Confederate Flag

[MoparMan69]

With the news going around bout the US congress removing the flag and a few stores to stop selling them and the man who caused it all. Lets talk about that, see i own a confederate flag thankfully and i do attach to the bed of my truck. Before you ask no i do not support slavery. But anyway whats your opinion on the issue?

 

[Grayfox]

A flag is a flag.

Just because someone used it to promote hate does not make it bad.

Nazi germany used the swastika but that does not mean the swastika is bad since it has been used for other things before nazi germany.
But these days the when people see it, they see it they will see it as the nazi symbol unless they know otherwise.

 

[Parker]

Your signature makes me laugh and shake my head at the same time. The stereotypical "rebel flag" owner is someone just like that.

Anywho, I couldn't care less about the flag. People get offended over nothing these days.

 

[Dotini]

With the news going around bout the US congress removing the flag and a few stores to stop selling them and the man who caused it all. Lets talk about that, see i own a confederate flag thankfully and i do attach to the bed of my truck. Before you ask no i do not support slavery. But anyway whats your opinion on the issue?

I see you are from Texas, yes?

I was born and raised in Texas, starting when Truman was in his first term, and people were still griping about the Civil War and valorizing lost heroes. I've seen a lot of Confederate flags but never owned one.

In more recent years decades living in liberal Seattle, I've seen the stars and bars employed more as a symbol of general youthful rebellion than as a symbol of "the South shall rise again!" or any overt racism.

My advice is to quietly fold it away before somebody rips it off or otherwise victimizes you when you least need it.

 

[Formula1269]

It's been a good week for long overdue change in the slow to change U.S. Anyway, if you guys from the "South" want to own and/or display a confederate flag that's your own poor choice. However, the flag should not be displayed nor supported by any local, state or federal government in the United States. The confederate flag represents a time when African Americans were bound to slavery. i.e. not good times.

 

[ECGadget]

At the end of a day a flag is just a flag. However, one really should think about what the flag can represent when they choose to display it. Not because of their intentions but to understand how it could be perceived and thus to clarify its use.

An example close to me:

I wear England football tops because I support the national team. These have the St Georges Cross on them which is commonly associated with the Crusades. Do I support the Crusades? No. Do I support the England football team? Heck yeah (as such I have nothing to celebrate about). All about why I use the flag as it is

 

[KSaiyu]

I'll post this from the other thread:

I was having a great chat with a black guy I've known for years about recent events and he can't understand what's going on. Yes, the Confederate flag was used as a banner for the South who fought for slavery but he never associated it with that (slavery). The guy grew up in Virginia and went to a school named after a Confederate general but somehow managed to escape unscathed. We call each other ****** because we both understand what it means and are comfortable using it, and are equally comfortable when it is used in the right context. He said if a white guy came up to him apologising for what he'd done to his ancestors he would punch him and tell him that he doesn't go around telling animals he's sorry for eating their relatives.

Just before he was giving his opinion on all this his power cut and myself and the other guy (who was white) joked that "they got to him". Sadly I'm worried of a future where this will become a lot less funny.

 

[Dennisch]

apologising for what he'd done to his ancestors

That's one of the dumbest things the PC crowd invented.

 

[Crispy]

I fully support removing that flag from government buildings. To me, flying the flag from a capitol building is supporting the ideas the flag symbolizes, which is slavery and treason.

Not everyone who flies the Confederate flag is a racist, slavery supporting, rebel. I will say the majority are. This is just anecdotal but most of the people who wear Confederate belt buckles or fly Confederate flags from their pickup trucks, also believe that n:censored:r is the appropriate term for a black person. Similarly, if you wear clothing with a weed leaf on it, chances are the most valuable thing you do is smoke weed. Again this is just anecdotal, and again it is not all. One person I know has a confederate flag license plate for his Trans Am that he just bought. That dude ain't racist.

At the end of the day a flag is still a symbol. It is meant to stand for something. The swastika represents God in some cultures, and in others symbolized the master Aryan race and the values it held. The Confederate flag represented the ideas of the Confederate States of America, which believed in slavery, but also separation from the federal government. Flying a Confederate flag is no different than flying a Nazi flag. I would be willing to bet that many fly the flag because they don't believe in everything the federal government stands for. A lot also hate black people.

I think getting rid of all items with the flag on it is silly, although I also recognize that it is the right of the private business to do so, and I also see that it is an easy sales boost that will likely return to normal by the end of the year. I also think it is incredibly wrong to even toy with the idea of removing the Confederate flag from museums. Regardless of what it stood for, it is still history. I support your right to fly the Confederate flag just as I support your right to fly the Nazi flag. I think it is social suicide, and alienates you to a certain group of people. However if that is what you choose, then who am I to say otherwise?

