Choice

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Danoff

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Mile High City
Do you believe in choice?

Do you believe that the outcome of our lives is fundamentally in our hands or in society’s? Do you believe that if a person starts from humble beginnings that person can become anything they choose through hard work and dedication or is it impossible to have a society that permits this?

Let’s restrict the discussion to what I would refer to as the “normal” person. It is not necessary to include handicapped, mentally retarded, or otherwise incapable people in this discussion. I think we can all agree that the choices a brain-dead person might make (not that that’s possible) would not affect the outcome the he’d still be a vegetable. Similarly I think we can agree that someone who is born blind will most likely not be a fighter pilot.


At some point, a person’s choices in life may restrict the possibilities. I currently cannot become an Olympic gymnast. I’m too old to even compete let alone start the training. The choices I made (and my parents made) when I was 7 years old determined that outcome. Genetics plays a role as well in athletic sports so to some extent I have to play the cards I am delt.

But let’s think about poverty vs. riches. If I’m born into a poor family do I have a choice to become rich? Is that an avenue that is open to me? Am I fated to become poor? Am I trapped in poverty or is there a sequence of decisions I can make to better my situation? You might say “it depends”, if you think that, provide me with an example one way or the other.

I do not believe that human beings cannot overcome their starting place. I recognize that some will have advantage over others, and that’s a good and desirable thing for other reasons. I have known many poor people and all of them continue to be poor because of the decisions they make. I’ve known people who are crossing the boundaries both ways poor to rich and rich to poor. I don’t believe in the idea that people become trapped in a free society.
 
I think of choice as a limb. If you take it away, your pretty much done away with something very important.

Please don't hit me...
 
Absolutely.
I agree. No one in my family made anything of themselve in their lifetime. Didnt go to college, they dont have a good job, cant save, some dont even own a house. My point is I was raised with this poor family tree and I chose to try to do something with my life. I went to college and got a degree, I own a house, I still am not the richest person in the world but with the money I make I at least have something to show for it. :)
Conclusion: Yes the outcome of our lives is in our hands. 👍
 
Mostly I agree with you, but you also knew I was going to say that.

Will I say that hard work can overcome any disadvantage of circumstances? No. But never will I say that a person cannot 'escape' the specific set of constraints into which they are born.
 
By the way, I think its about time danoff here got himself an avatar. :) Sometimes I miss your posts when scrolling around big threads. It'd be nice to have a visual speed bump attached with your posts.


M
 
By the way, I think its about time danoff here got himself an avatar. Sometimes I miss your posts when scrolling around big threads. It'd be nice to have a visual speed bump attached with your posts.

Believe it or not I've been looking for one for a very long time. I have something specific in mind but I haven't been able to find it.
 
Yes, you have the choice. In English we read 'The Circuit' by Fancisco Jimenez which told the story of a Mexican immigrant story through a series of vignettes. The narrator tells of his boyhood and how he managed to graduate from school as class president. Now, obviously in that case some luck was involved, but the author had the choice to just give up and continue working as a low-wage farmer forever, or make something of his life. Even the people who "have it made" can make this choice. The rich have the choice to sit on their money, or put it to a good cause. Here in Madison, Jack Lussier has donated literally billions to various youth causes. We now have a new football stadium, a fine youth center, a YMCA, and many after school programs that he funds.
 
Perhaps he chose to make someone make him choose to make the thread. Maybe.
 
I totally agree on the fact that, in western society at least, no matter what your beginings, you have the opportunity to be what ever you consider to be 'succesful' - but this is obviously easyer if you are born into a wealthy family rather than a poorer one. Family wealth can open more doors for you where as if you are born poor, you may have to find and open them yourself. It also depends on upbringing and self-drive. if you are brought up by parents/teachers who tell you from an early age that no matter what choices you take in life - you'll never come to anything, chances are you won't - then again, this kind of upbringing can also prove highly motivating, if you read the bios of rich or famous people who 'came from nothing' its usually that negative advise that motivates them to sucede the most.

P.s. danoff - if you want a custom avatar, tell me what you want and i'll try my best - its my job, i'm a graphic designer ;)
 
neon_duke
Mostly I agree with you, but you also knew I was going to say that.

Will I say that hard work can overcome any disadvantage of circumstances? No. But never will I say that a person cannot 'escape' the specific set of constraints into which they are born.

^ I fully agree. In this reality, the way the world works, there are some poeple who just wont be able to make it that far no matter what they do. But 90% or more of the time, it's all in your own hands.
 
I think that we always have the ability to make choices to get out just about any situation. ("Free will" they call it; funny, I never thought will cost anything...)

There's always a few free, able-bodied people that never seem to like the available options, and feel that life is hopeless. The hell with them.
 
neon_duke
Mostly I agree with you, but you also knew I was going to say that.

Will I say that hard work can overcome any disadvantage of circumstances? No. But never will I say that a person cannot 'escape' the specific set of constraints into which they are born.

Yep. It also comes down to circumstance. If you come across an "established well-heeled person' who feels threatened by your advancement, and they are in a position to put obstacles in your way, then it is out of your hands.
 
Mike Rotch
Yep. It also comes down to circumstance. If you come across an "established well-heeled person' who feels threatened by your advancement, and they are in a position to put obstacles in your way, then it is out of your hands.

I'll save danoff the effort by saying you could always just quit and find another place where you won't be stopped, or you can start your own business. :dopey: ;)

I'd like to point out, neon, that people making it out of the ghettoes are still more the exception than the rule.
 
:grumpy:

Sometimes by moving jobs, one dents one chances of moving up in the working world. This could happen in the form of excessive employee hierarchies and differing job cultures. 👎
 
Yep. It also comes down to circumstance. If you come across an "established well-heeled person' who feels threatened by your advancement, and they are in a position to put obstacles in your way, then it is out of your hands.

By doing that they make themselves worse employees and more likely to be fired.

I'll save danoff the effort by saying you could always just quit and find another place where you won't be stopped, or you can start your own business.

Which is why they won't do it in the first place. Sure there will be a few examples but they'll be removed either because they can't recruit or because they hurt sales by doing something like that. The free market takes care of this.

I'd like to point out, neon, that people making it out of the ghettoes are still more the exception than the rule.

At some point that's their fault isn't it?
 
milefile
Yes, of course.

Luck you. May I suggest you use your freedom to learn about other points of view? The late Bill Hicks would be a good place to start, several of his routines are available on VHS and DVD and he's funny too.
 
Luck you. May I suggest you use your freedom to learn about other points of view? The late Bill Hicks would be a good place to start, several of his routines are available on VHS and DVD and he's funny too.

You say this as though you're going out of your way to understand milefile's view.
 
okoj
Luck you. May I suggest you use your freedom to learn about other points of view? The late Bill Hicks would be a good place to start, several of his routines are available on VHS and DVD and he's funny too.
Will he convince me that I am not free?
 
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