China's new stealth fighter jet

[Rocket Punch]

China don't need a fighter jet, all they need to do is to stop selling REE to the world and stop making ipod and xbox and every single mobile phone sold on earth.

On second thought, they will probably need those when other countries invade them for REE.

Have fun.

Reference: http://geology.com/articles/rare-earth-elements/

 

[Exorcet]

My point based on superiority has a factor of how many aircraft China could field. Lets say the F22 or F35 will always win 1v1 , this doesn't matter in a numbers game. If you have 2 F22's against 4 J20's the odds are on the J20 to come out on top, or at least an equal defensive strategic position.

It depends on how good it is. This is China's first stealth, vs one of the US's latest that is built with experience going back decades. Two F-22's paired together have a few nasty methods of fighting, and like most planes today, you can shoot at multiple targets at once.

And considering China want it to use to protect its interests near it's shores it has most of it's fleet at hand when America would have what it can provide from carriers or from far away land bases which would restrict it's numbers. I think the fuel costs of patrolling/scrambling twice as many jets is not too much of a negative.

I doubt very much that any fighter will be as numerous as the F-35, which will be in the 1,000's from the US alone. 400-500 will be on carriers, and with refueling, it should be able to make it to China from land bases too.

Didn't know that first part. Always thought you'd want to shield your nozzles from ground observation, as the F-22 and YF-23 did by putting them above the bodywork. *Shrug*... guess I learned something new today.

The F-22's nozzles aren't really shielded from below, the engines are just burried deep in the airframe, and the flat nozzles are coated with materials to lower their temperature.

 

[ledhed]

Yes it shows they can make nice copy of a picture of a raptor but just forgot to add the actual " stealth part " as all those rivets etc. you see make it visable as a f 16

 

[blaaah]

America is officially concerned, they have announced plans to increase their capability to counter the Chinese. A new 5 year military budget plan and a brand new generation of super long range bomber craft will be made available. (They are worried about their aircraft carriers). Also funding for a new development of electronic jammers and radar in the region.

Extra titbit:
Japan reports 44 incidents in the last 9 months of having to scramble their jets to intercept Chinese air-force jets intruding into Japanese airspace.

 

[McLaren]

My point based on superiority has a factor of how many aircraft China could field. Lets say the F22 or F35 will always win 1v1 , this doesn't matter in a numbers game. If you have 2 F22's against 4 J20's the odds are on the J20 to come out on top, or at least an equal defensive strategic position. And considering China want it to use to protect its interests near it's shores it has most of it's fleet at hand when America would have what it can provide from carriers or from far away land bases which would restrict it's numbers. I think the fuel costs of patrolling/scrambling twice as many jets is not too much of a negative.

Very, very doubtful. It only takes 2 F-22s in Alaska to scare off the numerous foreign planes that come near US borders at times. I don't think any of these Chinese made "stealth" jets would hold such odds unless they absolutely just gang up on 1 jet at a time.

The USAF also has more than just F-22s at their disposal.

 

[niky]

Very, very doubtful. It only takes 2 F-22s in Alaska to scare off the numerous foreign planes that come near US borders at times. I don't think any of these Chinese made "stealth" jets would hold such odds unless they absolutely just gang up on 1 jet at a time.

The USAF also has more than just F-22s at their disposal.

Let's see... throw a dozen "non-stealthy" jets at an F22. With external weapons mounted... it shoots down four to eight assailants at long range, jettisoning the weapons pylons to avoid being spotted after launching the attack... then it shoots down the rest with internally stored missiles, even before line-of-sight is established... then it uses its guns to... wait... is there anyone left?

 

[blaaah]

A missile doesn't always hit it's target, it's even possible for all missiles to miss.

 

[Keef]

America is officially concerned, they have announced plans to increase their capability to counter the Chinese. A new 5 year military budget plan and a brand new generation of super long range bomber craft will be made available. (They are worried about their aircraft carriers). Also funding for a new development of electronic jammers and radar in the region.

Extra titbit:
Japan reports 44 incidents in the last 9 months of having to scramble their jets to intercept Chinese air-force jets intruding into Japanese airspace.

Link?

