Car Value & Crd System

[FrancisBenjamin]

any info on that yet???

I remember in previous GT games if you buy a car and go straight to your garage and look at the cars value it right away drops about %60... That is without a single mile on it, taking it out for a single race or without even getting in the car...

And some Reward cars should be worth more Crd, they are given to you to use, but if i have no use for it... i should be able to sell it for an OK amount of Crd to put into my car.

 

[Tornado]

They certainly do need to rebalance the credits system. Particularly for cars that have been modified and/or were bought used.

 

[happycorey]

Yeah, maybe 50% of value instead of 25% and cars with modifications should be worth a little more. But I don't think it will have changed much.

 

[Exorcet]

I'm hoping for optional credits to make things more fun.

But for the traditional credit system, car value should decrease with miles/usage for regular cars. The exceptions should be:

-Modification
Modified cars should have their tuned parts taken into account. Super modified cars should basically count as special models and be worth many times the value of the basic car.

-Legendary cars.
A car that wins LeMans is instantly priceless.

-Online trading
Forza did this right, would be nice to see. One needed addition is the ability to sell cars for free. Right now, I'm limited to selling my cars for 1,000 credits.

Finally, I think secret cars, if they return, should become buyable upon earning. And if we're forced to buy things, once the game is competed, their should be an option for greatly reduced prices, or an unreasonably huge sum of prize money. Something like 1,000,000,000,000 cr.

 

[Tornado]

-Legendary cars.
A car that wins LeMans is instantly priceless.

I like this idea. Do something like Juiced 2 did, where a car gains value as it wins races (with the more prestigious races being worth more to the value of the car).

 

[TuneR-]

Yes, i have been thinking this too. They really need to improve it. I hate it when you buy a 200sx for example around 20,000crd and then go put about 100,000crd worth of modifications in it, and when you want to sell it...... you get merely 6,000crd! Arrrggh.

 

[Heath_1]

That's always annoyed me about GT. You pay a fair bit of money for a car then instantly it's worth about 10,000Cr even if you payed about 90,000Cr for it or something like that. I was saying in another thread last year about this and how it needs to have a similar system to Juiced 2 where modifications increase the car's value. Also I think the Odometer reading should also determine it's value as it does in real life.

 

[Terronium-12]

That's always annoyed me about GT. You pay a fair bit of money for a car then instantly it's worth about 10,000Cr even if you payed about 90,000Cr for it or something like that. I was saying in another thread last year about this and how it needs to have a similar system to Juiced 2 where modifications increase the car's value. Also I think the Odometer reading should also determine it's value as it does in real life.

Wasn't that done in GT4 already?

 

[Tornado]

Wasn't that done in GT4 already?

It sorta was. But it still had the absurd "Car is immediately worth 1/4th what you bought it for" nonsense. Its just that after you drove it for a while the car's value dropped even more, and even that wasn't done particularly well (there was an obvious floor to how valueless a car would get).

 

[Heath_1]

It sorta was. But it still had the absurd "Car is immediately worth 1/4th what you bought it for" nonsense. Its just that after you drove it for a while the car's value dropped even more, and even that wasn't done particularly well (there was an obvious floor to how valueless a car would get).

lol I never even noticed that.

 

[Raybrig100]

In reality if you buy a brand new car, when you drive it off the forecourt, you lose 25% approx.

A while back a bought a 9 month old car, it was almost half the origional price!!

 

[Raitziger]

Super modified cars should basically count as special models and be worth many times the value of the basic car.

I would like modified cars to worth less than originals like it is in most cases in reality.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I would like modified cars to worth less than originals like it is in most cases in reality.

Properly modified vehicles are in many cases worth more than the original (show or track vehicles that is) so I don't see your point. Cars with basic bolt-ons would be possibly decreased in value without receipts for everything and proof that installation was perfect, but what we wind up with in the GT games goes far beyond that.

 

[DK]

I like this idea. Do something like Juiced 2 did, where a car gains value as it wins races (with the more prestigious races being worth more to the value of the car).

