Champ Car breaks track record set by F1 car at Laguna Seca!

[VNAF Ace]

CHAMP CAR'S SEBASTIEN BOURDAIS BREAKS TRACK RECORD SET BY FORMULA 1 CAR AT MAZDA RACEWAY LAGUNA SECA

MONTEREY, Calif. (March 10, 2007) - The Champ Car World Series is known around the world as the American interpretation of Formula 1-style racing, but today a Champ Car driver in the brand-new Panoz DP01 chassis raised the bar on anything a F1 car had ever done at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca.

Three-time and defending Champ Car champion Sebastien Bourdais (#1 McDonald's Cosworth/Panoz/Bridgestone) demolished the existing track record at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca with 10 minutes left in today's final test session, with his time of 1:05.880 (122.295 mph) breaking the mark set in 2006 by Ricardo Zonta in the Toyota F1 machine when it came over to turn some laps as part of the Monterey Historics Festival.

Bourdais not only broke the record but became the first driver ever to run a lap around the fabled California layout in less than 66 seconds. For his efforts, Bourdais and his Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing squad were awarded $5,000 by Champ Car for breaking the F1 record.

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=11322

Toyota F1 spends $400 million just to get smoked by a team that spends only a few million dollars?

 

[fatman_5050]

For what it's worth, here's my assessment:

First off, and no disrespect to Zonta, Bourdais is a very good driver. Usually his name seems to come up a couple times in the off-season as a candidate for a seat somewhere. In short, Bourdais is probably the better driver given similar equipment.

Second, the Toyota set the record during the Monterrey Historical Races, if I remember correctly, whereas the new record was set during a CCWS test. Zonta's statements afterward seem to indicate that he could have gone faster (from formula1.com - http://www.formula1.com/news/4819.html):

"The older cars dropped oil in places on the track and I didn't want to challenge the car because I couldn't be certain where the oil was,” remarked Zonta. “I needed to assume there was a high possibility that oil was in many places. It was also more windy today than before and the blowing dust made the track slippery in places."​

and:

"We put slicks on after the installation lap, but the sun came out later today and the track didn't heat like it did the last several days," he added. "Unfortunately, the tyres couldn't work as well as possible."​

Third, and again no disrespect meant, Toyota was not exactly the fastest last year. I am not saying that another team would hae gone faster, I just think there would be less of a grey area here if it were the Renault or Ferrari setting the previous record.

In any event, this is not meant to take away from Bourdais' accomplishment. I enjoy watching the CCWS, and this seems to be a step toward making the cars faster and the racing more entertaining. So congrats to both Bourdais and the CCWS, it looks like they have a winner with the new Panoz chassis.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Yes, the circumstances back when Toyota was there, were awful so I'm not surprised a Champcar beats the record in a race with perfect circumstances.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Haha that is such fanboy news story it is incredible

 

[VNAF Ace]

Yes, the circumstances back when Toyota was there, were awful so I'm not surprised a Champcar beats the record in a race with perfect circumstances.

The Champ Car actually teams have very little setup data to work with since they're running a brand new chassis. They also didn't bring their softer Bridgestone tires (which have red sidewalls) to the test. Those tires have more grip. Expect that record to be broken next year as Champ Car teams accumulate setup data over the season.

 

[Blake]

Impressive lap time, but an F1 car could easily break that time with a real attempt. Toyota had no problem breaking the old record, and they were only there for publicity. If they had to do it again I’m sure they could without a problem.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

You can't really compare the time set by a makeweight driver in a middle-field team on a crowd-pleasing demo run with that set by the very best driver in the very best team in a full-on test session.

It is, as ExigeExcel says, a fanboy story. All you really need to say is:

Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Montreal.
F1: Pole-2006, Fernando Alonso: 1:14.942
ChampCar: Pole-2006, Sebastien Bourdais: 1:20.005

And don't forget that the F1 Pole time was set with fuel on board...

 

[VNAF Ace]

The 2007 Panoz-Cosworth Champ Car is faster than the 2006 Lola-Cosworth Champ Car. Unfortunately, there's no way to compare qualifying times at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve this year since Champ Car is no longer racing in Montreal.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

The 2007 Panoz-Cosworth Champ Car is faster than the 2006 Lola-Cosworth Champ Car. Unfortunately, there's no way to compare qualifying times at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve this year since Champ Car is no longer racing in Montreal.

Estimates put the Panoz at 1.5-2s per lap quicker than the Lola. Doesn't really help it with the 5s deficit to the Renault R26.

