Controllers Vs Wheels, what exactly is the issue?

[HarambeRacing]

Hey all,

I don't want this to turn into some kind of debate over the wheel being an advantage over the controllers, because then some wheel users feel slighted & like their ability is being questioned.

Instead I am looking for some reasonable answers on what exactly the issue is with controllers.

It's pretty obvious at this point that controllers are suffering from massive understeer, especially in hairpins & it's costing users bundles of time on MOST circuits.
Also, did they restrict the use of the handbrake in Sport Mode/FIA recently? There was a way to utilise the handbrake slightly to help with understeer in hairpins for controller users, but it doesn't seem to be working now.

Anyway, I'd like to just gather info or understanding on why it seems to be so difficult on controller to compete.

I am currently A+/S but the caveat is that I got most of that rank at Monza. Monza is a unique circuit that for whatever reason controllers can really be competitive at, more so than usual. I have another friend who uses controller (he's also A+/S) & at Monza a few weeks back, we were both in the 1:46.6-8 range for our qualifying, & competing in the top splits finishing top 3 most races. The only time we'd struggle to finish top 3 was when the elite top streamers came in, but even then we snagged a few wins away from them with the slipstream or just pressure & mistakes.

Our times were pretty competitive at Monza, maybe a few tenths away from the top guys, & possibly under 1 second away from the very top time?

But Monza is a unique circuit & I don't get many situations where there's tonnes of understeer plus there's no hairpin.

Fast forward to today, at Suzuka I can BARELY get under 2:00 in the Genesis & my friend is currently at a 2:00.4. We are currently about 3 seconds or more away from the top time, & I don't have much hope that we can even get below 1:59.5

Both our sensitivity is at +10, & we both have all assists off, manual gears only ABS default. The understeer we're getting in that first sector is unbelievable.

I know we're not the best, but we're not scrubs either, I do believe we'd be in the top 100 for controller users across the game (not including the elite guys that are simply fast on both obviously). & I know there's one guy that always performs really well on controller.

But it's pretty obvious that the majority of controller users are suffering especially compared to GT Sport. On GT Sport I was somewhat competitive at Suzuka, definitely never 3 seconds away from the top times.

So what's different?
What is causing it to feel like I'm driving a boat at most circuits that have hairpins or difficult corners that bring out understeer.
& why are wheel users able to pull out such a huge time advantage at circuits that aren't Monza? Is it because of the increased steering angle?

I'd love to get as much info as I can because I just want to be able to compete at most circuits... At Monza I'm A+ level competing against other top guys... So many of these other circuits I'm struggling to compete with wheel users that are High B or low A rated ( On my alt I'm Low A because I haven't had a Monza run yet).

I've been a lifelong F1 fan, & played GT since GT3 A Spec, so it's not like I don't know these circuits, or watch the replays to improve. Something just doesn't feel right on controller, & I haven't been able to pinpoint it.

 

[Delta795]

Wheels can be much more precise - when you move your stick left or right on a controller it's mimicking the wheel, normally turning much more than what a wheel user can do in same amount of time.

Same with braking and accelerating although PS5 controller has shortened that gap quite a bit.

That's really it. I know fast racers on both, but the more consistently fast racers are on wheels.

Fyi there are advantages to a controller at times too. Drifting, recovering from a spin etc..

 

[mwoodski]

It's because the controller inputs on this game are more akin to PC titles where when you put the stick all the way to the side it's turning the wheels to full lock. It's nowhere near as quick as most PC titles but that's what it's doing. That and the centering when you come off the stick is done really quickly.

You're effectively turning the wheels past the point they need to be at so you're just scrubbing them and the car won't turn because of it.

That's why in replays if you move the stick back and forth a bit to straighten the car it looks super jerky.

 

[Hobson]

Hey all,

I don't want this to turn into some kind of debate over the wheel being an advantage over the controllers, because then some wheel users feel slighted & like their ability is being questioned.

Instead I am looking for some reasonable answers on what exactly the issue is with controllers.

It's pretty obvious at this point that controllers are suffering from massive understeer, especially in hairpins & it's costing users bundles of time on MOST circuits.
Also, did they restrict the use of the handbrake in Sport Mode/FIA recently? There was a way to utilise the handbrake slightly to help with understeer in hairpins for controller users, but it doesn't seem to be working now.

Anyway, I'd like to just gather info or understanding on why it seems to be so difficult on controller to compete.

I am currently A+/S but the caveat is that I got most of that rank at Monza. Monza is a unique circuit that for whatever reason controllers can really be competitive at, more so than usual. I have another friend who uses controller (he's also A+/S) & at Monza a few weeks back, we were both in the 1:46.6-8 range for our qualifying, & competing in the top splits finishing top 3 most races. The only time we'd struggle to finish top 3 was when the elite top streamers came in, but even then we snagged a few wins away from them with the slipstream or just pressure & mistakes.

Our times were pretty competitive at Monza, maybe a few tenths away from the top guys, & possibly under 1 second away from the very top time?

But Monza is a unique circuit & I don't get many situations where there's tonnes of understeer plus there's no hairpin.

Fast forward to today, at Suzuka I can BARELY get under 2:00 in the Genesis & my friend is currently at a 2:00.4. We are currently about 3 seconds or more away from the top time, & I don't have much hope that we can even get below 1:59.5

Both our sensitivity is at +10, & we both have all assists off, manual gears only ABS default. The understeer we're getting in that first sector is unbelievable.