Yes, but this is the sort of guy who plays Juiced 2 instead of Gran Turismo. \/

 

[TuneR-]

Yes, but this is the sort of guy who plays Juiced 2 instead of Gran Turismo. \/

And all grand turismo drivers are like this, right?

 

[Tornado]

Yes, but this is the sort of guy who plays Juiced 2 instead of Gran Turismo. \/

So? Stereotypes aside, should the Gran Turismo series not have a good feature just because it was first used in a mediocre me-too street racing game?

 

[Terronium-12]

And all grand turismo drivers are like this, right?

Thread topic aside for one second, I'm pretty sure if Clarkson saw this picture he would call Schumi a 🤬

 

[Tornado]

In reality if you buy a brand new car, when you drive it off the forecourt, you lose 25% approx.

• 25% is much different from 75%
• The way the GT series has always been set up, you instantly lose that same 75% when you buy a used car. Which makes no sense.
• Depreciation varies. Some cars can be worth the same on the used market as they were when new, if not more. There is no blanketed depreciation percentage.

I would like modified cars to worth less than originals like it is in most cases in reality.

If I was converting road cars for entrance into a race series, and I did it properly with correct documentation (which is pretty much what the GT series has always allowed), I could charge considerably more money when I sell it than I originally bought it for. That is very different from dropping 5 grand into a body kit and a stereo.

 

[Ardius]

I'm going to take a guess here and say that the depreciation problem is not an error on PD's part, but a form of game balancing, albeit a slightly lazy approach has been taken but I think the drop in value is so high in order to deter people from just spending their credits on whatever, trying it then selling it again with little penalty. They want you to spend your credits wisely and spend more time playing the game, rather than throwing a million on a race car then deciding its not what you wanted, is it better to get 750,000 or 250,000?

This is where simulation ends and fun and longetivity come in. Not everything in the game has to be simulated to the smallest detail like real life, after all this isn't real life, its a game for fun and to be enjoyed over a long period. So certain considerations have to be made in the design process to either go fully realistic or not.

PD could perhaps be a bit more detailed with their system though, they could make cars increase in value according to rarity and history, but ultimately I think this is a little too complicated for very little gain in overall player experience. Rarity cannot increase without some kind of real time car industry simulation, which is way out of scope for the game But I guess they could have a group of cars that have a smaller depreciation because of their rarity (say, 50% instead of 75). History is too OTT in my opinion, it could be used as an interesting game mechanic - encouraging players to push their current car in harder events than normal - but I don't think many players need to be encouraged to do this (the credit system already does this to an extent) and those that don't bother normally still wouldn't.

Nice idea but I prefer the harsher system we currently get, it rewards careful research of each car and adds an extra element of difficulty to the game. It also helps encourage the decision process of going for an expensive car that uses all your credits or going for a cheaper car you can tune up with the remaining credits. Thats the whole fun of starting with the 10,000 cr, bring in normal depreciation and you break some of the penalty of choosing.

 

[thesuperfunk]

They want you to spend your credits wisely and spend more time playing the game, rather than throwing a million on a race car then deciding its not what you wanted, is it better to get 750,000 or 250,000?

This is where simulation ends and fun and longetivity come in.

That has always been the point in previous titles where the auto-save feature has instantly been turned 'OFF'

 

[Tornado]

They want you to spend your credits wisely and spend more time playing the game, rather than throwing a million on a race car then deciding its not what you wanted, is it better to get 750,000 or 250,000?

So they do so by implementing a system which unfairly punishes the player for making a very easy mistake that is the developer's fault in the first place, blankets across to cars where it makes absolutely no sense to happen, and is grossly unrealistic in addition.

Nice idea but I prefer the harsher system we currently get, it rewards careful research of each car and adds an extra element of difficulty to the game.

