Car and Driver, August 2007

[afc2112]

These interviews are held via translators, PDs responses are very limited, or deflecting as in them making out they didnt fully understand the question, but give a response that seems to resemble the question, cant see the journo then turning round to the big KY hey thats not the answer im looking for.

Joypad's interview was done through translators as well. And they certainly got a lot more info than this. Then again, Car & Driver is not a gaming mag, so I understand that they have a different audience.

The story itself contains no new GT5 info, really, and feels more like publicity than anything.

That's an interesting perspective and I can certainly see that happening as I don't really see C&D desperately needing a story on GT5 at this time. It's very possible that PD invited them.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I think someone around here removed all the redundant cars from the GT4 car list (like the Skylines and the Evos), and they came up with about 300 cars.

It was a good deal more than that, close to 400 if I recall, and was quite subjectively biased, much like the term "redundant", often lumping cars together that have significant differences in real life and in the game.

Even the much maligned Skyline collection is unique for those that can appreciate the subtle and not so subtle differences among the 30 similar Skylines and not so similar 15 other Skylines... but anyone suggesting GT4 has about 420 redundant cars really should stick to playing arcade style car games.

Personally, if they did 150-200 non-redundant cars with unique, detailed interiors, I'd be satisfied.

Agreed. Fortunately it looks like we may get a lot more than that. 👍

It's not so simple, and no it hasn't worked for Forza. While Forza has damamge it is by no means "done realistically". Manufacturers are incredibly strigent about allowing damage to their cars, and quite often offering more money will not alter their stance. This is not an excuse, it's a fact. Feel free to challenge me and show me proof that it is wrong if you believe so, but I assure you, real proof is not out there.

I agree.

However, my feeling is that at least for me, visual damage is just bonus eye-candy. The problem with GT4 like nearly all the sim car driving games is that you can make unrealistic lap times and win races by using the race track “barriers”, cutting across chicanes, and smashing into AI cars to slow you down before a corner and to help you turn into the corner.

If “damage” is done by effecting physical performance, or even serious time penalties… not like the pathetic 5-sec penalty in GT4’s Special Conditions events – then that will put an end to al the arcade driving techniques that result in unrealistic lap and race times, that would otherwise ruin online races and leader boards.

Yes, I’d also like to have visual damage, but if manufacturers wont allow that for road cars, at the least I hope PD offers an option for some type of performance and or realistic race penalties for those who smash into other cars, take short cuts off the track, and use the track walls to their advantage.

 

[DuckRacer]

Thought I'd post this up since it came from "Car and Drive" (I'm assuming Car and Driver". I'm not sure if there's any new info or not.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=167050

The release of the highly-anticipated Gran Turismo 5 on PS3 could be pushed back as far as late 2008 says director Kaunori Yamauchi, who wants the game to be absolutely perfect before it's released.

Speaking with US-based Car and Drive magazine (via Gamers-Creed), Yamauchi touted spring 2008 as the earliest that the game could see release, but affirmed that Sony is more than willing to push that date back to the end of the year should his team need more time.

Yamauchi made reference to the cars as being one of the key time-consuming aspects of developing the game. It's taking 180 days for someone to build a car in the levels of detail required for GT5, as oppose to 30 days for GT3 and just one day for the original GT on PSone.

Advertisement:

Crash damage has also once again been ruled out, Yamauchi saying that some companies don't want their cars smashed up in the game (despite damage featuring on the licensed cars of PGR, Forza and other games).

He also says adding the perfect damage system would mean changing the physics model of the game, and modelling each panel of every car separately, both normal and crumpled, with different lighting and shadows. Again, if other games can do it, why can't GT? They're not exactly short of time.

He did say, however, that crash damage could possibly be delivered as a post-release download, and that downloadable cars were a certainty.

Meanwhile, you'll have to make do with the minimalist offerings provided in GT HD for another year or more.

 

[seizure_]

from www.computerandvideogames.com

The release of the highly-anticipated Gran Turismo 5 on PS3 could be pushed back as far as late 2008 says director Kaunori Yamauchi, who wants the game to be absolutely perfect before it's released.

