Classic Race Cars are underperforming compared to the IRL counterparts

[Dunderbolt]

I agree. But again, this is likely the case for every real car in the game. I don't think it is a showstopper. The handling and braking for old cars in the game is a bigger issue to me, rather than the top speed being off by a few mph.

I'm okay with handling and braking as I find that just part of classic cars, but when a car can't even hit the 200 mph on Le Man and I have to go to tracks like Special Stage Route X just to kiss 200mph, I feel as if I wasted the 10 hours (roughly) of grind to get the car.

There is no doubt a race prepped Mark IV made more than 500 HP in race trim. The 212 at LeMans was run with 1 car or did they have a 2nd car on track to draft with??
Besides, it's a video game and you can adjust the power level to get it to run 212 so just do that if it's important to run the same speed

Except uptuning doesn't help. It'll increase the top-speed but barely. I have gone on the Monza Straight with no Chicane, with a modified setup for me to get the highest top-speed possible. More horsepower, reduced weight, modified transmission, and I still can't hit it. This is worse in lobbies that actually allow people to tune their Classic cars, so I'll have P4's that are actually way faster than me and I have no acceleration to save me. All the data I found has shown that it can hit 211-213 so usually it's rounded to be around 12. The speeds I found were organized into 'race' and 'test' with the test scoring a lower number compared to race. So the 213 is probably what was recorded during a race, and the test was garnered with little to no other cars on it's own. Especially with articles inferencing that the car is reaching those speeds on it's own power

 

[Scaff]

Kaz said, in a gtplanet news article, the tyre model is accurate.

It's not.

Now while everyone is focused on the top speed issue, what has also been missed is that the GT40 should not be generating downforce. All the aero of the car did was reduce lift, but lift was still generated at speed.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/aerodatabasefordgt4067.html


The GT40 was aerodynamic, but it wasn't producing what could be acuratly called downforce.

 

[talhaONE]

Turning down the downforce only caused a 1-3 miles per hour difference from the downforce setup, the car still can't hit it's original speed. Even the P4 is missing a ton of it's top speed too. Every website (Including the official Ferrari website) states that the car's Max speed is 199, while it can reach only 187mph in game. https://auto.ferrari.com/en_EN/sports-cars-models/past-models/330-p4/

I cant speak for Mark 4 but 330 p4 in game has no roof which affects its aerodynamics.

Also have you tried decrease downforce fully for mark 4?

 

[ShiftingGears]

I'm okay with handling and braking as I find that just part of classic cars, but when a car can't even hit the 200 mph on Le Man and I have to go to tracks like Special Stage Route X just to kiss 200mph, I feel as if I wasted the 10 hours (roughly) of grind

To clarify, I think the braking and handling of old cars in the game is too good.

But on your complaint; it sounds like your real issue is that you had to grind 10 hours more than anything else. Would it bother you being 10mph slower if the car was free?

 

[phil_75]

On certain cars if you drop dampers to minimum the top speed increases.

 

[Dunderbolt]

It's not.

Now while everyone is focused on the top speed issue, what has also been missed is that the GT40 should not be generating downforce. All the aero of the car did was reduce lift, but lift was still generated at speed.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/aerodatabasefordgt4067.html


The GT40 was aerodynamic, but it wasn't producing what could be acuratly called downforce.

If I remember correctly, the car should be having major instability at higher speeds. It spoiled the air, but it didn't adequately enough frontally. So once it reached around 170-175mph it had a tendency to go off the rails. I dunno what the Mark II does about the situation though.

I cant speak for Mark 4 but 330 p4 in game has no roof which affects its aerodynamics.

Also have you tried decrease downforce fully for mark 4?

Yes, I have. Nothing came of it.

To clarify, I think the braking and handling of old cars in the game is too good.

But on your complaint; it sounds like your real issue is that you had to grind 10 hours more than anything else. Would it bother you being 10mph slower if the car was free?

It's part of the issue, but I'm more disheartened by the performance of the Mark IV than it's price. I'm more than willing to spend the time if it was properly performing, even if it was cheaper. I would still be pissed because I've admired this car for a long time, and to see it get beaten by the P4 in speed is absolutely annoying

On certain cars if you drop dampers to minimum the top speed increases.

Tested that and it didn't work much sadly.

 

[Guffaluff]

To clarify, I think the braking and handling of old cars in the game is too good.