Careful research? The extent of information that the car purchase screen offers in most of the series is a bare-bones stats screen that isn't even correct most of the time.
How is it fair that the player is arbitrarily punished for not researching their purchases when the game gives them no tools to actually allow them to do so? If you want to keep the absurdly high and terribly unrealistic depreciation system, then the car purchase procedure needs to be changed (preferably to something along the lines of what is in Test Drive Unlimited) and the stats page needs to be overhauled (something like Enthusia's basic stats page would be a great model to build on). If you want the car purchase procedure to remain the same, then the depreciation values need to be reeled in. Preferably, though, all of those things would happen.

Thats the whole fun of starting with the 10,000 cr, bring in normal depreciation and you break some of the penalty of choosing.

Lets say I'm playing GT4 for the first time. On Day 1 I buy the Skyline GTS-t Type M as my first car. It has pretty good stats, with the 3rd or 4th best PWR of the cars available used in Week 1, and it looks pretty quick. It also leaves me a bit of finacial wiggle room in my initial $10,000 budget. I take it to a race and find that it is very hard to drive for me. Nothing in the stats page mentions anything about its handling qualities, so it really isn't my fault that I chose a lemon because I had no way of knowing. And with GT4's draconian autosave (which, BTW, looks like it will be a permanent fixture for the future of the series), I'm completely stuck with the car unlike in past GT games where I could reload.
There are two options for me now: I can keep racing a car that I really cannot drive very well. Or I could sell it and try again, only to discover that I would get a little more than $2000 because for some reason I lost 75% of the car's value upon purchase even though depreciation simply does not work that way with used cars. So I'd have about $3500 to buy another used car and try again. I can buy a Honda Today G or maybe a Mitsubishi Minica Dangan ZZ. At this point, I figure I might as well quit and start over and hope, with absolutely no guarantees mind you, that the exact same thing doesn't happen again with another car.
At what point in this hypothetical yet incredibly common scenario does the fun start?

 

[abaxas]

People actually sell cars!

Why not just race more.

 

[Ardius]

Thats the reason we have licenses before starting the game, you use various cars and learn about the different qualities of drivetrains, power and get a feel for some of the cars.
But in any case, that scenario has never happened for me, the first races are not difficult so its quite easy to use pretty much any car and earn the credits. This allows you to save up and buy a car more suited to your tastes. If you pick the wrong car again, then you can earn some money still....this is what I'm referring to when I say the credits system already encourages the player to go racing in their current cars.

By the time you get to important races that are more difficult, you should have an idea on which cars you prefer. Not to mention the later races are forcing you to use specific cars anyway (FF, FR, MR, 4WD, Japanese, whatever). And there's the prize cars as well which you can sell or use.

 

[garybee]

If anything i'd like for it to get even harder to scrape money together. I found the game much less fun later on when I could essentially buy whatever I wanted as there was so much cah available.

 

[Tornado]

Thats the reason we have licenses before starting the game, you use various cars and learn about the different qualities of drivetrains, power and get a feel for some of the cars.

You are sidestepping the problem. The fact of the matter is, the GT games have always had races where a licence isn't required in order to wet your feet with the game, so the above statement is inconsistent with how the games are actually presented.

And even if I did get my B licence or whatever, how does that prepare me for the handling characteristics of this specific car:

(Hint: It doesn't)

You are essentially saying that the system in place is okay because the game allows you the privilege to drudge through the licence tests for an hour to get the hang of how to drive the early cars in the game. Not only is that insane, but it completely ignores the two causes of the problem and places the blame on the player when it isn't the player's fault. And on top of all that, it doesn't even prepare you for any specific car, so you could still end up with a junk box and have to start over or tough it out for a few races driving a car that you don't like because you can't do anything else.

But in any case, that scenario has never happened for me, the first races are not difficult so its quite easy to use pretty much any car and earn the credits.

"Never happened to me" ≠ "not a problem." It didn't happen to me either, but I'm not going to pretend that the system in place is fine because of it.
On top of that, in GT4, it applied equally to cars that you could buy and not race but were given warning to that effect. I know I spent about 70,000 credits on the Caterham after buying it only to then learn after I had tuned it that it couldn't be raced. I did much the same thing on the Prowler later.
Quite frankly, the system in place now is awful. It always has been, but with autosave mandatory it makes the problem unavoidable and punishes the player more than ever before.