 

[MoparMan69]

Update: Warner bros have now pulled the show Dukes Of Hazard. Why just now did they need to remove it just because one person. I think this is a possible set up by the government to get this removed. But its kinda taking it to far if just one person ruined it for all of us.

 

[Slash]

I will fly it till the day I die.

 

[MoparMan69]

i am starting to think tje government is behind this, like doesnt make sense why was it because one person used it in the wrong way ruin it for all of us? The amazon staff are saying the government ordered them to stop selling them also ebay.

 

[A2K78]

As someone who happen to be black, I don't understand the whole hysteria surround the flag this considering the fact that the flag being protested is technically not the real flag of the confederate states of america, but in reality just a military flag.

overall the hysteria to me just prove how uneducated the average american is about their history, the confederate states of america, and "war among the states"(I'm not calling it a civil war because it technically was not a civil war).

I fully support removing that flag from government buildings. To me, flying the flag from a capitol building is supporting the ideas the flag symbolizes, which is slavery and treason.

Treason? How much do you even know about the american constitution let alone history, this when you consider the fact under the constitution a state had the "right" secede. The real treason IMO was committed by dishonest Abe and his band of cohorts.

Another thing, how could a military flag become an object/symbol of slavery, this when you consider the fact many blacks actually fought on the side of the confederate states of america. Don't even get me started on the many blacks like william ellison who owned slaves.

now if you really want to see a flag(or flags) that symbolize some of the worst in human history, then the union jack or american flag are better candidates.

 

[DK]

I'm sorry, I won't shed a tear that a flag that was used by Strom Thrummond and his pro-segregation Dixiecrats is being removed from government buildings.

 

[PeterJB]

My neighbour has one up in the back garden. I live in a council estate in the West Country.

 

[Northstar]

The amazon staff are saying the government ordered them to stop selling them also ebay.

I'm not going to flat-out say it's not true, but I have a hard time believing anything a customer service employee says when it comes to company policy as they usually know next to nothing. Plus, it's not that hard to photoshop a chat box.

 

[Crispy]

Another thing, how could a military flag become an object/symbol of slavery, this when you consider the fact many blacks actually fought on the side of the confederate states of america. Don't even get me started on the many blacks like william ellison who owned slaves.

Well generally if you own another human being as a slave, it is slavery. Doesn't matter what the color of the skin is.

 

[Rage Racer]

Yes, the Confederate flag was used as a banner for the South who fought for slavery

It would be wrong to say that the American Civil War was all about slavery.

 

[Formula1269]

I will fly it till the day I die.


View attachment 398503

Classy.

 

[Adamgp]

I'm sorry, I won't shed a tear that a flag that was used by Strom Thrummond and his pro-segregation Dixiecrats is being removed from government buildings.

It was used by Clinton/Gore campaign in '92 as well:

It's just a flag to me. I don't own one nor am I offended by it. It's not even the official Confederate flag, it's the battle flag.

I find it funny that the 1:18 scale General Lee diecast I bought years ago for ~$9 is now worth ~$100+.

 

[Minty]

Much like Che Guevara and Guy Fawkes, the symbol's meaning has changed over the course of history. It's illogical and weird, but society is rarely every a shining example of logic. A symbol isn't inherently evil or good, it's entirely what individual people choose to see it as, and for most of those who fly it, it's a symbol of individualism and independence. If anything, clinging to the old meanings of a symbol and totally disregarding other people's interpretation seems like exactly the kind of ignorance people are so worried about. Granted, the Gadsden Flag would make a better choice, but lately it seems like people are only offended by a symbol because they choose to be. I mean, few flags symbolize individualism and independence better than the Gadsden Flag:

(As long as you're okay with the occasional person thinking it's the "Tea Party Flag")

Getting rid of it on Government buildings makes sense, because there's really only one meaning that symbol carries in regards to politics, and that meaning is lost on states that rely on the US Government, but for individual use it takes on a different meaning, and I really don't see a problem with that.

 

[KSaiyu]

It would be wrong to say that the American Civil War was all about slavery.

Should have said "amongst other things"

 

[McLaren]

I fully support removing that flag from government buildings. To me, flying the flag from a capitol building is supporting the ideas the flag symbolizes, which is slavery and treason.

Except it doesn't. The flag was not even recognized as the Confederacy's national flag at any point.

Not everyone who flies the Confederate flag is a racist, slavery supporting, rebel. I will say the majority are. This is just anecdotal but most of the people who wear Confederate belt buckles or fly Confederate flags from their pickup trucks, also believe that n:censored:r is the appropriate term for a black person. Similarly, if you wear clothing with a weed leaf on it, chances are the most valuable thing you do is smoke weed. Again this is just anecdotal, and again it is not all. One person I know has a confederate flag license plate for his Trans Am that he just bought. That dude ain't racist.

I highly doubt you can prove that at all.

