Cadillac CTS-V

rovens
Well Jeremy Clarkson doesn't like it, he does think its stuningly good looking though. I would have to agree with him.
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I don't think it was that Clarkson didn't like it, but that he was put-off by the same things that most American cars have in common... Shoddy interior quality, a few nit-picks here and there styling wise, and of course the dreaded left-hand-drive-only feature. I believe that he was throughly impressed by the performance of the car, outright smoking the S4 they had on hand (mind you that it was the first generation CTS-V with the old C5 Z06's LS6) driven by the Stig.

They are indeed right when they call the Monaro a better deal. It was the same case with the GTO here in America, particularly after they gave both cars the same 6.0L LS2 from the Corvette. What it comes down to is how you like your performance sedans, and at least from my perspective, the CTS does everything that I'd want it to do and more. The fact that it has fully-defeatable everything, great styling, kick-ass American V8 power, and a fairly reasonable price make it a winner in my book.

...Sure, the M3 is (probably) almost always going to be the better car, but I'd take the CTS-V second only to it. IMO, Cadillac has come stunningly close to knocking the Germans off their stoop with a first-try, and that is indeed pretty darn impressive.

I can't wait for the next one, particularly if the 515 BHP LS7 rumors are true...
 
And my comment would be that every carmaker has a few "lemons"--which would basically render this moron's video useless a "proof" that all CTS-V's are crap. So ONE person had a problem and recorded a suspect video, that doesn't mean anything. One of my friends had a problem with her Volkswagen with only 5k miles on it. It just very rarely happends.

Oh and even if the car was a lemon I bet this moron drove it like he stole it for every one of those 11k miles...and not being able to drive a manual properly. I would blame the driver more than the car if the video was real.
 
JCE3000GT
And my comment would be that every carmaker has a few "lemons"--which would basically render this moron's video useless a "proof" that all CTS-V's are crap. So ONE person had a problem and recorded a suspect video, that doesn't mean anything. One of my friends had a problem with her Volkswagen with only 5k miles on it. It just very rarely happends.

Oh and even if the car was a lemon I bet this moron drove it like he stole it for every one of those 11k miles...and not being able to drive a manual properly. I would blame the driver more than the car if the video was real.
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Exactly. 👍
 
Poverty
Top Gear Lap Times

Audi S4: 1.30.9
Cadillac CTS-V: 1.33.3
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I'd like to point out something about the times you've posted.

Okay, the Audi S4's time... when that was tested, was the same episode when they pit that Audi against the E46 M3 (although that lap time was run in a typical top gear power lap fashion). And that time was in the dry.

The Audi S4 (or was it RS4?) that Yssman is pointing out was pit against the CTS-V in a head-to-head segment that they do sometimes that I'm certain you're aware about, as in one car chases, another follows, Jeremy usually in the car of key focus, that being the Caddy, Stig in the Audi. The Audi was chasing, the CTS in the lead, the point of that race was to see if the Audi could try to pass it.

I won't say the results of that, that's already been taken care of.

One last thing, that time for the Caddy was in ... the wet.

I'll say no more.

Till later.
 
I was looking for the S4 vs CTS-V video but couldnt find it. It was the S4 that the CTS-V was tested against, cause if it was the RS4 it would have been a no contest anyway ;)

Didnt know that the CTS-V did its lap in the rain though.
 
MatttheTuner
Hmmm...One car determines the collective reliability? Not buying that a BMW is more reliable.
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I seriously hope your joking when you're comparing GM quality to BMW quality.

You're talking about a company whose top of the line car had roof problems of all things. BMW's only major recalls lie in the 7 Series.

Cadillac reliability is not better than BMW reliability. Even despite what JD Power might say, the local dealers are all enough proof for me.
 
It'd probably lose, the last CTS-V was roughly the same as the S4 4.2 performance wise, the RS4 is notably faster than that.
 
