CAR Magazine: GT4 vs Nurnburgring

  • Thread starter JasBird
  • 65 comments
  • 5,947 views
ahh, yes, top gear, we have that here in the states. Jeremy, james and richard, a fine group of people dedicated to all things automotive. the stig as most people outside of this realm call him, is excellent at testing and has tested fine cars like the slr and the f60. they also show many tests at the nurburgring.
 
A coupleof other things that help our lap times in GT4 are the HUD information.

By simply turning off the course map and setting the display type to 'simple' it makes a difference.

The difference the loss of the map make is obvious, but by setting the display to simple you also lose the suggested gear/brake indicator. Now while a lot of people do not use the indicator to start braking or even use the gear it suggests, we do all notice it appear and on the 'ring its a warning of a corner and its nature.

Turn these two off, take out a Yellowbird on N1's and see what its like.

Regards

Scaff
 
Dave_George
My experience of the RUf on N1s (i ran it to compare to the Stefan video also as i was intrigued how the GT4 car understeered so much) is that after some chassis adjustment to get oversteer my lap was about a 7.41 !
Which RUF are you using?If your tuning the suspension then you've gone out of the showroom stock just as you'd get the car in real life format to keep on a par performance level with Stefans CTR.
 
SavageEvil
Some of you don't realize this is still a game, major selling point is fun. No matter how close they want to bring it to real life, it's no fun when you smash up and have to restart.

For you maybe. But I want a game that is that realistic, they have been on the PC for years....

until we get tv that can support full panoramic view, sense of speed in this game will still be off. Sense of speed and the fear or losing control is what keeps individuals from going balls to the walls, GT4's sense of speed is hit or miss while going at extreme speeds it feels very good, lower speeds below 150 seem out of wack. Perspective is what is missing, since our peripheral view is what helps with realizing sense of speed, but normal tv screens don't offer such views...so they rely on higher framerates and faster animation to convey high sense of speed. Hope they get the sense of speed squared away in the next installment, along with parts damage, engine overheating, gears, realistic tire damage.

Yeah thats true. I wish I have 3 TV's, 3 Xbox' and 3 copys of Forza to try their panoromic setup F355 Challenge style...
 
SavageEvil
Some of you don't realize this is still a game, major selling point is fun. No matter how close they want to bring it to real life, it's no fun when you smash up and have to restart.

For you maybe. But I want a game that is that realistic, they have been on the PC for years....

SavageEvil
until we get tv that can support full panoramic view, sense of speed in this game will still be off. Sense of speed and the fear or losing control is what keeps individuals from going balls to the walls, GT4's sense of speed is hit or miss while going at extreme speeds it feels very good, lower speeds below 150 seem out of wack. Perspective is what is missing, since our peripheral view is what helps with realizing sense of speed, but normal tv screens don't offer such views...so they rely on higher framerates and faster animation to convey high sense of speed. Hope they get the sense of speed squared away in the next installment, along with parts damage, engine overheating, gears, realistic tire damage.

Yeah thats true. I wish I have 3 TV's, 3 Xbox' and 3 copys of Forza to try their panoromic setup F355 Challenge style...
 
Also wanna add, that the magazine had a talk with Kazunori Yamauchi at Goodwood included with the article, so I hopefully they talked to him about which tires are most realistic since they talk about real laptimes at the Ring.

In the articel the author says his PS2 lap is done: "on normal road tyres (the most realistic)" But doesn't say what kind of N tyre :nervous:

- Bullitt73
 
FooAtari
For you maybe. But I want a game that is that realistic, they have been on the PC for years....



Yeah thats true. I wish I have 3 TV's, 3 Xbox' and 3 copys of Forza to try their panoromic setup F355 Challenge style...


GT4 has that same thing as well, but im not going to get 3 PS2's and 3 copies of this game just to do that. Im not that crazy about anything yet.

Thing about PC games opposed to console games, console games have a much shorter life their games will be out dated in 5 years, while PC games will still be playable 10 down the road on the newest of the new PC's. Besides consoles don't have as much power overall to compete with a PC, until the next gen that is.
 
Bullitt73
Also wanna add, that the magazine had a talk with Kazunori Yamauchi at Goodwood included with the article, so I hopefully they talked to him about which tires are most realistic since they talk about real laptimes at the Ring.

In the articel the author says his PS2 lap is done: "on normal road tyres (the most realistic)" But doesn't say what kind of N tyre :nervous:

- Bullitt73

economy tires - everyday car has these equipped(volvos, hyundai, etc.)
comfort tires- higher performance tires(Corvette, mustangs, GTO's, skylines, etc.)
road tires - these have got to be street legal race quality tires(S7, Vipers, GT, etc.)