But on your complaint; it sounds like your real issue is that you had to grind 10 hours more than anything else. Would it bother you being 10mph slower if the car was free?

I think that's mainly due to default tires being Racing Hard, which are basicly modern slicks and are too grippy for vintage race cars.

I remember when I bought the Aston DB3S and feeling disappointed in how on rails it seemed, but switching down to Sport tires or even Comfort Soft made for a (seemingly) more realistic experience, bearing in mind I haven't driven these cars in real life

 

[Greycap]

I like crunching numbers when it comes to top speeds.

The Mk IV has, according to the mighty Interwebz, 325 mm wide 15" rear tyres. Nobody tells the profile but estimating from pictures the sidewall is pretty close to a third of the wheel diameter, making the diameter of the entire tyre 25 inches. The fourth gear ratio is 1:1 and the final gear is commonly quoted as 3,09 with some 2,77 values also found - it's the result of a 0,899 transfer gear used at Le Mans. The actual final ratio was always the same, changes in ratios were made by changing the transfer gear.

The car travels very close to 200 cm with one revolution of the rear wheel. 2,54 x 25 x Pi = 1995 mm and fractions.

To do this it needs 3,09 revolutions of the crankshaft. With the engine supposedly limited to 6200 rpm in the race the maximum rpm for the rear wheel is very close to 2000 (6200 / 3,09) which means that in one minute the car travels 4000m, resulting in a speed of 240 km/h (60 km/h means one minute per one km, easy calculations) which isn't even close.

With a 2,77 final gear the speed would be just below 270 km/h which is better but still missing another 70 km/h.

To be able to hit 341 km/h the car would have to travel 5683 metres per minute. With a 3,09 final gear it would mean nearly 8800 rpm and with a 2,77 still nearly 7900 rpm.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong on any of these calculations but at the moment nothing matches.


Oh, and absolutely no Racing Hards for these cars unless the race demands them. Comfort Softs all day long.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

The Ford Mark IV is generally considered the fastest in a straightline because of its powerful engine and its streamliner like design. This was on purpose because Ford really wanted to win LeMans again and literally spared no expense (As this car per unit was so expensive it was about a million dollars in 1967 money), this cost the car some of its cornering power because of the tradeoff of downforce for lower drag. It was basically the 1960s equivalent of a longtail Group C or a 917LH, just 200mph was crazy for the time and this car was one of the earliest LeMans cars to reach that speed. Down the Mulsanne straight it was devastating against all competitors and that advantage added up over the course of the race.

It took a few years to get the Ford actually to be race worthy and somewhat safe. Several test drivers quit because the car was so dangerous to drive in the beginning stages.

Basically the Ford's weak point was trying to keep brakes on the vehicle as the metals and brake components of the era were not capable of the abuse from hauling a car down from the top speeds they were obtaining and it has been said the Ford drivers were backing off way early on the straights to try to make the brakes last for a race distance.

Actually a movie being released here in the next few weeks " Ford vs Ferrari" that is a movie about the Le mans story about Fords Quest to win Le Mans.

 

[sparkytooth]

It took a few years to get the Ford actually to be race worthy and somewhat safe. Several test drivers quit because the car was so dangerous to drive in the beginning stages.

Basically the Ford's weak point was trying to keep brakes on the vehicle as the metals and brake components were not capable of the abuse and it has been said the Ford drivers were backing off way early on the straights to try to make the brakes last for a race distance.

Actually a movie being released here in the next few weeks " Ford vs Ferrari" that is a movie about the Le mans story about Fords Quest to win.

The early development J car (The car that would become the Mk IV or J5) did actually kill Ken Miles, one of the drivers of the #1 car in 1966 who was leading the race in the final hours.

 

[Dunderbolt]

I like crunching numbers when it comes to top speeds.

The Mk IV has, according to the mighty Interwebz, 325 mm wide 15" rear tyres. Nobody tells the profile but estimating from pictures the sidewall is pretty close to a third of the wheel diameter, making the diameter of the entire tyre 25 inches. The fourth gear ratio is 1:1 and the final gear is commonly quoted as 3,09 with some 2,77 values also found - it's the result of a 0,899 transfer gear used at Le Mans. The actual final ratio was always the same, changes in ratios were made by changing the transfer gear.

The car travels very close to 200 cm with one revolution of the rear wheel. 2,54 x 25 x Pi = 1995 mm and fractions.

