Cogito Ergo Sum

  • Thread starter Danoff
  • 73 comments
  • 1,483 views

Danoff

Premium
34,109
United States
Mile High City
Cogito Ergo Sum (I think therefore I exist)

Descartes postulated this phrase as he asked some very fundamental metaphysical questions about the nature of knowledge and reality.

What do you know about your existence? You know that you get up every morning and go to work/school. You know that you’re sitting in front of a computer reading this. You might consider this to be truth – absolute knowledge. But let’s get a little more fundamental. All of your perceptions are in your head. The light signals gathered by your eyes are passed into your brain which reconstructs what it thinks the image should look like… but it all occurs in your brain. When you bump into something you feel it only because electrical impulses are sent to your brain which interprets them. When you taste something it isn’t necessarily that the thing tastes a certain way – it’s that your brain interprets signals a certain way.

Let’s say for example that what you think is blue, is actually what everyone else calls red. How would you not know that this is what is happening right now? You don’t call it red, because nobody else calls it red – they call that color blue… but the color you think of in your head as blue isn’t necessarily the color they think of as blue. It amounts to your brain interpreting light frequency… and you experience the same light frequency as someone else but your brain may interpret it differently than theirs does.

Why does this matter? Why does it make a difference that your perception of the entire world occurs in your mind? Because your mind can be tricked.

Let’s say you eat some special mushrooms that cause your brain to function a little differently. All of the sudden you see things where nobody else sees them. You would have sworn that you saw Martha Stewart’s head on a horse, but nobody else saw it. A simple mushroom can totally alter your perception of reality.

When you sleep, you encounter a dream reality that doesn’t exist anywhere but in your head. What if the world you think of as real isn’t any more real than a dream? I’m starting to sound like the movie “The Matrix” and it’s because that movie tackles the very same metaphysical question I’m posing. How do you know what is real and what is not? If you believe in God, or the Devil, how do you know that what you think is reality isn’t just some vision that either of these entities is making you see? How do you know it isn’t the machines tricking you into believing that a virtual reality is real?

So what do you know?

If you can’t trust your senses, you have to accept that the entire world could be in your mind. You have to accept that you may not be human. You may not have arms and legs, you may be an artificially intelligent computer program or (to borrow a classical example) a brain in a vat of liquid hooked up to a computer that feeds you the reality you think of as real.

So not only do you know nothing of your environment, you know nothing of your own existence. Perhaps you don’t exist at all! Perhaps you’re a figment of someone else’s imagination, ready to blink of our existence as soon as they think of something else. We’ll come back to that.

So we’ve thrown out the senses, those are easy to trick. Can we trust science? No. How can we trust science? We don’t even know if atoms exist, let alone how they behave. We don’t know anything of the reality external to our existence, so we can’t trust that science is real. Can we trust mathematics? No. What if in the reality that we exist in (but cannot perceive) 1+1=3. Anytime anyone adds two things together a third one appears. That’s hard to imagine but we don’t know that is isn’t the case because we don’t know if we can even perceive reality. Can we trust logic? If A therefore B, A, therefore B? Nope. We can toss logic out with mathematics. Logic could be flipped on its ear and we wouldn’t even know it.

So what do we know? Nothing?

We know something. We know that we think. Something creates my thoughts… I may not understand how they are created or even my own nature, but something creates them. Whatever that thing is that creates my thoughts, I can define it to be me… and so I exist. I know that I exist as the creator of my thoughts.

I know something else too. I know what my thoughts are – what things I have experienced. Even if it was all in my head, I know that I perceived these things. I can’t take much from that except the fact that nothing in my perception has led me to believe that the world is imaginary. I have no reason to question reality other than that it is logically possible for everything I have experienced to be false.

Without any evidence to believe that reality is false, why should think that it is so? I can think that it is possible without thinking that it is so. That allows me to go back to accepting logic and mathematics. Until I have some reason to think that those are incorrect, I will go on assuming that they are – even though I know it may not be so.

But science is something one step removed. With science, it may not even be so if I accept reality as it is presented to me. Something in reality would have to fundamentally change to invalidate mathematics or logic. But science could be proven wrong at any moment because it is based on flawed logical reasoning.