*McLaren*
Cadillac reliability is not better than BMW reliability. Even despite what JD Power might say, the local dealers are all enough proof for me.
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Say what you will about JD Power's bias, but Cadillac is so significantly better on the reliability chart than BMW, I don't think it can be chalked up to that. I know we all want BMW to be better, in order to reinforce our 'foreign cars are better than American cars' stereotype, but it's just not the case.

Build quality is a different issue. While some of it is subjective, I tend to agree - BMW trumps Cadillac.
 
Ev0 4 drifter
seeing how the CTS-V is the higher powered version of the car, wouldn't it be fairer to test it against the RS4?
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Hes right in saying that the RS4 will pretty much beat the CTS-V. It is a good competitor to the newer S4, but the extra power makes it a bit more difficult for the CTS-V to stay ahead, if even at all. It would be a close race no less, as both cars are pretty easy to use against the M3 and C55, however with updates coming from everyone else, I think the segment will change just a bit. My guess as to performance levels...

- 1st: Cadillac CTS-V ('08): With 515 BHP, it will be hard to beat
- 2nd: BMW M3 ('08): The 400 BHP V8 and low weight will keep it a winner
- 3rd: Audi RS4: Still a great car, but the others will probably be better...
- 4th: M-B C63 AMG: More power does make it better, but unless the new C-class is absolutely awesome, I don't see it besting the others all that easy.
 
The RS4 is in a different league than the CTS-V (as in much much better and faster)...and the new M3 will probably and easily out perform the CTS-V. But I don't think the new M3 is going to out perform the RS4 on a track.
 
JCE3000GT
The RS4 is in a different league than the CTS-V (as in much much better and faster)...
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Perhaps so, but only $15k separates them on a price scale, so one could say there's some overlap there.
 
JCE3000GT
The RS4 is in a different league than the CTS-V (as in much much better and faster)...and the new M3 will probably and easily out perform the CTS-V. But I don't think the new M3 is going to out perform the RS4 on a track.
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If we may clarify for a moment, are we talking about the current Sigma I CTS-V or the next-gen Sigma II CTS-V? There is going to be at least a 100 BHP difference there, added to that a wider track and only marginally longer length. The chassis on the Sigma II CTS-V should be up-to-par with the Europeans, however, the overall weight/size of the car may be it's biggest limitation.

Poverty
The new C63 will be the underdog to watch out for next year.
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A lot of what the C63 has to offer will be decided by the new chassis and just how much AMG decides to dial it in. Given the complete turnaround by the E63 and the outrageous capabilities of the S63 and S65, the C63 could be just as nimble. We'll see I suppose, but if history plays any role in how this all works out, I'm still putting my pennies in the BMW or Cadillac cup.
 
YSSMAN
If we may clarify for a moment, are we talking about the current Sigma I CTS-V or the next-gen Sigma II CTS-V? There is going to be at least a 100 BHP difference there, added to that a wider track and only marginally longer length. The chassis on the Sigma II CTS-V should be up-to-par with the Europeans, however, the overall weight/size of the car may be it's biggest limitation.
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Bigger power yes, but let's not the forget, that the Germans are experts in making up for power, esp. the BMW M3.
 
^ I wouldn't debate that! If anything, the M3 is going to win-out on a better dialed-in suspension, lower weight, and presumably better weight balance. We'll find out for sure, but GM has been shoveling money at Cadillac for this car, particularly with the success it has had on the racing circuit and with the hardcore fans on the street. I'm hoping for the best, and as long as it is a good show between the two cars, thats all a die-hard performance enthusiast could ask for...
 
YSSMAN
If we may clarify for a moment, are we talking about the current Sigma I CTS-V or the next-gen Sigma II CTS-V? There is going to be at least a 100 BHP difference there, added to that a wider track and only marginally longer length. The chassis on the Sigma II CTS-V should be up-to-par with the Europeans, however, the overall weight/size of the car may be it's biggest limitation.
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The Sigma I platform CTS-V. The new Sigma II CTS-V is unknown to me. Got any officially annouced specs of the new CTS-V? I still hold the opinion that Cadillac is about half a decade away form being able to truly compete with the German's super saloons from their "big three". Lets remind ourself that the big three in Germany are at war with each other...a power war--and maybe a slight technology war. Which basically means Cadillac is stuck somewhere in the middle trying to compete with the other three.