 

[blaaah]

Link?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/8248996/US-will-respond-to-Chinese-military-build-up.html

 

[marchi]

Hell, the F-22 is is over 20 years behind itself! The F-35 is by far and away more advanced than the Raptor so much so that the F-22 is nearly obsolete.

Mate what are you smoking? honestly? The F-15 isn't yet obsolete and its being replaced by the F-22!

But people need to understand that there is a big difference between the truth and what we're told. The F-22 numbers will not have been capped. They will be built as they're needed. You don't spend that much money and just piss it all down the drain after few years.

 

[blaaah]

You don't spend that much money and just piss it all down the drain after few years.

This is exactly what happens a lot of the time in military spending. At least it has been in the decades i have been following British military projects. You might even be lucky to have something for 2 years. I see millions spent on development/manufacturing projects that at some point the military will decide they don't need it or the government says it is too expensive to complete with the orders and it gets stopped, with nothing physical to show for all the millions spent. And even the stopping is not free after all that money is gone, millions can be paid for the fees for cancelling a project with the contractors who have a guaranteed income. Sometimes the cancellation fee is higher than the cost of just paying for the entire order of jets or ships whatever it is. But it will still get cancelled unless the government would like to or can find a buyer for them.

 

[ExigeEvan]

This jet isn't a big issue, and unless there is a major intelligence breach China won't be competing with the US for 20-30 years.

That's not arrogance, that's just the numbers. America has long had one of the largest budgets and has for decades there has been support for American Tech to be ahead of the rest of the world.

Take the F117 for example. A plane designed purely around it's stealth capability first flew 30 years ago. America has now progressed to the F22 which, except for some payload, sacrifices nothing for it's stealth capability. China have to produce a viable stealth airframe before they even begin producing a high-performance stealth aircraft.

Now this carrier-killing ballistic missile is more of an issue.

 

[Dotini]

Now this carrier-killing ballistic missile is more of an issue.

I believe it is a cruise missile. Hypersonic and wave hugging, it cannot be shot down by currently known bullets, rockets or anti-missile missiles. At the last instant before impact with the carrier, it pops-up and dives straight down onto the deck, such that it's weight and velocity drive the explosive warhead deep into the ship and through the bottom of the hull.

There are several models available, with various ranges and payloads. Some are being sold to Iran.

Respectfully submitted and eager for correction,
Dotini

 

[ExigeEvan]

I believe it is a cruise missile. Hypersonic and wave hugging, it cannot be shot down by currently known bullets, rockets or anti-missile missiles. At the last instant before impact with the carrier, it pops-up and dives straight down onto the deck, such that it's weight and velocity drive the explosive warhead deep into the ship and through the bottom of the hull.

There are several models available, with various ranges and payloads. Some are being sold to Iran.

Respectfully submitted and eager for correction,
Dotini

All the speculation I've read has specifically stated it's a ballistic missile so I'm not sure where you got the idea it's a cruise missile from.

 

[Dotini]

Here's some basic introductory on what the Chinese have going for them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silkworm_(missile)

Zero in on Surface to Surface>Cruise Missiles> Anti-Ship Supersonic

Here you will find, among others, this beauty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskit and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-N-27

...what is viewed as a growing threat in the particular case of China, because of Peking's newest Sovremenny-class destroyers recently acquired from Russia......otherwise very ordinary destroyers were, in fact, launching platforms for Russian-made 3M-82 Moskit anti-ship cruise missiles (NATO designation: SS-N-22 Sunburn), a weapon for which the US Navy currently has no defense.

Although the Russian navy continues to rust in port, and the Russian army is in disarray, in certain key areas Russian technology is actually superior to our own. And nowhere is this truer than in the vital area of anti-ship cruise missile technology, where the Russians hold at least a ten-year lead over the US.

Many years ago, Soviet planners gave up trying to match the US Navy ship for ship, gun for gun, and dollar for dollar. The Soviets simply could not compete with the high levels of US spending required to build up and maintain a huge naval armada. They shrewdly adopted an alternative approach based on strategic defense. They searched for weaknesses, and sought relatively inexpensive ways to exploit those weaknesses. The Soviets succeeded: by developing several supersonic anti-ship missiles, one of which, the SS-N-22 Sunburn, has been called "the most lethal missile in the world today."