I used the comfort and road tires the most, economy is hard to maintain control, unless you have the DFP.
 
I just saw the KW Suspension site and they have on there that the record for fastest lap has been reset with a 996/911 GT2 "street car" somewhere over 600hp.

The current record is 7.15:52

Compared to the laptimes listed for some production based cars in the game on the laptimes page, the game compares very well, if favorably.

I also think too many people discount current tire technology -

The Falken Azenia is one of the stickest street tires you can buy, dirt cheap and have a wear rating over 200 as mandated by the SCCA for use in Street Class for Solo 1 and Solo 2.

That tire offers loads of grip over a OEM production tire and I don't think its even close when you have to consider 90% of the cars bought see all kinds of weather conditions which doesn't allow them to offer a max effort/performance street tire on their top level performance cars.

Also without driving every car on the planet, how could you know what is and what isn't capable of good lap times around the ring?

I actually think post like this boarder on being just plain silly.

If you want realisim get your arse out there and drive. If you live inside the US, the chances of you going out on the Ring with a fully modded, high performance car is SLIM and NONE.

So how could you know if your experience on the game is realistic or not?

I also buy into the fact that fear, angles and eleavation plays a factor when driving at high speed on a track such as this one.

With current tire and suspension technology, its possible to lap the place silly fast if you know the track like most of the hot lappers do and there was no traffic, so as somebody else posted there's at least 15-20 second laying out there and what about "Hey if I the car could be takening in 4th here and was safe what about taking it in 5th at the same spot?"

No one run is same as the next so its impossible to totally repeat even your best lap around there.

And if I had to start over the game after a serious crash and I had built up alot of things in the game, Im sure alot of people would put the game down.

Im tired of this constant debate between PC's and Consoles. I have enough power in both to play anything presently out there on the PC and I choose not too. I'm not in search of total realism, if you want total realism how about they start the game with $5,000 in which to buy a nomral street car with and modify it.

Some of you married souls wouldn't even get that much to play with if your wife has final say.

And then add all that BS Sim lovers b*tch about, that would turn a "fun" game into a horribly serious one and sales would go down the toliet. Name one PC Sim that has outsold the GT franshies?

I thought so because there isn't any and never will be...

So get off it already.
 
dj4monie
I just saw the KW Suspension site and they have on there that the record for fastest lap has been reset with a 996/911 GT2 "street car" somewhere over 600hp.

The current record is 7.15:52

Compared to the laptimes listed for some production based cars in the game on the laptimes page, the game compares very well, if favorably.

I also think too many people discount current tire technology -

The Falken Azenia is one of the stickest street tires you can buy, dirt cheap and have a wear rating over 200 as mandated by the SCCA for use in Street Class for Solo 1 and Solo 2.

That tire offers loads of grip over a OEM production tire and I don't think its even close when you have to consider 90% of the cars bought see all kinds of weather conditions which doesn't allow them to offer a max effort/performance street tire on their top level performance cars.

Also without driving every car on the planet, how could you know what is and what isn't capable of good lap times around the ring?

I actually think post like this boarder on being just plain silly.

If you want realisim get your arse out there and drive. If you live inside the US, the chances of you going out on the Ring with a fully modded, high performance car is SLIM and NONE.

So how could you know if your experience on the game is realistic or not?

I also buy into the fact that fear, angles and eleavation plays a factor when driving at high speed on a track such as this one.

With current tire and suspension technology, its possible to lap the place silly fast if you know the track like most of the hot lappers do and there was no traffic, so as somebody else posted there's at least 15-20 second laying out there and what about "Hey if I the car could be takening in 4th here and was safe what about taking it in 5th at the same spot?"

No one run is same as the next so its impossible to totally repeat even your best lap around there.

And if I had to start over the game after a serious crash and I had built up alot of things in the game, Im sure alot of people would put the game down.

Im tired of this constant debate between PC's and Consoles. I have enough power in both to play anything presently out there on the PC and I choose not too. I'm not in search of total realism, if you want total realism how about they start the game with $5,000 in which to buy a nomral street car with and modify it.

Some of you married souls wouldn't even get that much to play with if your wife has final say.

And then add all that BS Sim lovers b*tch about, that would turn a "fun" game into a horribly serious one and sales would go down the toliet. Name one PC Sim that has outsold the GT franshies?

I thought so because there isn't any and never will be...

So get off it already.

The sims!!! Sorry, I had too.....I agree though, realism can only go so far before it detracts from the fun. We are playing these games to enjoy ourselves right? Also, even though many people who play gt have a huge interest and knowledge of cars and a lust for realsim, some people just wanna play the game as a game and not compare it to real life.
 
dj4monie
I just saw the KW Suspension site and they have on there that the record for fastest lap has been reset with a 996/911 GT2 "street car" somewhere over 600hp.