At the end of the day a flag is still a symbol. It is meant to stand for something. The swastika represents God in some cultures, and in others symbolized the master Aryan race and the values it held. The Confederate flag represented the ideas of the Confederate States of America, which believed in slavery, but also separation from the federal government. Flying a Confederate flag is no different than flying a Nazi flag. I would be willing to bet that many fly the flag because they don't believe in everything the federal government stands for. A lot also hate black people.

The Confederate Flag was never an official flag of the Confederacy; Stars & Bars, Stainless Banner, & Blood-stained Banner represented the Confederacy. The flag that caused all this controversy was a battle flag carried by some of Lee's armies.

You realize for a second that abolishing slavery or civil rights was not even a goal for the North, right? Tensions grew over economic & political differences. They weren't upset some man in the south owned black people.

 

[KSaiyu]

And this is the danger of trying to cover up history. A line from my first post

Yes, the Confederate flag was used as a banner for the South who fought for slavery

has already been proven wrong on two counts. I didn't bother to research the veracity of these "facts" because I just knew them to be true, because of the half truths I'd been fed and the backlash and subsequent actions the flag has recently generated.

 

[Joel]

It's kinda misleading to say the civil war was actually about political and economic differences rather than slavery if by and large those political and economic difference stemmed from slavery. If we want to get realpolitik about it we could argue that the elite in the South probably didn't believe slavery was morally righteous but were only looking out for their self interest. That doesn't mean the war wasn't fought to uphold slavery, and it doesn't make the cause of the Confederacy any more legitimate.

I can buy that states' rights were a factor, but it certainly appears that the right to own slaves was the biggest one. No, it's not as simple as the great and noble Abraham Lincoln swooping in to free the slaves, but it seems pretty dubious to call the Civil War "not about slavery" when abolishing slavery in the South would instantly cause wealth equal to half of the Confederate GDP to vanish. I'm sure the average soldier in the Confederate militaries felt he was defending his home from invaders rather than defending slavery, but that doesn't change the fact that the institution of slavery underpinned the entire economy of the South and the war was fought to protect that institution. The fact that the war wasn't fought by the North to free the slaves does not mean that the South didn't fight to uphold slavery.

The agricultural economy in the south relied on slave labour while the northern economy became more industrialized and grew through immigration and the higher value of industry. The North became more and more powerful economically and thus politically, and Southerners became afraid of the idea that eventually the federal power centered in the North would be used to abolish slavery which would destroy the South's economy. The South was beginning to industrialize, but they were so far behind the North and with a smaller population (and far less immigration) had no chance of competing with the North's economy by industrializing.

It can't be stated enough how crucial slavery was to the South's economy, it's true that only a small percentage of wealthy people owned any slaves, and even fewer owned dozens or hundreds of slaves, but the wealth tied up in the slave trade and the agriculture which was made economical through slave labour underpinned the entire economy. Estimates of the value of slaves at the time is around 3.5-4 billion dollars in 1860 money, which is around 80 billion dollars today. We also have to consider the massive increases in real wealth since then. The most important number is that in 1860, the value of slaves represented about half of the South's GDP. Imagine if Obama were to go on TV tomorrow and call for the destruction of $7.5 trillion in property, which was 50% of GDP in 2011.

 

[Crispy]

I highly doubt you can prove that at all.

Hence the "it's just anecdotal" part.

The Confederate Flag was never an official flag of the Confederacy; Stars & Bars, Stainless Banner, & Blood-stained Banner represented the Confederacy. The flag that caused all this controversy was a battle flag carried by some of Lee's armies.

Does a battle flag carry no meaning? It still stands for the Confederacy's ideas, otherwise there would be zero point to it.

You realize for a second that abolishing slavery or civil rights was not even a goal for the North, right? Tensions grew over economic & political differences. They weren't upset some man in the south owned black people.

Economic and political ideals because of slavery. Pretending the Civil War wasn't about slavery in the grand scheme of things is silly.

The flag belongs nowhere outside of historical settings or private property. The flag represents the ideas of the Confederacy, that is the whole point of a flag. Just cause you fly the flag doesn't mean you are a racist. Many people do fly the flag as a form of heritage and not hate. Many people also fly the flag because they hate black people. I'm sure you'll find someone out there who flies the flag because they think it looks cool.

 

[McLaren]

Does a battle flag carry no meaning? It still stands for the Confederacy's ideas, otherwise there would be zero point to it

Not the meaning you believe it does. In fact, the Confederacy originally rejected it.

William Miles only pitched the flag's design again when it became apparent that "Stars & Bars" & "Stars & Stripes" were too similar on the battlefield for commanders to observe the areas, because it was easier to recognize as their own. Thus, the Confederate Flag became a symbol of the south's military, not its ideas. Because it boosted morale & became the fighting colors for the south, it is still technically the Battle Flag of the Army of North Virginia, not the Confederate States of America flag. It does not stand for the Confederacy's ideas, it stands for war. Henceforth, why some US troops used the flag to represent their southern pride during WWII & why the USS Columbia flew the flag in Pacific.