Speaking with US-based Car and Drive magazine (via Gamers-Creed), Yamauchi touted spring 2008 as the earliest that the game could see release, but affirmed that Sony is more than willing to push that date back to the end of the year should his team need more time.

Yamauchi made reference to the cars as being one of the key time-consuming aspects of developing the game. It's taking 180 days for someone to build a car in the levels of detail required for GT5, as oppose to 30 days for GT3 and just one day for the original GT on PSone.

Crash damage has also once again been ruled out, Yamauchi saying that some companies don't want their cars smashed up in the game (despite damage featuring on the licensed cars of PGR, Forza and other games).

He also says adding the perfect damage system would mean changing the physics model of the game, and modelling each panel of every car separately, both normal and crumpled, with different lighting and shadows. Again, if other games can do it, why can't GT? They're not exactly short of time.

He did say, however, that crash damage could possibly be delivered as a post-release download, and that downloadable cars were a certainty.

Meanwhile, you'll have to make do with the minimalist offerings provided in GT HD for another year or more.

 

[seizure_]

article can be found here @ http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=167050

 

[TheCracker]

So, a GT game's release date gets pushed back once more - hardly a suprise is it. I'll take it without the highly detailed interiors and with some form of crash damage physics please if we're not likely to see it for another 18 months or so.

 

[DuckRacer]

Ok, I re-read this article again and I'm confused. I know he's talking about regular production cars with this...

Crash damage has also once again been ruled out, Yamauchi saying that some companies don't want their cars smashed up in the game (despite damage featuring on the licensed cars of PGR, Forza and other games).

...but is he talking about race cars with this?

He also says adding the perfect damage system would mean changing the physics model of the game, and modelling each panel of every car separately, both normal and crumpled, with different lighting and shadows. Again, if other games can do it, why can't GT? They're not exactly short of time.

He did say, however, that crash damage could possibly be delivered as a post-release download, and that downloadable cars were a certainty.

 

[Scaff]

This is no different to the info already posted in the existing Car and Driver thread, as such I'm merging them.

The content of the entire Car and Driver piece is of indeterminate age and I strongly suspect quite dated. After all everything mentioned in it (such as damage being a download) was first mentioned when GT:HD was going to be the final version. I personally would take the Joystick (French) article and video with more credence. After all that at least offered more solid new info (such as in-car dash views) and talked about damage as being part of the final release.

The whole C&D piece just seems sloppy to me, but I guess E3 will let us know more.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Duke]

The release of the highly-anticipated Gran Turismo 5 on PS3 could be pushed back as far as late 2008 says director Kaunori Yamauchi, who wants the game to be absolutely perfect before it's released.

So, what the hell happened with GT4, then? It came out a year or more after any reasonably predicted date, also supposedly for 'perfection' tuning purposes. They obviously took a whole day testing the actual gameplay, and must have spent a solid half hour putting together the prize car list. After lunch that day is when they coded the AI field selector. So what were they doing for the other 363 days, then?

 

[TheCracker]

So, what the hell happened with GT4, then? It came out a year or more after any reasonably predicted date, also supposedly for 'perfection' tuning purposes. They obviously took a whole day testing the actual gameplay, and must have spent a solid half hour putting together the prize car list. After lunch that day is when they coded the AI field selector. So what were they doing for the other 363 days, then?

It takes ages to properly programme traffic cone physics don't you know. Who needs semi-realistic understeer/oversteer when you can have a orange plastic cone bouncing around indistinguishable from the real thing?

 

[DuckRacer]

So, what the hell happened with GT4, then? It came out a year or more after any reasonably predicted date, also supposedly for 'perfection' tuning purposes. They obviously took a whole day testing the actual gameplay, and must have spent a solid half hour putting together the prize car list. After lunch that day is when they coded the AI field selector. So what were they doing for the other 363 days, then?

They were too busy making those 52 Skylines.

 

[T5-R]

GT5 not having damage. What a suprise...not. Gotta say I'm sorry for anyone holding out any hope for GT anymore. After being a fan of GT since the beginning its now just a joke.