The current record is 7.15:52

Compared to the laptimes listed for some production based cars in the game on the laptimes page, the game compares very well, if favorably.

I also think too many people discount current tire technology -

The Falken Azenia is one of the stickest street tires you can buy, dirt cheap and have a wear rating over 200 as mandated by the SCCA for use in Street Class for Solo 1 and Solo 2.

That tire offers loads of grip over a OEM production tire and I don't think its even close when you have to consider 90% of the cars bought see all kinds of weather conditions which doesn't allow them to offer a max effort/performance street tire on their top level performance cars.

Also without driving every car on the planet, how could you know what is and what isn't capable of good lap times around the ring?

I actually think post like this boarder on being just plain silly.

If you want realisim get your arse out there and drive. If you live inside the US, the chances of you going out on the Ring with a fully modded, high performance car is SLIM and NONE.

So how could you know if your experience on the game is realistic or not?

I also buy into the fact that fear, angles and eleavation plays a factor when driving at high speed on a track such as this one.

With current tire and suspension technology, its possible to lap the place silly fast if you know the track like most of the hot lappers do and there was no traffic, so as somebody else posted there's at least 15-20 second laying out there and what about "Hey if I the car could be takening in 4th here and was safe what about taking it in 5th at the same spot?"

No one run is same as the next so its impossible to totally repeat even your best lap around there.

And if I had to start over the game after a serious crash and I had built up alot of things in the game, Im sure alot of people would put the game down.

Im tired of this constant debate between PC's and Consoles. I have enough power in both to play anything presently out there on the PC and I choose not too. I'm not in search of total realism, if you want total realism how about they start the game with $5,000 in which to buy a nomral street car with and modify it.

Some of you married souls wouldn't even get that much to play with if your wife has final say.

And then add all that BS Sim lovers b*tch about, that would turn a "fun" game into a horribly serious one and sales would go down the toliet. Name one PC Sim that has outsold the GT franshies?

I thought so because there isn't any and never will be...

So get off it already.

So removing "The Real Driving Simulator" part of the title then. :)

I love the realism, and the more realistc the game the better as far as I'm concerened. I agree sales might suffer if it was to become more realistic. But for someone like me who loves motorsport and cant afford to do it in real life a racing sim is a close as I'm going to get, and I want it to be as close to real life as possible.
And anyway, you cant please everyone. Trying to appeal to as much people as possible and dividing games into neat little genres and even worse combine genres is why their are so many crap games out their, but im getting off topic here, thats for another thread.

Maybe GT isn't the game to do this, but alot of players, dare i say it, pride themselves on being good at GT because it is a simulator. Well it's a fact that compared to some sims on the PC GT doesnt come that close, but I would love an out and out sim on a console, becuase at the present time I cant really afford a cutting edge PC. And their are no games like GT on the PC in the respect of being a "general" simulator with so many cars. Most PC sims are of a specific racing type, such as GTR.

Alot of the more hardcore sim options that some players want such as realistic gravel physics and whatever could be options rather than compulsory so the gamer can taylor the game to his tastes. Theifore not alienating(sp) some players.

Even if GT doesnt become more realistic it needs to brake its own mould and start making some serious changes.

Better A.I. and Damage are a must in this day and age. I also feel that a game like this really shouldn.t have glaring omitions(sp?) such as wall riding and being able to drive across the grass like its part of the track.

It's just my opinion but a game like GT has to keep bettering itself, and I will not be prepared to fork out for GT5 its its just GT 2 - 4 with yet better graphics, were into another generation of more powerful hardware after all.
 
More realism doesn't necessarily mean less fun. For those who want quick kicks, there's an arcade mode. :lol:

And who's to say that GT4 isn't too hardcore already? With thousands of hours of playing time required to finish the game, and thousands more if you're not a particularly perfect driver, a lot of people are turned off by just the sheer amount of gameplay. I never got into GT1 or GT2 that much because they intimidated me... I only got into GT3 because by that time, I was constantly on the road, and interested as hell in cars. GT4 almost lost me because of the more realistic physics, the greater understeer... but I learned to see past that, and became immersed in it.

GT4 is already a "hardcore" sim by gaming standards. IMHO, it can go a little further in terms of accuracy and still reach its core audience, and appeal to the masses... How? Simple... in GT4, you don't really need to tune a Civic or an old Supra to beat a bunch of Le Mans cars in a race... you can just enter the race with a Le Mans car... utterly stock, untuned, and untouched, and win it.

If all you're after is the driving, there you go...

if you're a sim-b*tch, like me, you'll try to win the race with a tuned road car... if you're a masochistic perfectionist who loves misery (A-Spec Addict), you'll try to win it with a stock road car with a few cement bags worth of ballast in the trunk (you KNOW who you are guys... :lol: ).