 

[Sureboss]

You can't really compare the time set by a makeweight driver in a middle-field team on a crowd-pleasing demo run with that set by the very best driver in the very best team in a full-on test session.

It is, as ExigeExcel says, a fanboy story. All you really need to say is:

Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Montreal.
F1: Pole-2006, Fernando Alonso: 1:14.942
ChampCar: Pole-2006, Sebastien Bourdais: 1:20.005

And don't forget that the F1 Pole time was set with fuel on board...

Is that 'Green' racing?

 

[VNAF Ace]

Estimates put the Panoz at 1.5-2s per lap quicker than the Lola. Doesn't really help it with the 5s deficit to the Renault R26.

Keyword: Estimates. The only way to be sure is to compare qualifying times when Champ Car goes to tracks that were on the schedule last year (such as Long Beach and Road America).

 

[Lee]

But still, that makes no difference if it's a 5 second gap.

Formula 1 > Champ Car at average speed around tracks.

 

[XGT Taipan]

Aren't champ cars designed to be a hybrid 'circuit and oval' car?

That being said, a champ car would hold no amount of 'low-speed downforce' close to an f1 car, and laguna seca is a medium/low speed track.

So realistically, if you put the best champ car and the worst f1 car of this current year with a driver who can drive both cars fast on the track at the same time, the f1 car should in theory beat the champ car by a few seconds at least.

 

[VNAF Ace]

Champ Cars are designed for oval/road/street racing. Teams would normally run smaller wings for oval races (to decrease drag) and larger wings for road courses (to increase downforce). Unfortunately, there are no ovals on this year schedule so we don't have any idea how the Panoz DP01 would look like with smaller wings. But I can show you the older Lola B02/00 looked in different wing configurations.

Michael Andretti's Lola B02/00 at the California Speedway.

A.J. Allmendinger's Lola B02/00 at Road America.

5 other major differences between a F1 car and a Champ Car.
1. Champ Cars are powered by turbocharged engines.
2. Champ Cars have sculpted undersides to create ground effect.
3. Champ Cars run on slick tires.
4. Traction control is forbidden in the Champ Car World Series.
5. Champ Cars run on methanol instead of gasoline.

 

[XGT Taipan]

Champ Cars are designed for oval/road/street racing. Teams would normally run smaller wings for oval races (to decrease drag) and larger wings for road courses (to increase downforce). Unfortunately, there are no ovals on this year schedule so we don't have any idea how the Panoz DP01 would look like with smaller wings. But I can show you the older Lola B02/00 looked in different wing configurations.

5 other major differences between a F1 car and a Champ Car.
1. Champ Cars are powered by turbocharged engines.
2. Champ Cars have sculpted undersides to create ground effect.
3. Champ Cars run on slick tires.
4. Traction control is forbidden in the Champ Car World Series.
5. Champ Cars run on methanol instead of gasoline.

Yes yes, I understand all that. But any monkey born underwater could tell you that aerodynamically an F1 is light years beyond even the latest Champcar in terms of design.

Just from looking at them, last seasons Champcars looked like early 90's model F1 cars with a lower engine cover.

So given the aero advantage, plus the awesome non-turbo acceleration around a circuit like Laguna Seca tells me that the only big advantage a Champcar should have is tyres. But with thin rollerblade wheels on the front, that theory goes out the window too.

So realistically the F1 car is quicker, so is Bordais Jnr... however, Zonta is not.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Isn't Laguna Seca known as a very bumpy track? Especially around the corkscrew? I recently read Zonta reported alot of scraping on the track from the bottom of the car when he went through serious fast corners. And as we all know or some, when the bottomplate of a race car hits the ground, there is no airflow, taking away all downforce. The theory that killed Ayrton Senna. Anyway, I guess this scraping might have reduced downforce and corner ability throughout the whole racetrack for Toyota...

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Champ Cars are designed for oval/road/street racing. Teams would normally run smaller wings for oval races (to decrease drag) and larger wings for road courses (to increase downforce). Unfortunately, there are no ovals on this year schedule so we don't have any idea how the Panoz DP01 would look like with smaller wings. But I can show you the older Lola B02/00 looked in different wing configurations.

Michael Andretti's Lola B02/00 at the California Speedway.

A.J. Allmendinger's Lola B02/00 at Road America.


5 other major differences between a F1 car and a Champ Car.
1. Champ Cars are powered by turbocharged engines.
2. Champ Cars have sculpted undersides to create ground effect.
3. Champ Cars run on slick tires.
4. Traction control is forbidden in the Champ Car World Series.
5. Champ Cars run on methanol instead of gasoline.