After the collapse of the Soviet Union the old military establishment fell upon hard times. But in the late1990s Moscow awakened to the under-utilized potential of its missile technology to generate desperately needed foreign exchange. A decision was made to resuscitate selected programs, and, very soon, Russian missile technology became a hot export commodity. Today, Russian missiles are a growth industry generating much-needed cash for Russia, with many billions in combined sales to India, China, Viet Nam, Cuba, and also Iran. In the near future this dissemination of advanced technology is likely to present serious challenges to the US. Some have even warned that the US Navy's largest ships, the massive carriers, have now become floating death traps, and should for this reason be mothballed.

The Sunburn can deliver a 200-kiloton nuclear payload, or: a 750-pound conventional warhead, within a range of 100 miles, more than twice the range of the Exocet. The Sunburn combines a Mach 2.1 speed (two times the speed of sound) with a flight pattern that hugs the deck and includes "violent end maneuvers" to elude enemy defenses. The missile was specifically designed to defeat the US Aegis radar defense system. Should a US Navy Phalanx point defense somehow manage to detect an incoming Sunburn missile, the system has only seconds to calculate a fire solution not enough time to take out the intruding missile. The US Phalanx defense employs a six-barreled gun that fires 3,000 depleted-uranium rounds a minute, but the gun must have precise coordinates to destroy an intruder "just in time."

The Sunburn's combined supersonic speed and payload size produce tremendous kinetic energy on impact, with devastating consequences for ship and crew. A single one of these missiles can sink a large warship, yet costs considerably less than a fighter jet. Although the Navy has been phasing out the older Phalanx defense system, its replacement, known as the Rolling Action Missile (RAM) has never been tested against the weapon it seems destined to one day face in combat.
http://www.rense.com/general59/theSunburniransawesome.htm

Respectfully submitted, eager for correction,
Dotini

 

[ExigeEvan]

Yeah, you're a little behind the times. What you've linked are effective, but short range missiles that have existed for the best part of a decade.

What is supposedly being designed is a long-range ground-launched missile capable of being launched on mainland China and hitting a carrier in LA. It would be a hypersonic missile that could probably make an aircraft carrier inoperable with a kinetic energy warhead alone.

 

[Dotini]

Yeah, you're a little behind the times. What you've linked are effective, but short range missiles that have existed for the best part of a decade.

What is supposedly being designed is a long-range ground-launched missile capable of being launched on mainland China and hitting a carrier in LA. It would be a hypersonic missile that could probably make an aircraft carrier inoperable with a kinetic energy warhead alone.

What you and I are both saying, is that US Navy aircraft carriers are not currently defensible in Chinese littoral waters, within a 100mi range of a Chinese destroyer, airplane or submarine in the open ocean, and shortly they may no longer be safe in San Diego, Los Angeles or Bremerton.

Respectfully submitted, eager for correction
Dotini

 

[ExigeEvan]

What you and I are both saying, is that US Navy aircraft carriers are not currently defensible in Chinese littoral waters, within a 100mi range of a Chinese destroyer, airplane or submarine in the open ocean, and shortly they may no longer be safe in San Diego, Los Angeles or Bremerton.

Respectfully submitted, eager for correction
Dotini

Not entirely true. The current cruise missiles are little threat to a US carrier. Nothing deemed a threat will get within several hundred miles of a US carrier at sea to be able to launch such a weapon. Cruisers, destroyers and aircraft will all provide this defense. A perfect example is that of the British carriers in the Falklands against Argentinian missiles. Yes we lost several ships, but the carriers were not hit.

A ballistic missile forms a different threat that may possibly only be countered by an AEGIS cruiser or at last resort a CIW system. That's not to say a carrier could be sunk by these ballistic missiles, but it'll always have to be prepared to defend against one, and yes, even in San Diego, LA or Bremerton.

 

[Dotini]

Not entirely true. The current cruise missiles are little threat to a US carrier. Nothing deemed a threat will get within several hundred miles of a US carrier at sea to be able to launch such a weapon. Cruisers, destroyers and aircraft will all provide this defense. A perfect example is that of the British carriers in the Falklands against Argentinian missiles. Yes we lost several ships, but the carriers were not hit.

A ballistic missile forms a different threat that may possibly only be countered by an AEGIS cruiser or at last resort a CIW system. That's not to say a carrier could be sunk by these ballistic missiles, but it'll always have to be prepared to defend against one, and yes, even in San Diego, LA or Bremerton.