But accepting science is very much like choosing to accept the reality with which I am presented. Science is based on our evidence to date. Just like we choose to accept reality until we are presented with a reason not to, so can we accept science until we are presented with a reason not to. When coping with reality, we used our experiences and perceptions to date and decided to go with our best guess of what the truth was. The same happens with science. Scientists use all of the evidence and observations to date and go with their best guess of what the truth is.

But while we have no reason to think that reality, mathematics, or even accepted science is false – because we have no evidence to support such a claim – we cannot logically conclude that it is truth. The possibility always exists that we are a brain in a vat of goo, experiencing our world as presented to us by a masterful computer.


A religious person might read this and think that they have just as much reason to accept a god as to accept science – because they have personal evidence that a god is real and no evidence to the contrary. I submit that that much is true. You have no evidence that some god is not real… you can even view things science cannot explain (and your own personal experiences) as evidence that there is a god. So in absence of evidence to the contrary, you can logically accept that there is likely a god. But you cannot know that there is a god any more than I know that science is real – because you cannot truly know anything about your environment or the nature of your experiences. You could be a brain in a vat.

But let’s take this a step further. Let’s assume that you have evidence to support the existence of a supreme being (which you may… I do not). You have perceived certain things about this being… perhaps that it seems to be benevolent. Perhaps that it is a comfort or guiding force. Perhaps it even speaks to you and says that it is God from the bible. In the absence of evidence to the contrary you could believe then that this God was the God of the bible right? If it did not tell you this last bit then you have no basis to assume that it is of the bible since there are likely countless religions that fit the description of your experience, and there exists the possibility that this is a god from a religion that man knows nothing of.

But lets say that this God did tell you that he was the God of the bible. Now you’re in a tough spot. The bible, on its face, appears to have zero credibility. There’s the plot holes, the contradictions with science and scientific observations… things like the planets orbiting the sun… things like the earth not being round… lack of any evidence of a worldwide flood and so-on. There’s the fact that the bible is written by man and sounds like an answer to all of mans questions – which immediately makes it seem contrived.

So now, for the first time in this conversation, you have evidence to support one side and evidence to support another. This is a unique spot. Let’s examine the evidence.

On the one hand you have humanity’s scientists claiming one thing.
You have the bible shooting its credibility in the foot by claiming things to the contrary.
You have the bible being inconsistent with itself, people showing up out of nowhere.
You have the bible’s contrivedness, answering all of the questions that man would naturally want answered.

And you have the voice in your head, which claims otherwise.

Now if there were no evidence that the bible was false, you could in accept the voice in your head as telling the truth (all the while knowing that you might not be hearing anything because you could be a brain in a vat). You could accept it because you have no evidence to the contrary. But in this case you have a substantial quantity of evidence to the contrary. The only logical conclusion then is that you cannot accept what the voice in your head tells you… even if it tells you it God and the bible is correct. It could be lying, and you have evidence to support that possibility.

Regardless of all of this… no one can claim that they know anything that is true other than that they exist. Everything beyond that is accepted because of lack of counter evidence.

Edit:

There are a few quetions I'm asking here:

1) Does anyone have any metaphysical arguments that go against what I've written?
2) For Religious people. Can you:
- Admit that you cannot be certain God exists because you could be a brain in a vat and all of your experiences could be deception?
- Admit that if your firsthand experiences with God do not include him telling you that he is the God of the bible, that you don't know who's God you worship?
- Admit that you must question the voices in your head, even if they say they are the God of the bible?
 
Ergo?

I think you mean ego, I.

-bam
-bas
-bat
-bamus
-batis
-bam

Just as servo would be better than servi in most cases.

"Ego sum" or "ego summus" is best used to start sentances refering to yourself unless you use the first person singular, e.g (exemple gratis):
"veni, vidi, vici"

In this case as all words are in an earlier congugation the "-i" eding is in firest person singular, "I cam, I saw, I conquered"

I may be wrong, I quit Latin last year.
 
all we know is taught to us, we dont need to believe it but we do because we are scared that everything is wrong, we keep in a good mind of state, live our lives and if everything is wrong we are ******

well thats what i think anyways...
 