Instead of it being: Cadillac vs Audi vs BMW vs Merc
Its more like: Cadillac vs Audi + BMW + Merc or more importantly: Audi + BMW + Merc vs Cadillac

Either direction you put it, it just doesn't mean good news for Cadillac. I just don't see Cadillac competing here in all honesty. BUT, let me just say this, I am in no way diminishing what Cadillac has accomplished nor am I saying that they are bad cars. What I am saying is that it is unrealistic to compare the top sport models of Cadillac to its European (German) rivals. The new CTS-V (2008) might be a hugely fast and decent quality car, I just don't see it making any dents into the armor of the RS4, M3, or E63 AMG.
 
I completely understand where you are coming from, and to be completely honest it is a tough call to make on all levels of the game. Given that the next CTS will be running current CTS-V Sigma I gear out of the door, chances are that GMPD is cooking up something pretty outrageous for the next CTS-V on the Sigma II chassis. I wouldn't suggest letting the mind run wild with ideas on the next car, the formula is pretty much laid out before us. We can probably expect the LS7 and a 6-speed manual as standard fare, and rumors are pushing power figures as high as 515 BHP. Everything is still going to be built around tests performed at the 'Ring over in Germany (just like its predecessor), and I'm sure plenty of nifty ideas are being shared between the folks at GMPD and the teams who have raced the car successfully the past few years.

What Cadillac will probably do is cause a big stir here in America, but worldwide, you are probably right in guessing that it won't do much "damage" to the other makes and models. That is indeed mostly because of the fact that Cadillac isn't looked as highly upon, and indeed it wouldn't be as much of a value across the Atlantic. However, it will be interesting to see how things play out on the streets here in America and Canada, as we often determine much of how these cars are designed and built.

...Beyond that, we have a while to know what will happen. At the earliest, the next CTS-V wouldn't show up as a prototype until the New York Auto Show a littler later in the year, and certainly wouldn't be in production until almost 2008. By that time, we'll have a good idea what BMW will do with the M3, how Mercedes will approach the presumed C63, and what exactly Audi will do to beef-up the RS4. Then it will be a free-for-all, and I expect this battle to be a very ugly, bloody, and downright awesome race to find who has the best sports sedan in the world. I'd take any of them, and although I may be pulling for Cadillac, I'm just as likely to go for the M3 and the like for different reasons...
 
Questions:

What's the curb weight of the base Sigma II CTS?

What's the weight delta between the Sigma I CTS and CTS-V?

What size rubber will the new CTS-V wear? If no one knows yet, what is the best guess?

Any fancy-schancy active suspension at work on the Sigma II?


M
 
Well, lets see what I can find there...

Sigma II CTS:

- Wheelbase: 113.4 in (same as Sigma I)
- Length: 191.6 in (1.5 in increase over Sigma I)
- Width: 72.5 in (1.9 in increase over Sigma I)
- Height: 58 in (1.3 in over Sigma I)
- Weight: Unknown (Sigma I at 3568 lbs for the V6, a few over 3900 for the CTS-V)

No official word on tire sizes specifically, however standard fare will be 17" presumably similar to the current car, and an optional sport pack (not V-series) will bump it up to 18" with the new suspension package. Presumably then the Sigma II CTS-V would start no lower than 18" and probably go as high as 20". The current CTS-V wears Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar EMT, P245/45ZR-18 96W as of late 2004 (I'm not sure if they changed), and I would expect the same Goodyear-developed tires to grace the CTS-V once again.
 
Wow, it's heavier than I thought. Slightly undertired, too. I think it's safe to assume the Sigma II will be heavier still.

Still, might be a match for the E90/E92 M3 on a high speed course since all you need is one good straight for the Caddy to make up some time. But on a technical short course, the weight is probably going to hurt it. Bad.