This is all really simple stuff, and appears to forget that an F1 car will have at the very least four different full aero kits for use at various tracks. The top teams will typically use at least 12 different front/rear wing pairings, and I'm not talking about wing angles here, I'm talking about actual construction.

If you take ovals out of the calendar, it does really remove the last excuse for the slower performance. For years, ChampCar fanboys have been claiming that ChampCar designs are "restricted" by the fact that the cars need to run on ovals, whilst simultaneously saying that ChampCars are "faster" because those very same ovals permit the higher speeds. Of course, anyone with a faint grip on reality understands that a fuelled F1 car being five seconds quicker around the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve in the same year as the ChampCar time is much more significant than a 20mph difference in top speeds (245mph @ Michigan Speedway for ChampCar vs 225mph @ Monza for F1). And that's before you consider that there are three chicanes at Monza.

Face it: F1 cars and ChampCars are different. They're run in different locations by different teams and drivers. Of course, people are interested in which is faster, but ultimately the car's performance is framed by its competitive arena.

The limited opportunities for a meaningful comparison all come from the four years for which ChampCar and F1 have actually run competitively at the same circuit within the same calendar year. During that four year period, the minimum pole time difference (where the ChampCar is running at its fastest, but the F1 car has +70Kg fuel) is five seconds. As I said previously, the Laguna report quoted in the original post lacks validity because of the non-competitive nature of the F1 time - irrespective of the derision I expressed earlier towards the F1 car and driver used to set the Laguna benchmark.

Isn't Laguna Seca known as a very bumpy track? Especially around the corkscrew? I recently read Zonta reported alot of scraping on the track from the bottom of the car when he went through serious fast corners. And as we all know or some, when the bottomplate of a race car hits the ground, there is no airflow, taking away all downforce. The theory that killed Ayrton Senna. Anyway, I guess this scraping might have reduced downforce and corner ability throughout the whole racetrack for Toyota...

The Corkscrew is too fast a gradient change for an F1 car to handle, so it will scrape there. Bumps on the rest of the circuit would be handled with an increase in ride height, which would also compromise the F1 car's aero platform.

 

[Danoff]

It's quite clear that this isn't really substantive. If the champ car run were on a regular F1 circuit and it broke the all time formula 1 record on the track, I'd be impressed.

The F1 lap time was impressive, but it really wasn't an honest attempt. It was done just to set the record and go home. More publicity than anything.

Now, that having been said. I think there are enough restrictions on F1 cars that they're quite beatable. Someday when formula 1 cars are restricted to 4 cylinder engines that burn wood chips, have no wings, and run on street legal tires (you know it's coming), champ car will be faster.

 

[bennyrrr]

I saw 2 big Newmaan/Haas trucks on the Highway near Stockton (Cali) on Saturday night, wonder if this car was in one of em!

 

[amp88]

Take a look at the top video here for a split screen comparison of Raikkonen's 2005 McLaren and Bourdais' 2005 (?) Champ Car around Montreal.

 

[m.piedgros]

[The following is partly sarcastic, partly exaggerated and partly a request we all take a chill pill.] Can I be the sane one and point out what all you people should have realised in the first place: teams with $400 million budgets should be light years ahead of teams with budgets just barely over $1 million. And you know what? They are! Great, Formula 1 is the most technologically advanced form of motorsport in the world! With all the technology the cars are able to make their way around a road course faster than anything I have ever seen. Racing is never done in absolute perfect conditions. All this means is that the new DP01 is a car that is infinitely better road course car than its predecessor Lola's (primarily) and Reynards, Swifts and Penske's though we haven't seen anything but Lola in years. The point is the 2006 Champ Car's were last produced in 2002 and the basic design hadn't changed since the early nineties. Formula 1 cars change as much as the Champ Cars did over 17 years in 1 year. It's different racing. Right now Champ Car are aiming for more privateer monetarily friendly road racing that will hopefully become more popular with fans world wide because of its friendlier atmosphere, downtown street circuit racing and altogether party atmosphere, does that mean Champ Car is all of a sudden the big bad bully? No. Formula 1 has been, and will be the pinnacle of motorsports for a while now, and a while yet. What I think VNAF was pointing out was it was comical that Toyota, who have the biggest budget in F1 can't blow a brand-new relatively untested Champ Car that is reported to be able to run for only 1.5 million dollars a year out of the water. If you can't get a small kick out of that then you are a Formula 1 fanboy and you should know when you point a finger three are pointing back at you. Take a chill pill, VNAF nor Champ Car are threatening Formula 1.