I don't think such niceties as more realistic physics and modelling can take away from the gameplay... and frankly, even though I thought PD had gone over the edge with realism in GT4 when I first started, GT4 is apparently sellig like hotcakes...
 
It's just how it is. I have to agree with the Car mag guys on their observation about elevation and straights though. I took a bike round the Ring and i was amazed at just how many hills are on that course. GT4 just doesn't prepare you because the TV still doesn't offer that dimension you need and neither can it give you the adrenaline buzz.

There are other factors too, i went when it was hot, cooler air would have given more power. That said there is wind resistence to take account of, this isn't a factor in GT4

Apart from that the 'sim' isn't bad. The banked corners and graffiti are all there which is fab. Still felt like i got round in about 2 minutes though even if i was probably very slow! The straight is messed up to be fair, it's where the entrance/exit is for the private runner so it's blocked with cones about halfway down.

m.
 
fivetide
There are other factors too, i went when it was hot, cooler air would have given more power. That said there is wind resistence to take account of, this isn't a factor in GT4

hmm...I believe wind resistance is quite a factor in GT4. How do you explain drafting? Do you mean wind resistance as it varies between hot and cold days? That would be getting picky (but welcome by me in GT5)
 
doormeister
hmm...I believe wind resistance is quite a factor in GT4. How do you explain drafting? Do you mean wind resistance as it varies between hot and cold days? That would be getting picky (but welcome by me in GT5)

You can draft fair enough but as well as volume of air on cold days = more power you do get very changeable weather. I'm talking about stront side or crosswinds that could easily upset a delicate car or even once you pull out and stop drafting a monterous headwind.

lots of parts of the Ring are in shade too and it's so long it could easily be damp on just one corner while the rest of the track is dry. They've done a good job but it's never going to quite make it. I think the designers should be congratulated on getting the turns so accurate even if the experience can never live up to real life.

m.
 
fivetide, I think you've got it there. You can only simulate so much when going between real life and a sim/game. Having ridden at a couple of tracks in the UK and played them in games you never get the buzz or sense of danger.

You have to concentrate so hard IRL that when you stop you're mentally drained. Until a game can give you that it'll never match up. Your real life driver will be making tiny mistakes by the end of the lap/session/race/etc whereas your game driver is comparitively fresh, not having to concentrate as hard.
 
christofire
fivetide, I think you've got it there. You can only simulate so much when going between real life and a sim/game. Having ridden at a couple of tracks in the UK and played them in games you never get the buzz or sense of danger.

You have to concentrate so hard IRL that when you stop you're mentally drained. Until a game can give you that it'll never match up. Your real life driver will be making tiny mistakes by the end of the lap/session/race/etc whereas your game driver is comparitively fresh, not having to concentrate as hard.

I defintaly agree on the fear side of things. That doesnt mean their isnt room for improvement in the physics area though :)

But have you ever played Grand Prix Legends? Tell 30 laps in that game wasnt mentally draining...
 
FooAtari
I defintaly agree on the fear side of things. That doesnt mean their isnt room for improvement in the physics area though :)

But have you ever played Grand Prix Legends? Tell 30 laps in that game wasnt mentally draining...

Fragile Formula 1 car + damage + lack of instantaneous race restarts = you don't want to crash.
 
To put more fire :grumpy: on the debate I'll add some more info from the article :)

The author also took a ride with Dirk Schoysman. He says he's pleased to find his speed traces aren't far off Dirk in most corners, but not that Dirk is trying. The author said that he would take atleast 10 more seconds of the real laptime if Dirk was driving the car?

Anyways they also used a data logger called VBOX and he gives us some figures too.

Flugplatz: 123.2 mph in game, 111.3 mph real
Schwedenkruez: 124.9 mph in game, 92.4 mph real (a corner he struggles with all weekend :) )

He says the virtual car is between 10 and 30 % quicker through the corners.

Anyways my opinion is that the difference is about 1 min and 6 seconds. Let's take away the estimated 20 seconds for traffic. Give the game around 6 seconds +/- for accuracy and leave the 40 seconds left for the fear factor??

I really don't think we should underestimate the fear factor?

I also e-mailed the author to ask what he meant by road tyres? If you go to Arcade and select Luxury tire (N2), then go to quick tune, they call it Road? and the N3 sport?? So what is Road? N2 or N3?
 
dj4monie
I just saw the KW Suspension site and they have on there that the record for fastest lap has been reset with a 996/911 GT2 "street car" somewhere over 600hp.