M
 
Hes got a point that weight will be the killer here, but I'm not so sure about the tires. Most of the other cars in the segment wear similar rubber, but it Perelli or Continental, or whatever.

More on the weight issue:

I really can't see Sigma II being all that much heavier over the current Sigma I car. The increase in dimensions, albeit quite small, should only be good for a few hundred pounds overall, so it will be interesting what the final number comes out to be. It is part of the reason why Cadillac dropped the 2.8L V6 on the car and is sticking with 3.6L versions only, outside of the V8-powered CTS-V of course.

Considering that it is a high-powered, large-in-size sport sedan, chances are that the M3 will be quicker at a tighter course (as you pointed out), however it wouldn't take much for the Sigma II CTS-V to make use of the 500+ BHP and tighten the gap on the straights. If anything, the race will be most interesting between it and the C63, largely depending on how much power Mercedes and AMG decides to fit between the fenders.
 
M5Power
It's got 18-inch Z-rated supercar tires and it's undertired?
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For it's weight and amount of power, somewhat. But so is the M3; especially up front.

Let's make some quick comparisons. Take a Lotus Elise. In base US spec, it weighs about 1980 lbs. It has a weigh distribution of roughly 39/61 front to rear. That means the front tires are carrying 772 lbs while the rear tires carry 1208 lbs. Front tires on the base Elise are 175/55-16 while the rears are 225/45-17. That means up front, the Elise has 4.41 lbs. per millemeter of tire width, while each mm of rear tire has 5.36 lbs to cope with.

Compare this with, say the E46 M3 (3450 lbs (52/48), 225s front, 255s rear), which carries 7.97 lbs up front and 6.49 out back. It's no wonder the Elise handily trumps the M3 around the skidpad (.98g vs .89g) Furthermore, the M3 asks a LOT more of it's front tires than the rears, which is why the car is a notorious understeer queen.

Now let's look at the Sigma I CTS-V. (3890 lbs (54/46), 245s front and rear). Each front tire is static loaded to the tune of 8.57 lbs./mm while the rears take 7.30/mm. The Caddy still manages a very good .87g skidpad run according to the R&T guys.

So pound for pound, the CTS-V asks more of it's tires than the M3 or Elise. There are other very important factors at work, like suspension geometry (including track and wheelbase), the exact center of gravity and of course tire quality, but generally speaking you can get a pretty good idea how much mechanical grip a car will give by looking at curb weight vs. tire width. Cadillac could have probably improved cornering performance somewhat by fitting wider tires on the car, but of course they wanted to also balance steering feel, fuel economy, unsprung weight, cost of tire replacement and so on.

YSSMAN
Hes got a point that weight will be the killer here, but I'm not so sure about the tires. Most of the other cars in the segment wear similar rubber, but it Perelli or Continental, or whatever.
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The Caddy's Goodyears are much better than the M3's ContiSportContact. (M3s were fitted with either SportContacts or PilotSport PS1, which ever was available at the factory that week) Even the gen 2 SportContact is a lousy performance tire. The PZero is also at least 2-3 generations behind in terms of design. A PilotSport PS2 is closer in performance to a Goodyear F1 Supercar.

But as I clarified above, I was really talking more about width than tire quality.


M
 
///M-Spec
Compare this with, say the E46 M3 (3450 lbs (52/48), 225s front, 255s rear), which carries 7.97 lbs up front and 6.49 out back. It's no wonder the Elise handily trumps the M3 around the skidpad (.98g vs .89g) Furthermore, the M3 asks a LOT more of it's front tires than the rears, which is why the car is a notorious understeer queen.

Now let's look at the Sigma I CTS-V. (3890 lbs (54/46), 245s front and rear). Each front tire is static loaded to the tune of 8.57 lbs./mm while the rears take 7.30/mm. The Caddy still manages a very good .87g skidpad run according to the R&T guys.

So pound for pound, the CTS-V asks more of it's tires than the M3
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Slightly, although the V's tires are better and they're both very much in the performance car realm and, as you point out, the skidpad runs are quite comparable, despite the fact that the CTS is heavier and larger.
 

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