'Car manufacturers don't want damage' - What a load of crap, haven't they seen any other car games beyond their tunnel visioned view?!? Forza 2 does not have realistic damage but for a racing game its one of the best I've come across. The cars scratch realistically and panels bend and bumpers fly off. Crash into a wall at 100mph = car does about 8mph. Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini are in the game with damage. I've only heard this excuse since GT2...

'The games been delayed to make it as perfect as possible' - Again what a load of crap. Did GT2000, GT3, GT4 have online as promised? No. Was it released in an addon? No. Did they atleast improve the AI at all since GT1 (well a tad in GT2, but they removed that in GT3), ahaha no.

It is a great shame they are blinded by their arrogance and stubborness that they can't actually do anything new in GT. Not even do damage. Releasing damage as an addon is beyond ridiculous. RIP GT. Atleast Turn 10 did a decent GT 'sequel' with Forza and Forza 2. Forza 2 is just about everything I've wanted from a GT sequel. Apart from exhaust pops

 

[GTXLR]

Joypad's interview was done through translators as well. And they certainly got a lot more info than this. Then again, Car & Driver is not a gaming mag, so I understand that they have a different audience.



That's an interesting perspective and I can certainly see that happening as I don't really see C&D desperately needing a story on GT5 at this time. It's very possible that PD invited them.

The JOYPAD interview was translated from french initially by me and my girlfriend along with a couple of other memebers here!
Believe me for the 10 page spread it contained very very little information, even less that was new, there was much confusion over many of the elements of the conversation.
The questions were asked, but pd and KY failed to give many straight answers, and deflected with slightly off kilter replies.
The fact that the translators were used only leads to the confusion over the exact answers by the journos who attended the PR event and then pieced together an article which was clear as mud over what was to come!

The bullet points in the joypad article, were derived from references during the PR event, their was no real clarification given by PD over many of those points.
For a 10 page article to highlight so few tidt bits of info, without much in the way of substance, shows how little they got out of the PR event, they also had the bumpf that was KY parking his new GT3 car!!
I dont blame the journo's or the translators, I believe their is so little substance to GT5 at the moment (based on what KY and PD are saying or not saying across a whole range of interviews over the last 9 months or so), the next GT will be GT4HD just rebranded with some additional content, they have had to go back to working on this, since it was canned at PS3 launch, that in itself is restricting progress and concepts for GT5.
The new content for HD will be a test bed for GT5 but until its out, and feedback is returned, no decisions will be made over GT5 content until then, thats the way KAZ works, he has plenty of concepts, ive heard him talk of many possible elements time and time again, but eventually the time factor is going to play heavily on GT5, the one year delay in developement, while Sony and PD fudged together what to do next after initially scrapping GTHD, has cost developement time heavily.
It is quite shambolic.
Sony are desperately looking for showcase titles to shift the struggling PS3, this Xmas will be critical for them. The fact that in less than six months we will see the next GT title, which will feature very little new content, other than the graphical upgrade, is the reason why we havent seen or heard anything substantial out of PD, the PR events are only there to keep some interest going, but the lack of substance is indicative of the direction things are going!
PD usually like to Show off, being the top developer! that is not happening.
Instead they convieniently leave workstations on with HI def content, then leave the journos to figure out what they are seeing. That is definately not PDs usuall marketing style. they normally like to contol everytnig to the tiniest details, wow you with a little, then blow you away with the rest later!


Edit:
Ive not had an opportunity to read the full C&D article, but have seen a snapshot of the points it makes.
It seems very much as if c&d and joystick were at the same PR event.
Once again it shows that PD rehashed a great deal of previous marketing speak and info to present at the event, very little is new, even less is confirmed, much of what was discussed has been discussed many times before,lots of old Talk.
No clarification on anything from PD.

 

[afc2112]

GTXLR,

What I meant was that their interview was also conducted via translators from Japanese to French (or possibly English). I don't think KY speaks fluent French!!

I know there was not a lot of info in the Joypad article as I was among those (yourself and I believe Fanagt) who read and translated that article. I feel as if the C&D article had even less info. But again, I'll admit that they took a different angle for their non-gaming readers.