To do this it needs 3,09 revolutions of the crankshaft. With the engine supposedly limited to 6200 rpm in the race the maximum rpm for the rear wheel is very close to 2000 (6200 / 3,09) which means that in one minute the car travels 4000m, resulting in a speed of 240 km/h (60 km/h means one minute per one km, easy calculations) which isn't even close.

With a 2,77 final gear the speed would be just below 270 km/h which is better but still missing another 70 km/h.

To be able to hit 341 km/h the car would have to travel 5683 metres per minute. With a 3,09 final gear it would mean nearly 8800 rpm and with a 2,77 still nearly 7900 rpm.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong on any of these calculations but at the moment nothing matches.


Oh, and absolutely no Racing Hards for these cars unless the race demands them. Comfort Softs all day long.

Does this take into account of the aerodynamics of the car itself? Or does that not matter?

Here's some extra information that may help https://www.gt40s.com/threads/gt-40-specs.53464/

Also, looking at the topspeed of the GT40 MK I upgraded. Even though it's still heavier than the Mark IV when the weight is reduced, and holds less power. It actually beats the Mark IV in the speed department. I dunno how much of this can be chalked to downforce.

I have decided to test a fully upgraded (Reduced weight, more HP, custom gearbox) run fully on the Le Mans. Both cars are able to actually reach the 210 mark and beyond, but the P4 destroys the Mark IV by 4 seconds. From what I'm seeing is the P4's acceleration absolutely destroys it. The P4 hits 217 on the straight. the Mark IV hits 219-220.

 

[05XR8]

I've been using the '61 250 GT. Real life specs say it has 235hp. This one in GTS has 275. The Competizione has 276hp and a top speed of 268km/h. The gearing in GTS has it topping out at 215km/h.

These varying specs also happen with newer cars as well. One only has to look at the specifications and then the specs that scroll under a car in Brand Central. It's conflicting info. Not even measured in PS to HP to BHP. It's the same measurement.

I was watching this I video and even these cars aren't reaching their published top speeds. There are just too many variables.

 

[Dunderbolt]

I've been using the '61 250 GT. Real life specs say it has 235hp. This one in GTS has 275. The Competizione has 276hp and a top speed of 268km/h. The gearing in GTS has it topping out at 215km/h.

These varying specs also happen with newer cars as well. One only has to look at the specifications and then the specs that scroll under a car in Brand Central. It's conflicting info. Not even measured in PS to HP to BHP. It's the same measurement.

I was watching this I video and even these cars aren't reaching their published top speeds. There are just too many variables.

Looking at the "Car info" blurb in brand central, it was stated that the Mark IV actually had 522hp, yet the game doesn't reflect that, and even when upgrading it to within those parameters (It was only able to hit 524, so I decided that was as close as I could get) the car still couldn't reach that top-speed. Even after messing with Aero and the transmission. My question is where they got the information for that.

I understand what you mean about cars not reaching their projected top-speeds. My problem is that these speeds weren't done in house and then reported to the public. These cars actually reached these speeds on the race track and was reported by officials. Especially when multiple Mark IV's were able to reach way beyond the 200mph mark. Drafting in-game didn't even let me reach those speeds.

 

[Greycap]

Does this take into account of the aerodynamics of the car itself? Or does that not matter?

It doesn't matter. Regardless of the power, regardless of the drag, if the engine is doing that much rpm with those gear ratios and those tyres, the speed will be that. GT Sport actually agrees with my calculations almost exactly so the tyre size approximation is probably close enough.

Looking at the "Car info" blurb in brand central, it was stated that the Mark IV actually had 522hp, yet the game doesn't reflect that, and even when upgrading it to within those parameters (It was only able to hit 524, so I decided that was as close as I could get) the car still couldn't reach that top-speed. Even after messing with Aero and the transmission. My question is where they got the information for that.

The gearing on the car in the game is completely off judging by any sources that can be found. However, as noted by my earlier post, the ratios that are said to have been in the car in that particular race produce speeds nothing like they should.

However, I put in ratios (https://www.supercars.net/blog/1967-ford-gt40-mark-iv-2/) that use a 1:1 fourth gear, resorted to a 2,25:1 final drive, and did 336 km/h right around 6200 rpm on the flat section of Route X with Comfort Softs (tyres affect top speed, believe it or not, grippier are faster) stock power and minimum downforce. With zero downforce or a small hike in power - that 524 bhp could actually be enough, didn't try - I have no doubt about it being to do 341 km/h.