Apparently you did not read or believe that the Chinese MOSKIT/SUNBURN is specifically designed to defeat AEGIS and all other defensive systems. I guess I can forgive you for not believing what you read. Most of it is self-serving BS. However, I think only a little research will reveal that the US Navy takes these threats fairly seriously, so it may be slightly optimistic to dismiss them as "little threat". Only a few weeks ago an American carrier was operating in the Yellow Sea, within easy reach of these Chinese missiles, as part of a show of force against North Korea. Earlier in the year, the US Navy held a major exercise of the Pacific fleet, with several carriers involved. Lo and behold, a Chinese submarine surfaced right in the middle of the exercise, to the complete dismay of the Fleet Admirals. Aircraft carriers are major assets. We have only a few, each with 6000 souls aboard. I would hope that the decision to deploy them is carefully taken in each and every instance.

Respectfully submitted, eager for correction
Dotini

 

[ExigeEvan]

Apparently you did not read or believe that the Chinese MOSKIT/SUNBURN is specifically designed to defeat AEGIS and all other defensive systems. I guess I can forgive you for not believing what you read. Most of it is self-serving BS. However, I think only a little research will reveal that the US Navy takes these threats fairly seriously, so it may be slightly optimistic to dismiss them as "little threat". Only a few weeks ago an American carrier was operating in the Yellow Sea, within easy reach of these Chinese missiles, as part of a show of force against North Korea. Earlier in the year, the US Navy held a major exercise of the Pacific fleet, with several carriers involved. Lo and behold, a Chinese submarine surfaced right in the middle of the exercise, to the complete dismay of the Fleet Admirals. Aircraft carriers are major assets. We have only a few, each with 6000 souls aboard. I would hope that the decision to deploy them is carefully taken in each and every instance.

Respectfully submitted, eager for correction
Dotini

I'm sorry but if you're going to use an article titled "Iran's Awesome Nuclear Anti-ship missile" then I think you need to click out of this thread.

Furthermore, the author of that article goes on to talk-up the unproven Moskit while having little knowledge of the Phalanx defense system. Mach 2 missiles and milliseconds are exactly what Phalanx/Goalkeeper systems were designed for. And needing precise co-ordinates? They fire an almost literal wall of lead. They are anything but precise weaponry.

Yes, the American carriers were near to Chinese mainland. But we're not at war. You can talk about weaponry as much as you like, but if a friend walks up to you with a handgun and shoots you in the face it doesn't matter if you're wearing a kevlar vest and carrying an M16 with an Abraham tank behind you and an Apache above. America is wary of what China could become, but right now there's no harm.

Same to be said of this supposed submarine incident. The American carrier captain was probably not happy a submarine was so close, but he wasn't going to sink it without good reason. It's no different to the thousands of intrusions into British and American airspace by the Russians that are very well documented. You don't shoot and destroy anything that moves.

 

[Dotini]

The American carrier captain was probably not happy a submarine was so close, but he wasn't going to sink it without good reason.

The point here was not that the sub couldn't be sunk after it surfaced, but that it went undetected until it surfaced, insouciantly showing itself off like a naughty dolphin in the pool.

I apologize if anyone has found my comments to be in any way wrong, misleading or in poor taste. I have tried to document what I have said to the best of my poor ability in a short amount of time. My thought was to contribute something of value to an important conversation. However, I appear to have failed, at least in the case of ExigeEvan, so I will click out of this thread.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[blaaah]

The Telegraph reports that American "plane spotters" are suggesting the J20 stealth fighter could beat the F22 in a dogfight. Sounds like meaningless speculation though.
They also reported that the new Chinese anti-carrier missile might not even be able to hit a carrier due to poor guidances systems. More speculation but officially reported in the National Press.
Onto new news:
The J20 stealth fighter has now had it's maiden flight, a 15 minute air test over the central city of Chengdu, a very public demonstration and reported and photographed in the official Xinhua news agency.
The Telegraph says:
"According to an unnamed US defence official, the People's Liberation Army carried out the test flight without informing Hu Jintao, the Chinese president, the head of the China's Military Commission, or any of the country's civilian leaders."