 

[harrytuttle]

It is a great shame they are blinded by their arrogance and stubborness that they can't actually do anything new in GT. Not even do damage. Releasing damage as an addon is beyond ridiculous. RIP GT. Atleast Turn 10 did a decent GT 'sequel' with Forza and Forza 2. Forza 2 is just about everything I've wanted from a GT sequel. Apart from exhaust pops

They should have at least tried. They should have gone ahead, totally screwed it up years ago, and learned from their mistakes. But they seem incapable of learning from the mistakes they do make (hence the endless list of problems with phsysics, car list, etc). PD needs to be adventurous. They need to try something if they want to be taken seriously after GTHD/GT5. FM2 may not be the best, but Turn10 has nothing to lose and are acting like it. They're hungry and they're learning fast. The next iteration (FM3) will be the deciding factor. If GT5 doesn't blow the doors off (literally, in-game), then they've pretty much just given up.

 

[Bruce Spec]

This is getting bad.

Yamauchi refuses to put damage in until it can be done realistically. re·al·is·tic: resembling or simulating real life. Guess what? When moving cars hit a solid object they get damaged. How's that for realistic.

I just want something to resemble damage. That's it. Something. Anything. Work with me here. I just want a game. And sorry, but 6 cars and one track is not a game — it's a demo.

On the rendering car excuse. Release the game with less cars — so what. I thought that what the hard drive was for — to download. Anything you render after the release of GT5 won't go to waste. You can't render anything higher than 1080p for GT6 anyway. Think about it.

I don't mind delays with games. I can live with delays. But this is just downright @*%! rude. Days before a release the original GTHD — they pull the plug. We're going to put 100% into GT5. Crap! One minute it's this, the next it's that. Online. No online. Damage. No damage. Here's a game. Nope.

Dear KAZ, how about getting off of your "so-perfect principals" and release a game that you say you're going to release. Look at all of the sports games. There's a new release every year. Each year is better than the last. Give it a try. Please. For us!

 

[SavageEvil]

Loads of disgruntled GT players here. Hey if you can't wait, then don't, no one is telling you that you should do anything that what you want to. I understand that it takes time to make things in a game of many parts on similar levels of quality. I really have no problem waiting, I can play other games in the mean time. Theres that new NFS game and Colin MacRae DIRT, I would say Forza 2, but that is Forza 1 with a brand new coat of paint and still carries on some of it predecessors niggles, reflections that aren't even the level of GT4's. Anyway, Kaz and Sony are probably trying to setup a system, GT5 will most likely be released like GT3 with a couple of hundred cars, with the others coming in as downloads, allowing you to purchase what you want as long as it's available. Soo much testing for this one game, i don't mind no visual damage, but they should include performance hits, that would greatly enhance the driver immersion, as it forces you to think about how aggressive you can drive. This generation is becoming more and more like PC's, downloads, pay to play, patches. Im going to need a bigger HD.

 

[eMke3]

Yeah I don't mind waiting either, maybe it's for the best?! But do you remember KY talking about some big surprise? I think this is it THE DELAY (Sarcasm) Oh well I guess I'll have to play another great game of GTA4 till GT5 comes out.

 

[Wolfe]

@Duke and TheCracker: 👍

PD definitely needs to stop waiting for perfection to become available and just do the best with what they've got.

And no, that doesn't include designing a game at such a grand scale that you have to cut things out and water things down just to make it work on the console that you've known all along you'd be using.

 

[slackbladder]

There's far, far too much being read into this puff piece from Car and Driver. It's not even a gaming mag. Who knows how old it is or how the interview took place. Give PD some credit as developers. The game's not even been shown publicly yet. And I think some people should read the thread before posting. There's plenty of good arguements why full vehicle damage may not be in the game (and this is FULL damage, not the cosmetic type in Forza 2 where hitting a wall at 200mph crumples the bodywork).
I think people should stop jumping to conclusions here. Personally I don't need bodywork damage in GT5 though it's still my understanding the race cars will show full damage. But I am hoping you'll have damage to wheels, suspension, brakes, electronics etc which is enough to punish people from driving like idiots.
Anyway, I'll be using the dashboard view when racing. I won't even see the cars body!

 

[TheCracker]

To be honest, after a bit of concideration, i'm actually fine with the whole 'no damage in GT5 thing'. From what i've seen of Forza's damage modelling, as slackbladder mentions above, a token gesture won't do the series justice.