 

[Dunderbolt]

It doesn't matter. Regardless of the power, regardless of the drag, if the engine is doing that much rpm with those gear ratios and those tyres, the speed will be that. GT Sport actually agrees with my calculations almost exactly so the tyre size approximation is probably close enough.


The gearing on the car in the game is completely off judging by any sources that can be found. However, as noted by my earlier post, the ratios that are said to have been in the car in that particular race produce speeds nothing like they should.

However, I put in ratios (https://www.supercars.net/blog/1967-ford-gt40-mark-iv-2/) that use a 1:1 fourth gear, resorted to a 2,25:1 final drive, and did 336 km/h right around 6200 rpm on the flat section of Route X with Comfort Softs (tyres affect top speed, believe it or not, grippier are faster) stock power and minimum downforce. With zero downforce or a small hike in power - that 524 bhp could actually be enough, didn't try - I have no doubt about it being to do 341 km/h.

Did you adjust ride height to around 4 inches? Would that affect top-speed? Also, would you mind sharing what you input into the car so I can replicate it?

At this point, what is going on with the car? If the car was shown the be able to reach the 200+ speeds, then what's stopping the car from going faster in game? Is this a limit of the game trying to emulate? Has the car not really been given as much attention it needs to make it perform correctly? Or Is it better decided that Ford somehow cheated and some randoms on the internet found them out.

 

[The_Tullster]

Sorry for double, don't know how that happened.

 

[The_Tullster]

If the car was shown the be able to reach the 200+ speeds, then what's stopping the car from going faster in game?

I've not tested it myself, but from @Greycap 's description of the stock gearing, you're hitting the rev limiter long before you run out of power. Real cars of the Mark IV vintage mostly didn't have rev limiters, they relied on the driver to not allow the engine to rev faster than the revcounter redline. Drivers were (mostly) highly motivated to stick to that limit as running higher than redline at best means running at rapidly reducing engine power as the revs increase and at worst means rapid and catastrophic engine failure.
If the engine was designed to survive accidental overrevs from a missed gear for example, it may be that the Mark IV was able to exceed the redline speed without destroying the engine. In the game this is not possible as all cars have automatic redline rev limiters, even cars that didn't have them in real life.
The only option in the game to bypass the redline is to customise the gear box and select higher gear ratios or a higher final drive ratio. The trade off is reduced acceleration at any give speed as the higher gear means lower torque at the drive wheels.

 

[Dunderbolt]

I've not tested it myself, but from @Greycap 's description of the stock gearing, you're hitting the rev limiter long before you run out of power. Real cars of the Mark IV vintage mostly didn't have rev limiters, they relied on the driver to not allow the engine to rev faster than the revcounter redline. Drivers were (mostly) highly motivated to stick to that limit as running higher than redline at best means running at rapidly reducing engine power as the revs increase and at worst means rapid and catastrophic engine failure.
If the engine was designed to survive accidental overrevs from a missed gear for example, it may be that the Mark IV was able to exceed the redline speed without destroying the engine. In the game this is not possible as all cars have automatic redline rev limiters, even cars that didn't have them in real life.
The only option in the game to bypass the redline is to customise the gear box and select higher gear ratios or a higher final drive ratio. The trade off is reduced acceleration at any give speed as the higher gear means lower torque at the drive wheels.

So I was correct in something was wrong, but it was more broad and not exactlywhat I thought it was. I'm guessing that means Gran Turismo needs to fix that—which I'll doubt they'll do.
At this point I guess I can only be disgruntled at the fact that. The P4 can uptune it's horsepower up to 600hp while being so light while the Mark IV has to deal with an extra 400-500 lbs while only having 13-20hp more than than P4


In this case, from a developer's point of view, how hard would that be to add no rev limiting? There are damage mechanics so after going too far you could damage the car? I mean, I doubt Polyphony will care about intricate details, because they want to ride that sweet sweet FIA gravy train that really no one cares about. But out of curiosity, is it possible?

 

[Greycap]

Did you adjust ride height to around 4 inches? Would that affect top-speed? Also, would you mind sharing what you input into the car so I can replicate it

I run mine at around five inches. But there's nothing magical in my setup - slightly reduce the rear camber, perhaps decrease toe values, use whatever tricks it takes with the Auto adjustment to get the gear ratios shown in my link (ignore the fifth gear in the fully customizable transmission) but set the final gear to 2,250, set downforce to minimum, floor it. Try different power settings while you're at it, at least stock and the 524 bhp figure. I haven't had time.