This allows you to save up and buy a car more suited to your tastes. If you pick the wrong car again, then you can earn some money still....this is what I'm referring to when I say the credits system already encourages the player to go racing in their current cars.

It doesn't encourage. It putatively penalizes the player for doing something that is the fault of the developer in the first place.
If I'm having trouble driving a car because I didn't know while buying it that it handles like crap, where is the fun in being forced to drive it to get more money to buy something that drives better? How is it my fault that the idiotic depreciation system won't let me buy another one, I cannot try cars before I buy them to see if I like them and the information screen for the cars when purchased is barebones and completely unhelpful?

 

[Ardius]

If I remember correctly, there are only a couple of races at the start of the game which don't require a license to compete or a specific car, the Sunday Cup and the Clubman Cup (I think). Both of these are very easy and can earn you a small amount of credits and I don't think its possible to buy a horrible car at the start (not so bad you can't win or at least obtain money, remember credits go down to 5th place).
The license tests are there to train you how to drive in the game, they introduce the different drivetrains, different conditions and different corners to get your head around how best to drive. They always use a variety of cars to do this and you will naturally learn those cars.
You do learn what cars are undrivable initially to you along the way (usually stuff like Dodge Vipers, etc) and many of these cars are not available to you till later on, the assumption being you will improve by the time you can access them and will have learnt not to buy them. I can't think of any specific example where the car is undrivable and its not obvious, if it has a large amount of horsepower and lightweight, its pretty obvious its not going to be easy to drive (and I'm not aware of any cars having massively incorrect stats, not to the point of giving a completely different charateristic, but perhaps you can point those out - although these would be programming errors, not intentional designs).

Oh, and yes, the license tests do give you an idea how a Skyline would handle. There is always tests with a variety of drivetrains and values of cars, so a cheap FR (or AWD) car with moderate power and typical handling is normally introduced. In other words, I would say a new player could do those license tests and purchase that car and safely win some races as long as they had the patience to do so. Sure, specific cars have specific little things on them that make them easier or more difficult to drive than normal, but I personally feel you should be forced to deal with those difficulties and drive around them or tune them out. Not just sell the car and get a different one easily.

I only use the "in my experience" line because I can only speak of my own experience, I'm sorry I am not a psychic and its not my position to comment on other people's experiences without proof. But I've yet to see someone complain the start is too hard and they can't win the Sunday Cup races, I'm sure there are people out there that may have this problem but I don't think its too difficult. Sorry you don't like my opinion.

I agree on the Caterham and the Prowler, they should have warnings (I thought they did?) but as they aren't drivable, you are also side-stepping my points - I'm saying most cars are quite clear in their driving charateristics and at the start of the game its irrelevant. These cars are seperate issues that I agree should have more information telling the player they are effectively useless, no need to change their sell value though, for the same reasons I said before.

We've also not touched on the fact there has always been a seperate arcade mode for you to try out a variety of cars and tracks and practice. Not all cars are available, but the main types (rally, race, AWD, whatever) have all been available. So there is no excuse for not at least researching different speeds and types of cars. One could argue you shouldn't need to do this, and I would agree to an extent, but really I think the license tests do a good enough job.

And yes, it punishes, thats what I was saying, do you think it more fun to have no difficulty at all? This is where my opinion and yours are not the same it appears - would you prefer a game where all the cars are free to use and you just race without penalty to car choice or a game thats structured to be more difficult regarding car choice?
I personally find it more rewarding to be forced to be careful with my car choices and punished when I've chosen a bad car and I have to drive around its issues. So hence I prefer the current system.

 

[Exorcet]

would you prefer a game where all the cars are free to use and you just race

Personally, yes, but that's a different topic.

I personally find it more rewarding to be forced to be careful with my car choices and punished when I've chosen a bad car and I have to drive around its issues. So hence I prefer the current system.