The 2nd & 3rd flags adopted the Battle Flag into their design only because of it what it did for the troops, again, not because it represented the Confederacy's ideas. Had Lee's armies failed, the flag would have faded into nothing.

Economic and political ideals because of slavery. Pretending the Civil War wasn't about slavery in the grand scheme of things is silly.

I never said it wasn't. But, it was not started solely because some men owned slaves & the North wanted to free them. There was more going on than just that.

The flag belongs nowhere outside of historical settings or private property. The flag represents the ideas of the Confederacy, that is the whole point of a flag. Just cause you fly the flag doesn't mean you are a racist. Many people do fly the flag as a form of heritage and not hate. Many people also fly the flag because they hate black people. I'm sure you'll find someone out there who flies the flag because they think it looks cool.

Not in this case because you failed to learn the history of it. If it represented the ideas of the Confederacy, they would not have rejected it when it was originally pitched & instead opt for something that looks so eerily similar to our current flag because they did not want to abandon the US altogether.

But you won't find people lobbying to have this flag removed from stores.

I'd also be more inclined to believe it's flown more by folks as a symbol of anti-government (since it's heavily associated with rednecks) than folks who fly it because they hate black people.

 

[Lucas]

It's a shame because it is actually a pretty cool flag IMO, like that of UK. Wear the latter here in Argentina, and everyone will go nuts over you...

 

[Joey D]

The flag doesn't offend me, however I do think it's in poor taste as it's become to be known as a symbol of racism. I also think it represents a rather dark period in the US's history since it was battle flag during a time when our country was divided over slavery (among other things). Sure it wasn't the official flag of the confederacy, but over time it's been so strongly associated with it that's what a majority of people see it as.

I personally don't care if someone wishes to fly it on their own property, it's their right to, but it doesn't belong on a government building. The only flags that should ever be on a government building are the US flag, the state's flag, and a city flag (if there is one).

Also based on my experiences, people I've met who have been a strong supporter of the flag have represented a lot of things I don't agree with, mainly ultra-conservative views with mixed in bigotry. Those people are of course entitled to their beliefs, but at the same time I believe I'm entitled to think they are mostly terrible people.

 

[A2K78]

It's kinda misleading to say the civil war was actually about political and economic differences rather than slavery if by and large those political and economic difference stemmed from slavery. If we want to get realpolitik about it we could argue that the elite in the South probably didn't believe slavery was morally righteous but were only looking out for their self interest. That doesn't mean the war wasn't fought to uphold slavery, and it doesn't make the cause of the Confederacy any more legitimate.

I can buy that states' rights were a factor, but it certainly appears that the right to own slaves was the biggest one. No, it's not as simple as the great and noble Abraham Lincoln swooping in to free the slaves, but it seems pretty dubious to call the Civil War "not about slavery" when abolishing slavery in the South would instantly cause wealth equal to half of the Confederate GDP to vanish. I'm sure the average soldier in the Confederate militaries felt he was defending his home from invaders rather than defending slavery, but that doesn't change the fact that the institution of slavery underpinned the entire economy of the South and the war was fought to protect that institution. The fact that the war wasn't fought by the North to free the slaves does not mean that the South didn't fight to uphold slavery.

The agricultural economy in the south relied on slave labour while the northern economy became more industrialized and grew through immigration and the higher value of industry. The North became more and more powerful economically and thus politically, and Southerners became afraid of the idea that eventually the federal power centered in the North would be used to abolish slavery which would destroy the South's economy. The South was beginning to industrialize, but they were so far behind the North and with a smaller population (and far less immigration) had no chance of competing with the North's economy by industrializing.

It can't be stated enough how crucial slavery was to the South's economy, it's true that only a small percentage of wealthy people owned any slaves, and even fewer owned dozens or hundreds of slaves, but the wealth tied up in the slave trade and the agriculture which was made economical through slave labour underpinned the entire economy. Estimates of the value of slaves at the time is around 3.5-4 billion dollars in 1860 money, which is around 80 billion dollars today. We also have to consider the massive increases in real wealth since then. The most important number is that in 1860, the value of slaves represented about half of the South's GDP. Imagine if Obama were to go on TV tomorrow and call for the destruction of $7.5 trillion in property, which was 50% of GDP in 2011.

You should read the writings of Thomas J Woods, Robert P Murphy, Thomas De Lorenzo and importantly Walter E Williams. Why? Not only are these guys economist,but historians who would completely destroy your argument on the subject of slavery and its economic history of the south post, during and after the war among the states.