The current record is 7.15:52

Compared to the laptimes listed for some production based cars in the game on the laptimes page, the game compares very well, if favorably.
EvilToast said on the first page of this thread that he could do a 7:20 with a stock 330i. I don't care what tires he used, a 330i coming within 5 seconds of a modified record-setting GT2 is just dumb.

I also think too many people discount current tire technology -

The Falken Azenia is one of the stickest street tires you can buy, dirt cheap and have a wear rating over 200 as mandated by the SCCA for use in Street Class for Solo 1 and Solo 2.

That tire offers loads of grip over a OEM production tire and I don't think its even close when you have to consider 90% of the cars bought see all kinds of weather conditions which doesn't allow them to offer a max effort/performance street tire on their top level performance cars.
What the hell kind of a point are you trying to make here? Do you think tuner cars and race cars that have set laps on the Nürburgring in real life don't use sticky tires, much less racing tires?? :rolleyes:

Also without driving every car on the planet, how could you know what is and what isn't capable of good lap times around the ring?
The 'Ring consists of lots of difficult turns going up and down hills on bumpy pavement. Therefore, any car that is good at taking turns, going up hills, and remaining relatively stable on bumpy pavement will be good at the 'Ring.
We can't test every car on the planet, so automotive journalists tell us how they drive. And they ought to be pretty good at it. It's their job. :rolleyes:

I actually think post like this boarder on being just plain silly.

If you want realisim get your arse out there and drive. If you live inside the US, the chances of you going out on the Ring with a fully modded, high performance car is SLIM and NONE.

So how could you know if your experience on the game is realistic or not?
I haven't driven a fully-modded, high performance car, but I have driven on the 'Ring in a rental 525i Touring, and I can beat my very slow time of 12 minutes with pretty much any car featured in GT4.

I also buy into the fact that fear, angles and eleavation plays a factor when driving at high speed on a track such as this one.

With current tire and suspension technology, its possible to lap the place silly fast if you know the track like most of the hot lappers do and there was no traffic, so as somebody else posted there's at least 15-20 second laying out there and what about "Hey if I the car could be takening in 4th here and was safe what about taking it in 5th at the same spot?"

No one run is same as the next so its impossible to totally repeat even your best lap around there.
Again, I don't know what the hell you're trying to say. You're discrediting the fear factor, which is one of the strongest arguments for GT4.

And if I had to start over the game after a serious crash and I had built up alot of things in the game, Im sure alot of people would put the game down.

Im tired of this constant debate between PC's and Consoles. I have enough power in both to play anything presently out there on the PC and I choose not too. I'm not in search of total realism, if you want total realism how about they start the game with $5,000 in which to buy a nomral street car with and modify it.

Some of you married souls wouldn't even get that much to play with if your wife has final say.
This isn't about PC vs Console, and it isn't about total realism. All I want out of Gran Turismo is realistic driving physics. That's it. Did PD give it to me? No, instead I have $50 worth of not-fun sitting on my shelf getting dusty as I play something better, like Enthusia...

And then add all that BS Sim lovers b*tch about, that would turn a "fun" game into a horribly serious one and sales would go down the toliet. Name one PC Sim that has outsold the GT franshies?

I thought so because there isn't any and never will be...

So get off it already.
Sales do not equal realism, fun, or good game design. If they did, we'd currently be chatting on "Need for Speed Underground Planet -- Unofficial Home for EA's Ultra-Realistic Driving Sim." :rolleyes:
 
3rdgenracerX
Which RUF are you using?If your tuning the suspension then you've gone out of the showroom stock just as you'd get the car in real life format to keep on a par performance level with Stefans CTR.

Im using the Yellowbird, and im sure you can tune the supension settings from factory, its a basic set up, could be wrong though, i was tuning it to make it handle more like real life as i had the benefit of two videos to watch how it drove.
 
There has been lots said here and when all said and done Gt is labelled the real driving simulator. Now that is why i love it so much, its currently the closest i can get, but why stop here, the closer you can get the better, i may never get chance to drive 99% of the cars in game in real life.

If there was an ultra simulation mode you could select then i would always go with it, yes we want to have fun, but surely we all bought it because of how realistic it is?? Now if i entered a corner on the ring and was going too quick, understeered off onto the grass and spun back round into a barrier i may be annoyed at having to start again, but hey next time round i would take it easier, and would learn more and get a more realistic lap time closer to real life, it would put the fear factor back!

The Nurburgring i think is amazing, will be going next year and from what ive seen so far Gt4 is very accurate, but the boundaries can always be pushed, always...i think a more hardcore "sim" option is needed, that way everyone is happy and you can set the realism to your taste. Just my opinion of course!
 
Wolfe2x7
What the hell kind of a point are you trying to make here? Do you think tuner cars and race cars that have set laps on the Nürburgring in real life don't use sticky tires, much less racing tires?? :rolleyes:

I agree with you there... last I looked, the tires on the "record-setting" Donkervoort looked barely street legal to me.