Flame-returns
Ergo?

I think you mean ego, I.

-bam
-bas
-bat
-bamus
-batis
-bam

Just as servo would be better than servi in most cases.

"Ego sum" or "ego summus" is best used to start sentances refering to yourself unless you use the first person singular, e.g (exemple gratis):
"veni, vidi, vici"

In this case as all words are in an earlier congugation the "-i" eding is in firest person singular, "I cam, I saw, I conquered"

I may be wrong, I quit Latin last year.

You are.

Cogito ergo sum means "I think, therefore I am".

(cogito - I think. sum - I am. ergo - therefore)
 
I think it's about time we've had a thread like this, to seriously challenge our perception of the world and possibly open the eyes of a few others.
 
its kinda like sayin that yellow is quite simply yellow because we were taught it, we dont need to believe it, for all i know i could say yellow is actually nvuzrhg...
 
Bee
its kinda like sayin that yellow is quite simply yellow because we were taught it, we dont need to believe it, for all i know i could say yellow is actually nvuzrhg...

Except it's not. Yellow is the name you've assigned to a particular color, and is just internationally recognised. Even if you can only see 3 colours, you would have assigned that name to that shade/colour.
 
danoff
Cogito Ergo Sum (I think therefore I exist)
Regardless of all of this… no one can claim that they know anything that is true other than that they exist. Everything beyond that is accepted because of lack of counter evidence.

So then what is the point? Seriously, what was even the point of this thread since I (by your current definition) can't prove it exists?
 
Didn't you read the entire post? It should be pretty obvious by the end.
 
Sage
Didn't you read the entire post? It should be pretty obvious by the end.

That science is the only thing close to truth and any religous person is just living in a world of myth? Very long winded if that's what he was saying.
 
There are a few quetions I'm asking here:

1) Does anyone have any metaphysical arguments that go against what I've written?
2) For Religious people. Can you:
- Admit that you cannot be certain God exists because you could be a brain in a vat and all of your experiences could be deception?
- Admit that if your firsthand experiences with God do not include him telling you that he is the God of the bible, that you don't know who's God you worship?
- Admit that you must question the voices in your head, even if they say they are the God of the bible?

(I'll update this to the first post)
 
danoff
There are a few quetions I'm asking here:

2) For Religious people. Can you:
- Admit that you cannot be certain God exists because you could be a brain in a vat and all of your experiences could be deception?
- Admit that if your firsthand experiences with God do not include him telling you that he is the God of the bible, that you don't know who's God you worship?
- Admit that you must question the voices in your head, even if they say they are the God of the bible?

(I'll update this to the first post)

LOL. Yep, we're in the Matrix. Well....nah. But I guess it's impossible to disprove, you know like the existence of God, so I'll have to accept that.

God HAS confirmed with me that he is the God of the bible. Through tongues and interpretation.

If you question every voice in your head then you question your own thoughts. When God speaks to me, it's in my own voice not somke mystical bellowing thunderous one.
 
That science is the only thing close to truth and any religous person is just living in a world of myth? Very long winded if that's what he was saying.

Not really what I was saying. I was saying that science is uncertain... but that lots of things are uncertain including all of reality. I ws saying that one can come to the logical conclusion that they can accept facts temporarily as long as they have no counter evidence. This is what we do with reality and it is the nature of the acceptance of science - no belief required and non given. It is not until one personally recieves word from God that the bible is right and science is wrong that there is a serious conflict between two pieces of evidence - at which point a judgement call must be made.
 
LOL. Yep, we're in the Matrix. Well....nah. But I guess it's impossible to disprove, you know like the existence of God, so I'll have to accept that.

So you accept the possibility that reality could be false and we're in the matrix... does that mean you don't have faith?

God HAS confirmed with me that he is the God of the bible. Through tongues and interpretation.

Ok. I haven't had the same experience but I can't prove otherwise for you so I'll have to take your word for it.

If you question every voice in your head then you question your own thoughts. When God speaks to me, it's in my own voice not somke mystical bellowing thunderous one.