Anyway a video:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/01/11/351702/video-chinas-j-20-completes-maiden-flight.html

Hopefully it will make quite a few posters on American military forum stop saying it's all a photoshop or at the very best a fake model. Lots of denial out there.

 

[ExigeEvan]

The point here was not that the sub couldn't be sunk after it surfaced, but that it went undetected until it surfaced, insouciantly showing itself off like a naughty dolphin in the pool.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

My point was that even if it was detected below the surface, which it likely was, the US navy weren't going to sink it. Just like they don't sink Russian military aircraft in western airspace. They can, to some degree of accuracy, tell the type of a submarine by it's acoustic signature.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...n-subs-stalk-Trident-in-echo-of-Cold-War.html

 

[ledhed]

Dotini --its called an armed race because for every advance made by one side counter measures have been built if the tec exist by the other ..no other military in the world has so much combat experiance as the USA --lessons learned will be reflected in all future weapon systems and defense capaibilities.

because no one is bragging about USA anti missle systems --and because when china announced they had a carrier killer, all you got from USA was a big yawn ..it is safe to consider if you can find an article on old russian crap we keep blowing up all over the world ---so can the military and use it to prepare defense --You may have noticed through almost 20 Years of wars Soviet --or any other countries , weapon systems have been turned into slag piles --so based on empirical evidence I would give the USA a benifit of doubt in respect to counter measures.---that AND THE FACT THEY HAVE CARRIERS DOING DONUTS OFF OF NORTH KOREAS AND CHINESE COAST.


Please look up the stats on the F-15 ---zero shot down --hundreds of kills .
f-22 is a better plane --its the Avionics and the PILOT training that determine who gets knocked out of the sky...

consider the USA has had stealth since 1980's---you will niot be considered an idiot if you guess that the USA used this time to discover how to detect and shoot down their own planes.

speculation on the prototype Chinese thingy --is fun ...even russia built one ..but go ahead and see if it works.

 

[blaaah]

America is living on trillions of borrowed money. China has so much money it struggles to know how to spend it's annual budget, it invests a lot.
It's not too hard to project the future.

 

[Dotini]

America is living on trillions of borrowed money. China has so much money it struggles to know how to spend it's annual budget, it invests a lot.
It's not too hard to project the future.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."
--Yogi Berra

 

[Exorcet]

You don't spend that much money and just piss it all down the drain after few years.

B-2. The US was supposed to get 100+. They got 20, because Congress said it was too expensive and not useful. They said the same thing about the F-22, saying that the F-35 will be better. Now they're saying the same thing about the F-35.

I don't think the Moskit and similar missiles are uncounterable. The ship radars wouldn't be the first to see it. The Hawkeyes, Orions, and things like that will spot them miles away from the actual carrier. Then it's a matter of scrambling the Super Hornets, some of which would probably be in the air already. That's not to say, the missiles will always be spotted, but there are defenses.

Please look up the stats on the F-15 ---zero shot down --hundreds of kills

That's the most useless fact ever. It doesn't mean the plane is any good.

 

[ExigeEvan]

B-2. The US was supposed to get 100+. They got 20, because Congress said it was too expensive and not useful. They said the same thing about the F-22, saying that the F-35 will be better. Now they're saying the same thing about the F-35.

The US defence budget is still facing Cold War fallout 20 years after the Berlin war fell. This is mostly because current conflicts are in huge contrast to what the arms world was gearing upto in the late 80s.

The F35 is a great post-cold-war aircraft and initial budgets were good. But my god the budget has spiralled out of control. No longer is it half the price of an F22. Atleast with the F35 you get a genuine multi-role aircraft and STOVL capability (B) to replace the Harrier fleet.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Even with all the weaponry China now has, I don't think they are too keen to go to war with their biggest customer in consumer goods.

 

[Exorcet]

No longer is it half the price of an F22. Atleast with the F35 you get a genuine multi-role aircraft and STOVL capability (B) to replace the Harrier fleet.

Actually it is. The estimated price is ~$60,000,000 if they go for the planned production numbers. The reason that all of these planes are so expensive is due in part to the fact that their production numbers get slashed.

A bit off topic, but to me the STOVL on the F-35 is a waste. It should have never been a requirement. It's expensive, complex, and not very useful. The F-35B will be scrapped in two years if the STOVL issues are not ironed out.