This isn't about PC vs Console, and it isn't about total realism. All I want out of Gran Turismo is realistic driving physics. That's it. Did PD give it to me? No, instead I have $50 worth of not-fun sitting on my shelf getting dusty as I play something better, like Enthusia...

Sales do not equal realism, fun, or good game design. If they did, we'd currently be chatting on "Need for Speed Underground Planet -- Unofficial Home for EA's Ultra-Realistic Driving Sim." :rolleyes:

Errh... you don't play GT anymore, why you here, Masta? :lol:

Actually, GT sells on realism. It may not be the most realistic, but it comes close, and it's accessible to a very wide audience, hence GTPlanet. NFSUPlanet would see people logging on one day, and forever gone the next, as that's how long it takes to conquer the game and get bored of it... :lol: ...they're not comparable, as NFSU doesn't sell based on "realism"... :dopey: ...I see what you're getting at, but.... no.
 
Found some interesing comments Porsche test driver Walter Rohrl said last year. He said that in a standard 911 he can do 8:40 easily, but below 8:30 every second counts quite hard. His record with the first GT3 (set in 1999 in a standard production car) was 7.56. He says in that car 8.01 was easy, but it was so hard to come under 8:00 :)
 
Dave_George
There has been lots said here and when all said and done Gt is labelled the real driving simulator. Now that is why i love it so much, its currently the closest i can get, but why stop here, the closer you can get the better, i may never get chance to drive 99% of the cars in game in real life.

If there was an ultra simulation mode you could select then i would always go with it, yes we want to have fun, but surely we all bought it because of how realistic it is?? Now if i entered a corner on the ring and was going too quick, understeered off onto the grass and spun back round into a barrier i may be annoyed at having to start again, but hey next time round i would take it easier, and would learn more and get a more realistic lap time closer to real life, it would put the fear factor back!

The Nurburgring i think is amazing, will be going next year and from what ive seen so far Gt4 is very accurate, but the boundaries can always be pushed, always...i think a more hardcore "sim" option is needed, that way everyone is happy and you can set the realism to your taste. Just my opinion of course!

Thats what I keep saying, I fully agree.

It is supposed to be the real driving simulator, well their is plenty of room for improvement in that department, and I am fully expecting GT5 to be a far different game than GT4 becuase it is running on more powerful hardware.
If its just GT4 with better graphics I wont buy it. It needs to have further refined physics, vastly improved A.I., damage and online play at the very least.

I will not fork out full price for a game that has a few tweaks and a graphical update when its running on much more powerful hardware. If GT5 doesnt push the boundries and therefore no one buys it (I would hope no one would, who likes getting ripped off after all?) PD will think again and get it right 6th time round.
 
Here's a comparison between GT4 and the real thing, as published last week in our local paper. I've cut & pasted the text as the articles on the paper's website don't last long.

-------------------------------------------

Ring of confidence
August 26, 2005

http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/ring-of-confidence/2005/08/25/1124563005923.html

MHring.jpg


BILL THOMAS switches from the safety of a video game to the perilous reality of lapping Germany's daunting Nurburgring at 200kmh.

It wasn't really a journey into the unknown, more a journey into the perfectly familiar. After playing Sony's new driving game, Gran Turismo 4, for longer than I'm prepared to admit, lapping the world's most treacherous circuit, the Nurburgring Nordschleife, with a Logitech Driving Force Pro steering wheel clamped to an ironing board placed in front of the television, it occurred to me that it might be fun to try the real track and see how fast I could go. I'd never been there before, so I'd be driving blind, with no previous knowledge - other than about 100 laps in the game.

If you've never heard of Gran Turismo 4, or the previous generation Gran Turismo games, all you need to know is that they are probably the best driving games ever created and the latest version pushes the PlayStation 2 platform to the limit.

It's an extraordinary piece of work - not the most sophisticated physics model ever created but challenging and difficult. The graphics are almost photo-real, there are 650 cars to drive - everything from a Honda Zot to an Audi R8 Le Mans car - and one of the 50 tracks is the Nurburgring, modelled to an accuracy of about five centimetres.

It's the central feature of the game and GT4 freaks around the world are honing their racing lines around it as you read this. It's quite a challenge. The Nordschleife, or Northern Loop, located near Koblenz in the Eiffel Mountains in north west Germany, is 21km long and has 73 corners, with a total elevation change of more than 300 metres. Nicknamed the Green Hell, it makes Mount Panorama look like a kiddies' go-kart track. It's where Niki Lauda had his terrifying accident in the 1976 German Grand Prix and it was dropped from the Formula One calendar the following year.

