibe" if the roles of certain tactile need to be changed or turned down/off.

If someone finds a better performing seat solution I'm all open to what they do.

 

[Dragon_Dude]

Well for me it's intriguing to learn new fields of study and I bow done before your tactile ness Latte lol. Though the differences may be a moot point as far as the transducers go, transferring vibrations is all about rigidity and grain matrix of the transfer medium. In our hobby cost vs. "do I really need this" or go with what's at hand are weighed also. Very high end audio/video tables are made from metal with a metal honeycombed core structure sandwiched between two plates with the addition of self leveling pneumatic or fluid filled cylinders to create total isolation. Here is an example of frequency isolation but what can be taken away for our purpose is properties of materials to achieve our required goals.

https://www.cvimellesgriot.com/Prod...calGuide/Fundamentals-Vibration-Isolation.pdf

 

[Mr Latte]

Well look, I'm no expert or technical wizard regards such but I can only give advice based on things I tried with tactile and the rather unique "Gamepod / Buttkicker" seat attachment.

 

[readyfe]

Dragon_Dude & Mr Latte - Thank you both for very important input.

for someone who has no knowledge of tactile and no knowledge of isolation finding a balance is key and someone on the outer can read this and work in their own application.

Using both yours and others input is helping me understand how best to do this so I don't have to re-do it. Yes some people like trial and error, but I'm the type to want to do something once only becasue others have done it before me.

I will upload a picture tonight with the bottom of the gamepod and how it all attaches, I think this will help.

I know I will mount my BK-Advance to the EVO Tray - which is part of the seat base that has the 4 bolts holding the seat. Currently this seat base mounts to the rails which in between has the isolators (which are quite soft, discussed earlier).

The challenge I have is mounting the Mini-LFE's in a tactile L&R. While I took on the wood option, my father is a welder by trade so I instantly was thinking about a metal solution anyway.

The question I have is rather than mount on the bottom of the seat, is it possible to make a metal shim that is fixed to the lower part of the back of the seat for L&R tactile ? This way I don't have to cut out two holes in the EVO tray/seat base to fit them in.

Another option for location is to mount each MiniLFE and the side of the chair itself (with a metal shim and rubber gasket). While it's not below, it is on each side ..?

I like the idea of the Pucks to tuck in to the upper part - this will require it's own amp and EQ also ?

Thanks again..

 

[Mr Latte]

Like I said mate, you feel free to do what you think is best for you.
Tactile is very much personal preference too.

If you game on PC I would hold off adding the Mini BK just for now to see what is happening with "Simvibe". The Dayton Pucks make a right bit of noise if used on full channels so yeah a second EQ would be useful for them. If you have the money get those first as they will be easy to install and think you will be rather impressed with their performance.

You may even feel no need to use the Mini LFE under the seat if you add the "Pucks" and these could be used on pedals etc.

*Edit

I have a mission for you should you choose to accept it.
Noticed your into RC cars

Idea: Brake Rumble!
Using the principle of CSP but working via Tactile:

Take an RC Transmitter Analogue Stick.
Have it attached in some form to a "Brake Pedal"
As the pedal moves it moves the stick forward.
An RC reciever connected to servo moves as the pedal is depressed.
The servo could be attached to an analogue volume slider.
The volume slider ranges from mute to increased volume depending on pedal depression.
As volume increase it operates a Buttkicker etc.

Is this possible do you think?

 

[readyfe]

It's definitely possible, but something will still need to send a dedicated audio signal to the BK constantly for it to always be ready. I have a feeling after reading a bit about this SimVibe they may have it covered... I havent even scratched the surface and I spend my nights researching and making more room in the garage.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__9041__Hobby_King_2_4Ghz_6Ch_Tx_Rx_V2_Mode_1_.html
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__16257__HK15178_Analog_Servo_10g_1_4kg_0_09s.html

All under $30..!

 

[Mr Latte]

It's definitely possible, but something will still need to send a dedicated audio signal to the BK constantly for it to always be ready. I have a feeling after reading a bit about this SimVibe they may have it covered... I havent even scratched the surface and I spend my nights researching and making more room in the garage.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__9041__Hobby_King_2_4Ghz_6Ch_Tx_Rx_V2_Mode_1_.html
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__16257__HK15178_Analog_Servo_10g_1_4kg_0_09s.html

All under $30..!

Interesting

Source, oh that's the easy part, a basic mp3 player or source with repeated "suitable low freq noise".
I tested a rough version of this over a year ago.

Just things I'd like to consider for experiments but would also work on console games. Their may be other hardware options or more elegant solutions and yes on PC "Simvibe" could be the start of great things for tactile.

 

[Carson79]

Lol eventually the brake/tactile idea maybe solved ....What about adding a brake light in as well lol

 

[Dragon_Dude]

Lol eventually the brake/tactile idea maybe solved ....What about adding a brake light in as well lol

I'm working on this also lol. Two solutions I've come up with so far are: 1. A micro lever switch mounted underneath the break pedal. 2. A proximity sensor positioned accordingly to activate the brake light. Also may be a way to tie into the load cell itself to send a signal? Some ideas...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0050HKB8O/?tag=gtplanet-20

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052RBHD0/?tag=gtplanet-20

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003T46T1I/?tag=gtplanet-20

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051T3BZ6/?tag=gtplanet-20

Also I may try 4 Dayton pucks out using the BK-130 amp which should work nicely with the 4 pucks.