But that voice could be a deception. If God can speak to you through your own voice, couldn't Satan? Or some other entity?
 
danoff
So you accept the possibility that reality could be false and we're in the matrix... does that mean you don't have faith?

Nope, I'm just going with your laws of what's "provable" and what's not. I don't for one second think that I'm "morpheus". But since it's impossible to prove otherwise, especially on an internet forum, I'll just concede that point.

Ok. I haven't had the same experience but I can't prove otherwise for you so I'll have to take your word for it.
Thanks! :)

But that voice could be a deception. If God can speak to you through your own voice, couldn't Satan? Or some other entity?
So could your mother's voice. What's your point? that's why it's up to you to validate what the voice is saying through the word of God. God will NEVER tell you anything that goes against the bible.
 
Nope, I'm just going with your laws of what's "provable" and what's not. I don't for one second think that I'm "morpheus". But since it's impossible to prove otherwise, especially on an internet forum, I'll just concede that point.

If you think that it is possible that we could be in the matrix - that it is possible that your experiences are deception - that it is possible that the voices in your head are deception and that you have had no experience with God... how can you not admit that possibility that God does not exist?

So could your mother's voice. What's your point? that's why it's up to you to validate what the voice is saying through the word of God. God will NEVER tell you anything that goes against the bible.

That's not reason to believe that the bible is correct. Perhaps there are other books God will never tell you anything that goes against. Perhaps the new harry potter book does not disagree with what God tells you. Does this mean that the Harry Potter book is correct? Have you checked every other religion to be ceratin that the voice you hear in your head isn't also consistent with those religions as well? Even if it is, couldn't it still be Satan, lulling you into confidence before he tells you to do something evil? Basically, what I'm saying is that even if the voice in your head is consistent with the Bible, that doesn't mean that it is God.
 
danoff
If you think that it is possible that we could be in the matrix - that it is possible that your experiences are deception - that it is possible that the voices in your head are deception and that you have had no experience with God... how can you not admit that possibility that God does not exist?

Just so you know, I don't confirm to your thoery and philosophy of what does and doesn't exist. I'm simply trying to play nice. :)

That's not reason to believe that the bible is correct. Perhaps there are other books God will never tell you anything that goes against. Perhaps the new harry potter book does not disagree with what God tells you. Does this mean that the Harry Potter book is correct? Have you checked every other religion to be ceratin that the voice you hear in your head isn't also consistent with those religions as well? Even if it is, couldn't it still be Satan, lulling you into confidence before he tells you to do something evil? Basically, what I'm saying is that even if the voice in your head is consistent with the Bible, that doesn't mean that it is God.

It's EVERY reason to believe the bible is correct. But if you don't, and haven't tried to, then that's on you. The funny part is you alway seem to want to quantify God. This is impossible by the very defintion of God.

Also, you're trying to get me to think that all this stuff that I believe is just bunk. Well, nope. For the reasons I've laid out.

But here's the thing, if there is Satan, then there IS a God. Because God created satan. So, you're basically proving the existance of God everytime you question how I validate my faith. Heh heh, validating faith, that's funny. Man, talk about an oxymoron. :dopey:
 
swift
Just so you know, I don't confirm to your thoery and philosophy of what does and doesn't exist. I'm simply trying to play nice

Don't play nice. You do me a disservice by playing nice. Give it to me straight, what do you think and why? I'd like to hear your answer to the question - I'll post it below.

danoff
If you think that it is possible that we could be in the matrix - that it is possible that your experiences are deception - that it is possible that the voices in your head are deception and that you have had no experience with God... how can you not admit that possibility that God does not exist?

It's EVERY reason to believe the bible is correct.

Except science, which gives you reason to believe that the earth is older than 6000 years, that the universe does not revovle around the Earth, that evolution has occured in the life forms on this planet... much of what the bible says has been challenged... so I wouldn't say you have every reason. Perhaps you have SOME reason, but not EVERY reason. Still, I'm challenging the SOME you claim to have.