The one related thing that i'd like to see implemented is some realistic collision physics. I'd like to see cars spin when driven wheels hit grass. I'd like to see a realistic loss of control when you strike a barrier. And most of all i'd like to see collisions between cars, A.I. included, not feel like a couple of bricks being smacked together. There's a strong argument saying that car damage and car collision physics must go hand in hand but i don't think this has to be the case.

 

[Duke]

Loads of disgruntled GT players here. Hey if you can't wait, then don't, no one is telling you that you should do anything that what you want to.

Yeah I don't mind waiting either, maybe it's for the best?!

I'm very patient. I can easily wait. Frankly, I don't even care about damage, because my own personal penalty system means I'll restart any race with a collision that would have hurt the car's performance.

But KY's alleged 'perfection' apparently has nothing to do with how well the game actually plays. If they paid any attention to that at all, there would not be so many race fields that include 1 incredibly dominant car, 3 approximately equal cars, and 1 total slowpoke.

If they cared about gameplay, there would not be so many series where you must buy a specific car, just to win... another copy of that specific car. How hard would it have been to plot the prize car list in such a way that you could win most of the one-make cars without having to buy them? Why not make the prize for the British GT series be a Triumph Spitfire, which you can then use to run the Spitfire races, and then make that prize be something that can be used elsewhere? Why do you have to buy a Subaru 360 to win another Subaru 360?

What purpose does Arcade Mode serve if you do not have immediate access to all the buyable cars in the game? In a game that requires a save as soon as you get into a newly-bought car, there is absolutely no justification for not allowing the player to test-drive each and every car in Arcade mode before you buy it. Every buyable car in the game should be available in Arcade mode from the moment you break the shrinkwrap. If you want to force people to play GT mode as well, fine - just do it by keeping the prize-only cars unavailable in Arcade until you win them in GT.

The way it is programmed now is just sloppy and shows total disregard for the gameplay aspect of GT4. This is why I say Yamauchi-san is full of crap when he touts the alleged "perfection" as a justification for delays. And that's without even touching the subjects of the horrible AI or the lack of online play or the wonky handling physics.

I'll happily wait years for a perfect GT game. But damned if they shouldn't deliver it, then, instead of just yakking about it.

 

[AlfaAlfa]

I'm glad it's going to be late. The later the better. I still have at least a year to go just to properly tune and test the "normal" cars in my GT4 garage, let alone the race cars and various other cars I haven't gotten around to purchasing yet. Plus, my finances will be happier the longer I can put off buying a PS3 and a hi def screen! I have been quite happy with the series and am glad to see GT's future is remaining solidly in Yamauchi's hands.

 

[TheCracker]

AlfaAlfa - aka Kaz Yamauchi?

 

[Gabkicks]

for those who dont get C&D

 

[maduhbee]

There's far, far too much being read into this puff piece from Car and Driver. It's not even a gaming mag. Who knows how old it is or how the interview took place. Give PD some credit as developers. The game's not even been shown publicly yet. And I think some people should read the thread before posting. There's plenty of good arguements why full vehicle damage may not be in the game (and this is FULL damage, not the cosmetic type in Forza 2 where hitting a wall at 200mph crumples the bodywork).
I think people should stop jumping to conclusions here. Personally I don't need bodywork damage in GT5 though it's still my understanding the race cars will show full damage. But I am hoping you'll have damage to wheels, suspension, brakes, electronics etc which is enough to punish people from driving like idiots.
Anyway, I'll be using the dashboard view when racing. I won't even see the cars body!

Forza 2 has more than cosmetic damage. You hit a wall at 200mph, your engine goes to crap, your car is not aligned, and depending where he hit you and your engine location, he might induce some damage to his car as well... They had this in forza 1, and it was a blast to play with some friends when you do a head-on collision with a ferrari to an EVO! (your engine is fine, but his engine is shot) Though you both have serious damage to your wheels/tires/suspension. I don't have Forza 2, but i hear it's even more detailed when it comes to damage.

 

[Wolfe]

Thanks for the scan, Gabkicks. I get Car and Driver but for some reason my issue hasn't arrived yet.