It is dangerous and freakishly difficult, a track where the driver can make a real difference: men such as Fangio, Moss, Nuvolari, Carraciola and Clark were legendary here. Today it is used for occasional races, including a couple of 24-hour events, then is booked for most of the year as a manufacturer test track. For the remaining time, it is open to the public.

Arrive on a public day in a road-legal, insured car, buy a ticket for 15 euros, punch it into the entrance barrier and you're away for a lap. No speed limits, no worries, except for the very obvious risk of falling off. There isn't anywhere else like it on earth and it's certain to continue for the foreseeable future, despite the fact that a number of motorcycle riders and car drivers lose their lives there every year.

The precise number of annual fatalities isn't known. Best estimates say four or five a year - that's people who die at the track, not at the nearby hospital after a helicopter ride. But the Ring brings in so much money to the local economy, it would be difficult to stop it.

The car for this adventure chose itself - the Nissan 350Z GT4. Called the 35th Anniversary Edition in Australia, it was launched in Europe in conjunction with the game. It has a bit more power than the standard car (up to 224kW from 205kW) and comes in exclusive metallic yellow. The car is available in GT4, of course, and I've taken it around the virtual Nurburgring 10 or 20 times to set a reasonable lap time.

If you're a game-head and want to compare your speed, you need to buy a 350Z Special Edition in Gran Turismo mode, then fit Normal Road tyres. These are the most realistic. Choose the Nurburgring in World Circuits, go for a free run and turn off all driver aids in settings. No tuning allowed and use the normal cockpit view, not the view from above and behind the car. Your pace should be very close to eight minutes, or slightly under for a lap. My best lap, error-strewn and a bit ragged, was a 7 minutes 57.605. Already, that seems too fast: an R33 Skyline GT-R just pipped the eight-minute mark in 1997, which was considered a phenomenal time. I have a sneaking suspicion I won't get anywhere near that.

Back to the real world and I'm charging through the gears in the Z, passing under the bridge before the kink on the long main straight. What a moment. The rain is heaving down and it's turned the track into a black ice rink. The pit area and entrance to the Ring are half way along the straight - you can see the buildings in the game if you look to the right. Cones are placed across the track to prevent anyone flying through for a second lap. Do that and you're banned for good.

The track seems more compressed than in the game - narrower and tighter, like it's been squeezed in every dimension. As I fly toward the uphill sweepers at Hohenrain, though, everything is where it should be. Yes, I've been here before, even though I haven't. It's a bit like seeing a TV or movie star in the flesh for the first time: it lights up a seldom-used diode in your head and the real life versions of famous people often seem smaller or slightly different to how you imagine them. That diode is overclocking right now, as I go into the tight right and left where you start the time trial lap, then cross the virtual start-finish line near the white wall.

This is weird and fantastic. I know the line, and as I look through the corner, I can judge my speed and accelerate at the correct point. The red and white kerbs appear bloated and fat compared with the game, even though they're probably the same size and they frame corners that seem tighter and slower. And the straights seem shorter - there's a lot less time to relax and take in the Eiffel Mountain scenery.

The G-forces are unwelcome guests, too, in stark contrast to my calm 1g ironing board environment. Even in the wet, the car is throwing me around in every direction but the inputs to the steering wheel, throttle and brakes are very similar to what I'm used to in the game.

Soon I'm through the first twisty bit, called Hatzenbach, and approaching the hill at Flugplatz. This is much steeper than it looks in GT4, like the steepest hill you've ever driven up, but you do it at 160kmh in the dry. In the wet, as I watch the hill roll toward the car at 100kmh like a giant black wave, I back off. This track is getting serious.

But it's too slippery - the rest of the lap in the wet teaches me nothing, except that the car feels like it's driving on ice, and I'm constantly double-taking on corners. Yes, I've been through this one before but no, I haven't, not for real. So I need to confirm that the real track is the same as the one burned into my head before committing. Invariably it is.

The next day is sunny and in the dry the Nurburgring is transformed. This is a seriously fast circuit and what crystallises your thinking more than anything are the tall barriers standing only a few metres from the track. There is very little run-off anywhere - if you get two metres of grass you're lucky. It's like you're driving in an enclosed metal tube, a tunnel that's taking you where it wants. You can see the barriers in the game and they look imposing but make a mistake and you bounce off them unharmed. One mistake here and your weekend is over.

You soon learn that on a crowded day like this, it's impossible to set a clean lap time. The traffic gets in your way. Bikes are the most difficult to overtake because they're lightning fast on the straights and slow through corners. Then there's the variation in driving standards and vehicle speeds: some people are pottering around in minivans admiring the scenery, others are demonic Wring Wraiths with thousands of laps of experience, hammering Porsche GT2s at up to 280kmh. It's total madness.