But here's the thing, if there is Satan, then there IS a God. Because God created satan.
I don't see why it is the case that if there is an evil God, there must be a good God that created it. If Satan truly does exist as the bible says, and God created Satan... then you still have to admit that you might not have been talking to God all this time - it could be Satan tricking you.
 
danoff
Don't play nice. You do me a disservice by playing nice. Give it to me straight, what do you think and why? I'd like to hear your answer to the question - I'll post it below.

Ok, I don't believe all my experiences are deception. They are my experiences. As you stated earlier. All we know is our experiences. Where they come from does not decrease their validity. Like the people in the matrix, there experiences and memory were as real as possible. They were simply having the scenes for said memories and experiences laid out for them. That doesn't mean that they don't have "real" memories.

Except science, which gives you reason to believe that the earth is older than 6000 years, that the universe does not revovle around the Earth, that evolution has occured in the life forms on this planet... much of what the bible says has been challenged... so I wouldn't say you have every reason. Perhaps you have SOME reason, but not EVERY reason. Still, I'm challenging the SOME you claim to have.

I don't see why it is the case that if there is an evil God, there must be a good God that created it. If Satan truly does exist as the bible says, and God created Satan... then you still have to admit that you might not have been talking to God all this time - it could be Satan tricking you.

Is the earth older then 6000 years. Most certainly. I'm still trying to find the place where the bible says the earth revolves around the sun.

About the whole evil god thing. Man, you just really like that one don't you. God is Holy and pure. There are none equal to him. Satan, or Lucifer, was the second in command got full of pride and then was cast out of heaven along with a third of the angels. This is why there is a hell and why there are unclean spirits(demons) that can influence people. Satan doesn't have to power to MAKE me do anything. So, even if it was him tricking me, he can't keep it up for long for the sheer fact that what he says will be against what the bible says. Much like when he tempted Jesus after his fast.
 
As an aside to this conversation, which is intriguing in its own right, the bible actually has a lot of things 'right' when it comes to cosmology, biology, history and geography.

For example, it certainly never says that the Earth goes around the Sun (or should I say that I don't recall it saying that (I was about sixteen the last time I read it)) but does accurately speak of the existence of certain noteables and places with such precision that archaeologists have used it to great effect.

I have to dash off now but I'll try and contribute to this properly in a day or so when I get back from site.
 
For example, it certainly never says that the Earth goes around the Sun

I stand corrected. Here's the text.

whoever wrote Genesis
Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.

That's an earth centric view for sure, but it does not explicitly say that the Sun orbits the Earth. It says that the Earth is created, and then the Sun and stars are created. I suppose that it is possible that when God created the Earth, he created it at a certain velocity, so that when he created the sun - the Earth would be in orbit around the Sun.

So as I said, I stand corrected.

Ok, I don't believe all my experiences are deception. They are my experiences. As you stated earlier. All we know is our experiences. Where they come from does not decrease their validity. Like the people in the matrix, there experiences and memory were as real as possible. They were simply having the scenes for said memories and experiences laid out for them. That doesn't mean that they don't have "real" memories.

Its true that in the matrix, the people's memories were real, but their understanding of the memories was drastically altered. The people on the outside found out that they knew very little about their reality and the nature of their existance. When you're pursuing a basic truth, the fact that you cannot trust your own experiences and perceptions calls into question the very existance of both God and science. That doesn't both me, because I'd call science into question even if I did trust my perceptions - but that should both your since you're not supposed to question God's existance in either case.
 
danoff
Its true that in the matrix, the people's memories were real, but their understanding of the memories was drastically altered. The people on the outside found out that they knew very little about their reality and the nature of their existance. When you're pursuing a basic truth, the fact that you cannot trust your own experiences and perceptions calls into question the very existance of both God and science. That doesn't both me, because I'd call science into question even if I did trust my perceptions - but that should both your since you're not supposed to question God's existance in either case.

And you assume that there is sum sin in questioning God's existance. I questioned it many times when I was coming to know God. He revealed himself to me through many different ways. But I was always asking with an open mind. Not, "Send lightning down right now or I'm never going to believe you!" type of attitude.