 

[Carson79]

I like your idea's, I know it's something Latte has been pondering for sometime. Imo the pucks really are a great wee tactile unit, for their size, price and versatility! Please keep us informed of your progress Dragon

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm working on this also lol. Two solutions I've come up with so far are: 1. A micro lever switch mounted underneath the break pedal. 2. A proximity sensor positioned accordingly to activate the brake light. Also may be a way to tie into the load cell itself to send a signal?

Also I may try 4 Dayton pucks out using the BK-130 amp which should work nicely with the 4 pucks.

You have an instant sale if you can get a working solution
I was looking long ago for a close range motion type sensor to power 12V lights for brakes with little luck. I'd prefer a sensor idea so it could attached or be used on different pedals.

I would still use tactile in the pedals from game audio (just got my Gamepod pedal front end last week). However my idea for the brake could simulate the CSP but using one or more tactile to shake the full front end of your cockpit/wheel deck. I think having such working independent from the audio like this would be really cool. Depends is "Simvibe" will offer such a channel dedicated to brakes and lockups.

Lol eventually the brake/tactile idea maybe solved ....What about adding a brake light in as well lol

Bought my brake lights again well over a year ago.
I havn't a clue on how to wire them but know it will be possible.

 

[Carson79]

I knew you were still looking for a solution mate. My comment was really directed at your research in this area :-)

 

[Mr Latte]

I knew you were still looking for a solution mate. My comment was really directed at your research in this area :-)

Yeah figured...

 

[Dragon_Dude]

Initially I was interested in just an operable brake light, but including a dedicated brake tactile will require more research. Initially it seems this situation will require two switches or devices: one to complete the power circuit for the brake light and one to complete the speaker level output once the brake is activated or depressed to the point of abs or wheel lock?

 

[Dragon_Dude]

Just for $hitz n giggles I placed a bid on ebay last night on 1 Buttkicker advanced (new never used) and 1 Buttkicker mini LFE (new never used...I won both!, Advanced for $87 US and mini LFE for $60 lol. What a deal!!!

 

[HoiHman]

Just for $hitz n giggles I placed a bid on ebay last night on 1 Buttkicker advanced (new never used) and 1 Buttkicker mini LFE (new never used...I won both!, Advanced for $87 US and mini LFE for $60 lol. What a deal!!!

That's a very nice deal. 👍

To put things in perspective : i paid 400 euros for 2 mini LFE's and 1 Advance here in the Netherlands.

 

[Dragon_Dude]

That's a very nice deal. 👍

To put things in perspective : i paid 400 euros for 2 mini LFE's and 1 Advance here in the Netherlands.

And best of all free shipping! Now all I need to do is buy another amp and 4 Dayton pucks (which I'll run off the gamer amp) and I'll have all my surround channels cover

Edit: Just ordered 4 pucks from Parts Express.

 

[readyfe]

Prices here in Oz are a rip too HoiHman. My wireless kit cost $500 (other places selling it for $600) and I got my 2 x Mini-LFE's from the USA including shipping to Australia cheaper than what I'd get one here.

Awesome deal Dragon_Dude. Oh yeah, shipping from Parts Express is very pricey for AUS. Tried to order Aura's originally, shipping was double the price...

P.S. Just ordered last night 5 x OrbAudio Speakers... Arrive Monday, can't wait..!

 

[Dragon_Dude]

I just goggled those Orb speakers cuz I've never heard of them and I gotta say, from the quick look I took, man they look sweet and very high quality! I picked up my Polk RM75 set off of eBay for $100 US, they were used but in excellent condition. I figure I'll buy two aura bass shakers in a couple of weeks to attach to the sides of my seat at the reclining pivot point and run them through the rear surround channel. Then my tactile set up should go something like this:

2-Mini LFE's running L/R channel
1-Advanced thru LFE output (split to Polk subwoofer also)
1-Mini LFE for center channel
1-Gammer for rear channel
2-Aura bass shakers thru rear surround channel
4- Dayton pucks for either center or L/R channels (2 under pedals and 2 up under seat covering

 

[HoiHman]

Prices here in Oz are a rip too HoiHman. My wireless kit cost $500 (other places selling it for $600) and I got my 2 x Mini-LFE's from the USA including shipping to Australia cheaper than what I'd get one here.

Awesome deal Dragon_Dude. Oh yeah, shipping from Parts Express is very pricey for AUS. Tried to order Aura's originally, shipping was double the price...

P.S. Just ordered last night 5 x OrbAudio Speakers... Arrive Monday, can't wait..!

Prices are realy crazy here in the Netherlands:

The Buttkicker Advance LFE has a official retail price of 224 + tax + shipping, making it a total of € 276,0 ($350)

I was just about to buy one on ebay for € 189,- incl shipping to the Netherlands a few months ago.

Then i decided to call the official importer of Buttkicker and confront them with the price difference. After mailing them a printscreen of the purchase i was about to make on ebay, they agreed to sell in to me for € 199,- incl. shipping and i had it the next day.

The Buttkicker gamer kits go for 210 euro's. These prices are really insane

 

[Dragon_Dude]

Then i decided to call the official importer of Buttkicker and confront them with the price difference. After mailing them a printscreen of the purchase i was about to make on ebay, they agreed to sell in to me for € 199,- incl. shipping and i had it the next day.

The Buttkicker gamer kits go for 210 euro's. These prices are really insane

This was a really smart move because the Guitammer corp is really good to work with, they will do almost anything to keep they're customers

 

[lemansfanatic]

+1, Say what you will about their products, their customer service is really good.

 

[readyfe]

+1, Say what you will about their products, their customer service is really good.

Agreed - while I did pay a premium here in Australia for the BK Advanced I had some questions post sale and they replied within hours (not bad for the other side of the world).

More than I can say for some others vendors that dont reply at all.