He's saying that the section in bold can't happen. Your car choice is essentially luck, not a mistake on your part. You can't really choose when you have no information to make a decision. There are license tests, but they don't really help you choose between Car A and Car B for race X. If you could try those cars before buying, then you could make a choice. You do have a point with car testing in arcade mode, though PD should still add a test drive option in GT mode.

 

[Lain]

You are sidestepping the problem. The fact of the matter is, the GT games have always had races where a licence isn't required in order to wet your feet with the game, so the above statement is inconsistent with how the games are actually presented.

And even if I did get my B licence or whatever, how does that prepare me for the handling characteristics of this specific car:

(Hint: It doesn't)

You are essentially saying that the system in place is okay because the game allows you the privilege to drudge through the licence tests for an hour to get the hang of how to drive the early cars in the game. Not only is that insane, but it completely ignores the two causes of the problem and places the blame on the player when it isn't the player's fault. And on top of all that, it doesn't even prepare you for any specific car, so you could still end up with a junk box and have to start over or tough it out for a few races driving a car that you don't like because you can't do anything else.


"Never happened to me" ≠ "not a problem." It didn't happen to me either, but I'm not going to pretend that the system in place is fine because of it.
On top of that, in GT4, it applied equally to cars that you could buy and not race but were given warning to that effect. I know I spent about 70,000 credits on the Caterham after buying it only to then learn after I had tuned it that it couldn't be raced. I did much the same thing on the Prowler later.
Quite frankly, the system in place now is awful. It always has been, but with autosave mandatory it makes the problem unavoidable and punishes the player more than ever before.


It doesn't encourage. It putatively penalizes the player for doing something that is the fault of the developer in the first place.
If I'm having trouble driving a car because I didn't know while buying it that it handles like crap, where is the fun in being forced to drive it to get more money to buy something that drives better? How is it my fault that the idiotic depreciation system won't let me buy another one, I cannot try cars before I buy them to see if I like them and the information screen for the cars when purchased is barebones and completely unhelpful?

Well, I don't think the problem here is the car value system. All this could be solved with a simple "test drive" option.

And regarding the cars in GT4 that couldn't be raced, I doubt there will be any such limitations in GT5, since those vehicles were unusable in races for technical reasons. The PS3 can handle a bunch of complex vehicle models.

 

[garybee]

Well, I don't think the problem here is the car value system. All this could be solved with a simple "test drive" option.
And regarding the cars in GT4 that couldn't be raced, I doubt there will be any such limitations in GT5, since those vehicles were unusable in races for technical reasons. The PS3 can handle a bunch of complex vehicle models.

That would be a good idea. Nobody would have any reason to complain about cars being undriveable then...they still would of course.

 

[Ardius]

Personally, yes, but that's a different topic.



He's saying that the section in bold can't happen. Your car choice is essentially luck, not a mistake on your part. You can't really choose when you have no information to make a decision. There are license tests, but they don't really help you choose between Car A and Car B for race X. If you could try those cars before buying, then you could make a choice. You do have a point with car testing in arcade mode, though PD should still add a test drive option in GT mode.

Ahhh, I see now. Thank you for that. Then yes I agree it should allow you to test drive them in a limited capacity.
But I don't think it should take away the penalty of making a bad choice, while it is a choice that is, rather than luck.

But really, I can't think of many cars that have such a huge problem or defficiency that can't be tuned or driven around. If you buy a monster like a TVR or Viper then you must surely expect it to handle like one, but I guess not everyone knows their cars, so its a fair point.
Its not like there are some cars so uncontrollable that its impossible to win and they are a complete waste of money (other than the non-raceable cars). A couple of the high performance cars are perhaps a bit more challenging shall we say than normal, but it kind of comes with the territory and by that time you should be able to rake the money in to cover such a mistake (or bad luck).

I still think its intentional game design by PD for the return of credits to be so low, to discourage constant selling of cars and to increase the value of the credits. I wouldn't be too disappointed if they changed it though, I just feel it would make it all too easy for some just to pick whatever cars they want (although people did that already through manual saving).