Infact, to this day I don't understand all of God's plans and motives and never will. But much like your parents when you're young, you simply have to trust them because there understanding is far beyond yours.
 
And you assume that there is sum sin in questioning God's existance. I questioned it many times when I was coming to know God. He revealed himself to me through many different ways.

You're dodging or missing the point. When you say something like "he revealed himself to me" you have to question the very nature of that revelation. I never said that there was anything wrong with questioning God's existance, but if you don't believe wholly that God exists, then you can't go to Heaven am I right?

But how can you believe that God exists when you can't even necessarily believe you own senses?

This wasn't really the purpose of this thread - to convince you that having faith in God is irrational. I think you know that your belief in God is irrational. Sure you have your experiences that you don't understand that nature of, and you have the bible which says it is so. But you also have questions about your existance, perceptions, and the scientific evidence that confronts what the bible asserts. I think you know quite well that God's existance cannot be proven... or even proven likely. It requires faith to be religious. It requires a leap of faith to believe in God. A leap of faith that I have hopefully shown you is not required to accept science as humanity's best efforts at understanding our reality.

I'll further postulate, however, that you took your leap of faith because you wanted it to be true. Religion holds an easy answer to life. Do good and believe and ye shall be rewarded. Justice wil be done in the end. Death is not an end but a beginning. The lord works in mysterious ways. We must pray to help those in need. These are all very comforting notions and I believe that they hold the key to answer the "WHY?" that so many people ask when it comes to religion. These are why people choose to take a leap of faith. These are why people link unrelated events and derive a common religious cause to them. These comforting notions simplify the universe into a human centric - soul centric conept that puts the individual in a light of importance. Religion gives people purpose, it gives people comfort, it gives them simple understanding - all to confront a reality without real purpose, without comfort and without easy answers.
 
I believe in God, but I do question his existence couple of times a year or so. I'm not making this up. :lol: Last time I questioned it was in May or June, on the way home from work. Frickin' rainstorm hit out of nowhere. By the time I got home, it had turned into a thunderstorm! It was just coincedence, but scared the crap out of me. :D

On the matrix thing, I have somewhat similar, but unique idea. danoff is quesioning the reality of the world we live in. If the bible is correct, this world, life we live does not really matter that much. Actually, it's more of an test, than a "real" life. Your real life begins, when you start living in Heaven/Heaven on earth(whichever you belive) with your newly acquired eternal life.
 
Danoff, honestly. I'm really done. I mean I tried to play it by your rules and you still said it wasn't cool. Believe what you want.

Thinking that everything is deception except my thoughts, that could EASILY be deception, is a rather arduous way to go on living. I've seen more then my share of proof of God in my life. If you haven't then that truly is too bad.

danoff
I'll further postulate, however, that you took your leap of faith because you wanted it to be true. Religion holds an easy answer to life. Do good and believe and ye shall be rewarded. Justice wil be done in the end. Death is not an end but a beginning. The lord works in mysterious ways. We must pray to help those in need. These are all very comforting notions and I believe that they hold the key to answer the "WHY?" that so many people ask when it comes to religion. These are why people choose to take a leap of faith. These are why people link unrelated events and derive a common religious cause to them. These comforting notions simplify the universe into a human centric - soul centric conept that puts the individual in a light of importance.

I've got to hit this one though. I don't believe that if I'm good then good things happen. Jesus was perfect and he was crucified. Many of other people that were much "better" people then I were tortured and killed for their faith. So I don't for one second think that being a Christian get's me the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I'm not living in a fantasy world where, "I do what God says and I'll be rich and famous someday" of even "I do what God says and nothing bad will happen" I have to live in the same world that you do. The difference is my point of view and peace of mind that I've accepted from Christ and you choose to reject.

Religion gives people purpose, it gives people comfort, it gives them simple understanding - all to confront a reality without real purpose, without comfort and without easy answers.

Religion gives me nothing but headaches. God gives me purpose and there is a world of difference. The amount of lives that have been lost for "religion" is stagering when all three major religions of the world claim a common ancestor. Jews, Christians and Muslims all claim Abraham as their ancestor. So there is literally a family feud going on just because of religion. 👎
 
Back