Long live sports car racing! ;-)

m.piedgros

 

[MustangSVT]

[The following is partly sarcastic, partly exaggerated and partly a request we all take a chill pill.] Can I be the sane one and point out what all you people should have realised in the first place: teams with $400 million budgets should be light years ahead of teams with budgets just barely over $1 million. And you know what? They are! Great, Formula 1 is the most technologically advanced form of motorsport in the world! With all the technology the cars are able to make their way around a road course faster than anything I have ever seen. Racing is never done in absolute perfect conditions. All this means is that the new DP01 is a car that is infinitely better road course car than its predecessor Lola's (primarily) and Reynards, Swifts and Penske's though we haven't seen anything but Lola in years. The point is the 2006 Champ Car's were last produced in 2002 and the basic design hadn't changed since the early nineties. Formula 1 cars change as much as the Champ Cars did over 17 years in 1 year. It's different racing. Right now Champ Car are aiming for more privateer monetarily friendly road racing that will hopefully become more popular with fans world wide because of its friendlier atmosphere, downtown street circuit racing and altogether party atmosphere, does that mean Champ Car is all of a sudden the big bad bully? No. Formula 1 has been, and will be the pinnacle of motorsports for a while now, and a while yet. What I think VNAF was pointing out was it was comical that Toyota, who have the biggest budget in F1 can't blow a brand-new relatively untested Champ Car that is reported to be able to run for only 1.5 million dollars a year out of the water. If you can't get a small kick out of that then you are a Formula 1 fanboy and you should know when you point a finger three are pointing back at you. Take a chill pill, VNAF nor Champ Car are threatening Formula 1.

Long live sports car racing! ;-)

m.piedgros

Now that you mention it, it's quite ironic that the F1 car in question was a Toyota.

 

[Omnis]

Very ironic...

The most expensive F1 car gets beaten by a cheapo champ car, lulz.

 

[Bram Turismo]

I don't get the irony of it to be honest, especially after all of the stupid limitations the F1 got in the past years.

 

[daan]

I don't get the irony of it to be honest,

Its about as ironic as a certain Alanis Morrisette song...

especially after all of the stupid limitations the F1 got in the past years.

The tyres are the main point there. Champ car tyres are wider and completely slick.

 

[Blake]

Its about as ironic as a certain Alanis Morrisette song...

 

[ExigeEvan]

What I think VNAF was pointing out was it was comical that Toyota, who have the biggest budget in F1 can't blow a brand-new relatively untested Champ Car that is reported to be able to run for only 1.5 million dollars a year out of the water.

I really don't think you can compare the budget of a team that must race design and develop a car with a team budget that probably pays more towards wages than anything else.

If you can't get a small kick out of that then you are a Formula 1 fanboy

Named, shamed and proud.

 

[Danny]

I would describe it as precipitation on your marital day.
Or, a ride gratis, when money has already changed hands.

 

[m.piedgros]

I really don't think you can compare the budget of a team that must race design and develop a car with a team budget that probably pays more towards wages than anything else.

I understand and agree with you to an extent. I just think this whole thing is stupid. Yeah, it was a Champ Car fanboy article? What would you expect on a Champ Car site. Robin Miller told the truth and got canned. Same thing would happen on an F1 site. Only the Champ Car's rear tires are larger as I understand it, but tires are a moot point. The technology in the tires used by Toyota were far more advanced than the Champ Car tire. The Champ Car tires are hunks of rubber compared to the F1 tires. Let's try to get the facts right and then criticize this article for what it is. Admittedly, I don't really like that this article was posted in the F1 forum as at best it is a debate starter and really to me looks like a Champ Car fan trying stir something up with the F1 fans. I think we all need to take a step back and chill out.

m.piedgros

 

[JohnBM01]

I've always thought Champ Cars were highly- capable race cars. Granted F1 cars are more glamourous and more capable than a Champ Car, Champ Cars are great race cars. I remembered that one-off time trial at Laguna Seca by Ricardo Zonta. That was the moment when I said that F1 should have raced at a track like Laguna Seca or someplace (do you want my FULL list?). When I read the news in this thread, I knew that Sebastien Bourdais is one hell of a driver. This 1:05 time around this track is pretty doggone fast. I don't know what past times with Champ Cars were like compared to this screaming lap time, but 65 or so seconds around this track in any car is pretty damn fast.

I'm just not ready to say that Champ Cars have officially trumped F1 cars. This is a wicked lap time.