At this point, what is going on with the car? If the car was shown the be able to reach the 200+ speeds, then what's stopping the car from going faster in game? Is this a limit of the game trying to emulate? Has the car not really been given as much attention it needs to make it perform correctly? Or Is it better decided that Ford somehow cheated and some randoms on the internet found them out.

To quickly answer what is going on, two things: a slightly badly modelled car and some misinformation in the commonly quoted specs.

The main problem with the car itself is the gearbox, the gear ratios don't match anything found anywhere. In a car like this it would have been very easy to get it right since the T-44 transmission is extremely well documented but somehow they blew it. However, the commonly quoted final gear simply cant be right. While the 427 was run with reduced rpm (always stay below 6200 rpm, multiple sources saying the same) at Le Mans to increase reliability it's said to have been capable of 7400 rpm safely. However even that wouldn't be enough as it would need yet another 500 rpm to reach 341 km/h even with the 0,899 transfer gear set which effectively turns the 3,09 final gear into a 2,77 ratio. If it was to do 341 km/h at 6200 rpm it would need a transfer gear set of around 0,725 to make it an effective 2,250 final gear. If the car indeed had such gearing it's not mentioned anywhere.

I don't think anyone's cheating. Someone is just holding back some vital information about how such a speed was possible - the car can do it, just not with the gearing it is said to have had.

In this case, from a developer's point of view, how hard would that be to add no rev limiting? There are damage mechanics so after going too far you could damage the car? I mean, I doubt Polyphony will care about intricate details, because they want to ride that sweet sweet FIA gravy train that really no one cares about. But out of curiosity, is it possible?

Very possible. When an engine gets too far from its designed powerband it either loses so much power that it can't rev any higher or grenades itself. Very few engines actually do the latter without prolonged exposure, usually it's just that the valvetrain or ignition (remember, talking about purely mechanical ignition here) can't keep up anymore and the engine simply won't go any higher. Back in GT4/5/6 the 440 Cuda was a good example of this, it had the normal rev limiter but it ran out of breath so severely in the higher rpms that it effectively acted like it had none. It just couldn't pull to the limiter in higher gears.

 

[Dunderbolt]

I run mine at around five inches. But there's nothing magical in my setup - slightly reduce the rear camber, perhaps decrease toe values, use whatever tricks it takes with the Auto adjustment to get the gear ratios shown in my link (ignore the fifth gear in the fully customizable transmission) but set the final gear to 2,250, set downforce to minimum, floor it. Try different power settings while you're at it, at least stock and the 524 bhp figure. I haven't had time.


To quickly answer what is going on, two things: a slightly badly modelled car and some misinformation in the commonly quoted specs.

The main problem with the car itself is the gearbox, the gear ratios don't match anything found anywhere. In a car like this it would have been very easy to get it right since the T-44 transmission is extremely well documented but somehow they blew it. However, the commonly quoted final gear simply cant be right. While the 427 was run with reduced rpm (always stay below 6200 rpm, multiple sources saying the same) at Le Mans to increase reliability it's said to have been capable of 7400 rpm safely. However even that wouldn't be enough as it would need yet another 500 rpm to reach 341 km/h even with the 0,899 transfer gear set which effectively turns the 3,09 final gear into a 2,77 ratio. If it was to do 341 km/h at 6200 rpm it would need a transfer gear set of around 0,725 to make it an effective 2,250 final gear. If the car indeed had such gearing it's not mentioned anywhere.

I don't think anyone's cheating. Someone is just holding back some vital information about how such a speed was possible - the car can do it, just not with the gearing it is said to have had.


Very possible. When an engine gets too far from its designed powerband it either loses so much power that it can't rev any higher or grenades itself. Very few engines actually do the latter without prolonged exposure, usually it's just that the valvetrain or ignition (remember, talking about purely mechanical ignition here) can't keep up anymore and the engine simply won't go any higher. Back in GT4/5/6 the 440 Cuda was a good example of this, it had the normal rev limiter but it ran out of breath so severely in the higher rpms that it effectively acted like it had none. It just couldn't pull to the limiter in higher gears.