Also, I completely agree with TheCracker and Duke again. 👍

 

[Gabkicks]

i just got it this morning. i think someone gave out free car and driver yearly subscriptions a few months ago... either that or they are sending me magazines by accident under my name, and i'm gonna get a bill soon lol. we need damage in gt5 to deter dirty driving. some nice suspension damage at least as well as some engine damage. it doesnt have to be visually represented perfectly. i'd like it to be, but whats more important are realistic consequences for unintelligent racecraft.

 

[AlfaAlfa]

AlfaAlfa - aka Kaz Yamauchi?

If I was I wouldn't need to worry about affording a PS3 and a hi def screen

 

[ALPHA]

I read the article earlier today and I have to say that I was disappointed by the lack of information in it...That was some lazy reporting

Indeed, it’s a flat out filler article—the amount of fluff content is astonishing.

Car & Driver
If Andrew Wyeth is America’s foremost realism painter, imagine a machine that can paint, entirely from scratch, 60 Anew Wyeths per second, which incidentally, is twice the frame refresh rate of a standard, non–high definition television.​

Awesome, guys.

No mention what so ever about Ferrari's inclusion, Indianapolis or any of the stuff that Joypad broke.

I have a feeling that this article was written quite a while ago, it regards Sony as still selling both the 20 and 60GB models when the former was officially discontinued in the American market back in April. On the contrast, the French PR exercise (M6 Turbo TV feature and JOYPAD article) was very recent and included some exclusive titbits. Damage ‘probable’ for race cars and the confirmation of a cockpit view, none of that is here, and as afc2112 stated the article has been written for a very broad market.

Also note C&D’s lack of PR respect—PS3’s written as PLAYSTATION3 and not the classic PlayStation. Considering the branding and materials that would’ve been supplied, writing PlayStation3 is pure ignorance. Personally I’d take this and the C&V article with a grain of salt.

CVG
The release of the highly-anticipated Gran Turismo 5 on PS3 could be pushed back as far as late 2008.​

What the hell? GT5 hasn’t even been officially announced. How can an unconfirmed release date get pushed back—we’re still being drip fed GTHD info…

Im sure the time and questions here at these big events are limited and strictly vetted.

The guy who wrote the JOYPAD article mentioned that it was a surprise how liberal their tour was compared to experiences shared by other journalists where they were specifically told what to write.

Remember PD were also criticised over the lack of anything but new visuals for GTHD as well as the micro transactions, when it was pulled! That was PDs 2 years of work down the toilet.

9 months? PD made the GTHD e3 2006 Prototype (GTHD Classic) in 3 weeks.

The way it is programmed now is just sloppy and shows total disregard for the gameplay aspect of GT4. This is why I say Yamauchi-san is full of crap when he touts the alleged "perfection" as a justification for delays. And that's without even touching the subjects of the horrible AI or the lack of online play or the wonky handling physics.

This is one of my main frustrations with GT, though there’ve been the additions of B–spec and photomode to GT4, the series’ core formula is getting tired.

With each new iteration it’s the same deal, achieve licenses > buy a cheap car > head to the Sunday Cup—rinse, wash, and repeat. Nothing has changed over the years and at times this is incredibly frustrating. The amount of cups reflects the epic amount of content in GT4, but at the same time half of the races are just as much of a novelty (nuisance) as the cars, Midget Cup anyone?

I’m happy to drive slow cars (2CV LAN racing around the ring), but until the AI is engaging enough to have a decent race with, I fear that unless you’ve got an online or LAN mode the ‘simulation’ experience is completely lost. I’ve all but stopped playing GT4 against the PS2, photomode and LAN racing for me thanks.

I’m under the impression that this is where Yamauchi is taking the series. Instead of buying a complete package, users can create their own Gran Turismo featuring the cars, tracks and features that they want. This means lots of microtransactions.

High fives all round!

Considering that come December 23rd it will mark GT’s 10th anniversary, I can almost certainly guarantee some form of Prologue title. It will also match the previous December/January Japanese releases of GT, GT2, GTC, GT4P, and GT4. I doubt we’ll see anything at e3, instead either something at the Tokyo Motor and/or Game Shows.

Thanks for the scans Gabkicks 👍