The 350Z was in the upper strata of performance, giving BMW M3s and Porsche GT3s a hard time and beating most other cars. It's great, this Nissan: stable, sure-footed and fast.

My best timed lap was a 9min 01sec, held up by slow traffic but still reasonably quick. It would come down by at least 20 seconds given a clear run. But more interesting than the raw lap time is the sense of enormous speed you get through the more difficult sections, especially the five kilometre rollercoaster between the famous Karusell (the 270-degree left hairpin with the banking set into it) and the Mini Karusell (the other left corner with the banking further through the lap).

This is the section you tend to learn last and it's the most technical and difficult. But the steering and throttle inputs in the real car are very similar to those in the game: the section from the hop at Brunchen through to the fast right hander before the Mini Karusell is called Pflanzgarten and it's absolutely flat-out, just as it is in the game. You keep your right foot planted in fourth and fifth gears and trust the car to hold on as you dive down into deep dips and fly over blind crests, touching 200kmh in places. And all the time, the barriers are right there next to the track, watching and waiting.

Did the game help my lap times? Absolutely. I took an experienced Ring Dude from Denmark out in the Z to get his opinion on my speed and he seemed mildly impressed. In his opinion, I'd saved between 20 and 30 laps of practice by learning the track on the game. At 15 euros a lap, that's a saving worth having.

But he was also worried about Gran Turismo 4. Worried that inexperienced drivers would turn up at the Ring thinking they know it all, then end up in the barrier. I saw it happen more than once over the weekend but if you have a degree of self-control, you can avoid getting into trouble - you soon learn to treat the track with the utmost respect, and you go quicker very gradually, building up to high speed rather than committing too early. The game teaches you the line - with incredible accuracy - but it doesn't teach you about the dreadful solidity and proximity of that double-height Armco.

When I erected my trusty ironing board again at home, after the greatest motoring weekend of my life, I reeled off five laps, consistent and quick, marvelling at how brilliantly the game captures the track's atmosphere. And do you know something?

I didn't crash once.


Getting there

If you're planning a driving trip around Europe, the Nurburgring is a must. It's an easy run if you're coming from London. Take the Eurotunnel from Folkestone to Calais and you'll be in Nurburg within five hours, across northern France, Belgium and Germany.

For more information about the track, how to get there and the public day schedule, visit Ben Lovejoy's excellent independent site at http://www.nurburgring.org


Ironing out the bends

Even taking traffic hold-ups into account, the Nissan 350Z on my ironing board is faster than the real one. Here's how some crucial sections compare, measured by satellite timing gear, with my fastest lap in the game:

The Karussell 71.5kmh virtual speed/66.6kmh real speed

Hatzenbach 154.4kmh/137.8kmh

Flugplatz 197.1kmh/ 178.1kmh

Vmax 244.2kmh/ 218.9kmh

Schwedenkreuz 200kmh/149.9kmh

Fuchsrohre 236.5kmh/202.0kmh

Metzgesfeld 156.0kmh/138.5kmh

Ex-Muhle 111.1kmh/ 88.8kmh

Angst Kurve 171.6kmh/138.9kmh

Pflanzgarten 227.5kmh/192kmh

-------------------------------------------
 
Brock5000
The next day is sunny and in the dry the Nurburgring is transformed. This is a seriously fast circuit and what crystallises your thinking more than anything are the tall barriers standing only a few metres from the track. There is very little run-off anywhere - if you get two metres of grass you're lucky. It's like you're driving in an enclosed metal tube, a tunnel that's taking you where it wants. You can see the barriers in the game and they look imposing but make a mistake and you bounce off them unharmed. One mistake here and your weekend is over.

Thats the big difference in racing games, no fear factor. You will go through a corner in a game on the the very ragged edge, just making it through by the skin or your teeth. You would need to have balls of steel to push that hard in real life. 1. You would be scared for your one life and 2. Scared for you car.

How ever I belive that a decent and realistic damage model would help this, you wouldn't push like a madman if you were half way through the race and a crash would seriously effect your cars performance or end your race.
Although that level of realism should only be an option for those that want to use it like me.

Very good article though, who is Bill Thomas?
 
Thanks Brock5000. This was the same guy that did the article in CAR Magazine, but more info in this one.

Damage model would definetly help you drive more careful too. Also if you had to pay a lot of credits to fix the car could help too?
 
Bullitt73
Thanks Brock5000. This was the same guy that did the article in CAR Magazine, but more info in this one.

Damage model would definetly help you drive more careful too. Also if you had to pay a lot of credits to fix the car could help too?

Paying a lot to repair is a good idea, but they have to be careful that the player wouldnt get stuck in a rut with no money and having to effectivly start again.
 
Back