I asked about the 4 inch ride height due to some information I found stating the car sat at 4 inches. It was the link that led to a GT40 forum. Anyway, at this point, the game is stating it has 6000 RPM, yet the car could reach up to 7400 RPM safely. Note, I'm not super intelligent about cars at all so I'm basing this entirely off of your word. If the car in game was reaching 7400 RPM and had the correct gearing ratios, it would hit the 341 km/h mark. Right?

Also, so a car with no rev limiter can be simulated by making the rev limit extremely high to the point that it can't be reached? If I'm understanding this correctly. Similar to what you said with the 440 Cuda?


Also, some extra information. The two documents I post I dunno if they're from the Mark I or II's

 

[Greycap]

I asked about the 4 inch ride height due to some information I found stating the car sat at 4 inches. It was the link that led to a GT40 forum. Anyway, at this point, the game is stating it has 6000 RPM, yet the car could reach up to 7400 RPM safely. Note, I'm not super intelligent about cars at all so I'm basing this entirely off of your word. If the car in game was reaching 7400 RPM and had the correct gearing ratios, it would hit the 341 km/h mark. Right?

Not quite, it would need around 7900 rpm to do it. And it still doesn't change the fact that it was kept below 6200 rpm in that race.

-Kar Kraft: design and build original 'prototypes. Headed by Roy Lunn, with Chuck Mountain, Ed Hull and Bob Negstad on staff, and various "moonlighting" Ford engineers."It's a cooking engine. I can lug it down to 1000 rpm in 4th. When does it come 'on the cam'?-oh, about 3000 rpm! We babied them. The thing's safe for 7400 rpm, but we never exceeded 6200 in the race.

http://sportscars.tv/Newfiles/66fordgtdevewin.html

It's actually about the Mk II but the same engine was retained for the Mk IV, and the Mk II was nearly equally as fast in a straight line.

Also, so a car with no rev limiter can be simulated by making the rev limit extremely high to the point that it can't be reached? If I'm understanding this correctly. Similar to what you said with the 440 Cuda?

Basically yes. Set the rev limiter high enough and make the power drop off enough so that it can't get there. It would feel a lot like the smooth rev limiter at the highest gear at the moment, the engine would just stop revving at some point. It can even produce pretty good power until it falls off the cliff due to the valvetrain or ignition not being able to keep up.

 

[Dunderbolt]

Not quite, it would need around 7900 rpm to do it. And it still doesn't change the fact that it was kept below 6200 rpm in that race.


http://sportscars.tv/Newfiles/66fordgtdevewin.html

It's actually about the Mk II but the same engine was retained for the Mk IV, and the Mk II was nearly equally as fast in a straight line.


Basically yes. Set the rev limiter high enough and make the power drop off enough so that it can't get there. It would feel a lot like the smooth rev limiter at the highest gear at the moment, the engine would just stop revving at some point. It can even produce pretty good power until it falls off the cliff due to the valvetrain or ignition not being able to keep up.

Is this where the supposed 522 horsepower would make more sense? Or is the 7900 RPM number for when the car only has 500 horsepower. Also you said they dialed back the RPM, basically did they just dial back that little redline on the tachometer and went "You can go beyond that, but don't."

From what I'm seeing is that it's mostly the gear ratios being completely wrong which is putting the car down, in that case, is it possible to contact a Ford Archivist for the gear ratios. I could probably ask for the source of the gear ratios that are commonly associated with the Mark IV. Maybe hunt down "Richard Owen" the person who posted these stats to figure out where he got them from.

I also did a test on the Route X straight and was able to get the exact gear ratios after fiddling with the auto-set.

I did reach 212mph, though barely at 524. But I've noticed that the car reaches 7000RPM. Does the game actually have the car able to hit 7000RPM? I did some low speed acceleration tests, and even when giving RPM, the car doesn't want to go at all, it just lumbers along. Something feels wrong here.

I also did a test on Le Man. Of course, I know it's different from what it was in the 60's, but the follow up to the Mulsanne Straight and all the ways towards the end of it, including the kink, look very similar. Testing both, I was able to reach 204 with only 500 HP and 208 with 524 HP.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Did a quick test at Route X time trial. Minimum downforce F&R and tweaked gearbox so it sits at RPM producing max power at top speed.

Stock power it reached ~340 km/h (212.5 mph). Full power it reached ~360 km/h (225 mph). So well within the numbers in real life.

I think OP is overcomplicating things by sticking to gear ratio numbers based on some websites that we don't even know is correct.

 

[Dunderbolt]

Did a quick test at Route X time trial. Minimum downforce F&R and tweaked gearbox so it sits at RPM producing max power at top speed.

Stock power it reached ~340 km/h (212.5 mph). Full power it reached ~360 km/h (225 mph). So well within the numbers in real life.

I think OP is overcomplicating things by sticking to gear ratio numbers based on some websites that we don't even know is correct.

What ratios did you use?

 

[LeGeNd-1]

What ratios did you use?

I just adjusted the max speed setting. IIRC stock power it was 370 km/h and full power 390 km/h.

 

[Dunderbolt]

I just adjusted the max speed setting. IIRC stock power it was 370 km/h and full power 390 km/h.

Edit: I misread it. I thought you were hitting 229MPH in a stock car, but I tried what you stated and even using the fifth gear, I couldn't hit 212MPH. Also, we have reached a conclusion that the gear ratios aren't correct. From what I'm seeing of it though is that the game sees the car only have 6000RPM but allows the car to rev up 7000 RPM before rev limiting. So something is still amiss here.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Edit: I misread it. I thought you were hitting 229MPH in a stock car, but I tried what you stated and even using the fifth gear, I couldn't hit 212MPH. Also, we have reached a conclusion that the gear ratios aren't correct. From what I'm seeing of it though is that the game sees the car only have 6000RPM but allows the car to rev up 7000 RPM before rev limiting. So something is still amiss here.

Unless you ask the Ford mechanics working at that time, nobody can say for sure what gear ratios are correct. You just have to assume that the car was geared to sit at the RPM at which it makes max power down the Mulsanne straight, and do the same in game. The exact numbers of each ratio isn't really that important here. We just need the car at stock power and min aero to reach the supposedly "212 mph". Which I did.

Not sure what the problem with RPM is. A lot of cars makes peak power below the rpm limiter (e.g. any old muscle cars with big V8s).

 

[phil_75]

I've not tested it myself, but from @Greycap 's description of the stock gearing, you're hitting the rev limiter long before you run out of power. Real cars of the Mark IV vintage mostly didn't have rev limiters, they relied on the driver to not allow the engine to rev faster than the revcounter redline. Drivers were (mostly) highly motivated to stick to that limit as running higher than redline at best means running at rapidly reducing engine power as the revs increase and at worst means rapid and catastrophic engine failure.
If the engine was designed to survive accidental overrevs from a missed gear for example, it may be that the Mark IV was able to exceed the redline speed without destroying the engine. In the game this is not possible as all cars have automatic redline rev limiters, even cars that didn't have them in real life.
The only option in the game to bypass the redline is to customise the gear box and select higher gear ratios or a higher final drive ratio. The trade off is reduced acceleration at any give speed as the higher gear means lower torque at the drive wheels.

The way i see it and what seems to be missing from the conversation is that the top speeds couldn't be accurate unless the drag co coefficient of every car is factored in and modelled.
Slightly off topic I also keep hearing talk of dirty air, do we even know if this is an actual thing modelled in the game or just a convenient excuse for people making mistakes?

Also the thinking that they would run at red line max power i would doubt as its a 24hr race, the redline would be at the sweet spot of performance and longevity.

 

[The_Tullster]

Slightly off topic I also keep hearing talk of dirty air, do we even know if this is an actual thing modelled in the game or just a convenient excuse for people making mistakes?

Absolutely it's modelled or you couldn't get a speed boost by drafting and you wouldn't lose cornering and braking traction more easily in high downforce cars when following another car. The question should be "Is it modelled accurately?"

 

[Dunderbolt]

Unless you ask the Ford mechanics working at that time, nobody can say for sure what gear ratios are correct. You just have to assume that the car was geared to sit at the RPM at which it makes max power down the Mulsanne straight, and do the same in game. The exact numbers of each ratio isn't really that important here. We just need the car at stock power and min aero to reach the supposedly "212 mph". Which I did.

Not sure what the problem with RPM is. A lot of cars makes peak power below the rpm limiter (e.g. any old muscle cars with big V8s).

Are you going only with 4 gears or shifting with all 5 gears? Because if you are doing all 5, that 212 speed is invalid as the car originally had a 4-speed gear box, car simply can't reach it's 212mph speed. It's missing something. Going on the mulsanne straight. I can't reach any of that speed at all, even if the gear ratios are wrong, the car feels absolutely awful when I try to accelerate.