I know we're not the best, but we're not scrubs either, I do believe we'd be in the top 100 for controller users across the game (not including the elite guys that are simply fast on both obviously). & I know there's one guy that always performs really well on controller.

But it's pretty obvious that the majority of controller users are suffering especially compared to GT Sport. On GT Sport I was somewhat competitive at Suzuka, definitely never 3 seconds away from the top times.

So what's different?
What is causing it to feel like I'm driving a boat at most circuits that have hairpins or difficult corners that bring out understeer.
& why are wheel users able to pull out such a huge time advantage at circuits that aren't Monza? Is it because of the increased steering angle?

I'd love to get as much info as I can because I just want to be able to compete at most circuits... At Monza I'm A+ level competing against other top guys... So many of these other circuits I'm struggling to compete with wheel users that are High B or low A rated ( On my alt I'm Low A because I haven't had a Monza run yet).

I've been a lifelong F1 fan, & played GT since GT3 A Spec, so it's not like I don't know these circuits, or watch the replays to improve. Something just doesn't feel right on controller, & I haven't been able to pinpoint it.

I'm going through the same exact thing and haven't met any other A+/S controller drivers since GTS. Can I send you a friend request?

I'll paste my findings here from the other thread word for word.

"I'd be interested in this also because we don't have a way of testing whether a controller and a steering wheel have the same performance in a controlled environment. Without scientific testing it ends up being a mess like the physics thread is sometimes.
Watching replays, asking my friends with wheels and controllers to replicate replays and the S-bend at Suzuka after 130R a hundred times, I've kinda figured how to explain my issue with the state of controller steering vs wheel steering.
It's the slowness/increasing filtered steering at the last degrees of steering lock that keep the controller from being competitive with wheel users at the highest levels. It's frustrating because it makes hairpins, tight S-bends and bowls/banks impossible to late apex/ride the apex without losing severe entry/exit speed because of understeer.
10 Sensitivity doesn't help either, which is the most confusing part."

 

[Merio_10]

I played GT sport with a controller since day 1 until GT7 was finally released. I was pretty damn good at it, never had any issues with the controller. Now compared to the wheel GT DD Pro (Clubsport RS Wheel) the wheel is certainly more precise. You have more control of the vehicle when oversteering and making corrections when necessary. Controller on the other hand is overly sensitive in terms of steering sensitivity. Feels like you're handling a go kart at all times... which isn't a bad thing but you get the idea. Same goes for the throttle as well as the braking.

 

[Hobson]

It's because the controller inputs on this game are more akin to PC titles where when you put the stick all the way to the side it's turning the wheels to full lock. It's nowhere near as quick as most PC titles but that's what it's doing. That and the centering when you come off the stick is done really quickly.

You're effectively turning the wheels past the point they need to be at so you're just scrubbing them and the car won't turn because of it.

That's why in replays if you move the stick back and forth a bit to straighten the car it looks super jerky.

If the steering was more like PC titles where full lock or full steering left/right actually meant full lock, then why is there massive amount of understeer on every hairpin/semi circle corner?

I feel like we would have noticed that and came off of the steering to gain the improvement in turning.

That phenomenon was apparent in every GT game for wheel users in the past, but controller users can't turn to the point of scrubbing tires like older GT titles.

 

[tiberiusteng]

When using controllers your steering command (stick input) is almost always over the angle where the front wheels would lose grip, and while you can disable "counter steering" the game is still trying to prevent you from completely lost control (go beyond where your wheel would lose grip), that is, if you throw stick to extreme, the game will turn to "the extreme where your front wheels still have grip", so perhaps you can try brake a little more.

Also consider try turning down LSD setting if they are high (that mean if you are accelerating/braking during turn you'll understeer).

Tune LSD to minimum, drive to a turn, hold your steering stick at extreme, and experiment with fuel/brake, you should see the radius increases when you accelerating, and decreases when you braking. In a sense when using a controller you have an always-on driving aid that can't be turned off, that is almost cheating ...

 

[xMAXIx79]

I don't see the problem as big as it is described here. I've had to drive with a controller for 3 weeks.. I didn't manage anything at first... now it's going so slowly, but it requires immensely more practice and much more sensitivity.. What I noticed was that I had a controller on the Nürburgring massive problems staying in the line in the carousel, as if the steering wasn't turning far enough there. However, last week in Yamagiwa I had no problems in this regard. Just the 100% right steering angle and at the same time dosing the brakes perfectly is very difficult for me and always a challenge. It requires 200% more concentration for me than driving with a steering wheel.

Yesterday and the day before yesterday I improved some of my CE sector times all with the pad... and I don't think I'm significantly slower than cyclists there... but again... it's a lot harder to push the limit like that.




I have marked my improved times with gamepad.

 

[Hobson]

I don't see the problem as big as it is described here. I've had to drive with a controller for 3 weeks.. I didn't manage anything at first... now it's going so slowly, but it requires immensely more practice and much more sensitivity.. What I noticed was that I had a controller on the Nürburgring massive problems staying in the line in the carousel, as if the steering wasn't turning far enough there. However, last week in Yamagiwa I had no problems in this regard. Just the 100% right steering angle and at the same time dosing the brakes perfectly is very difficult for me and always a challenge. It requires 200% more concentration for me than driving with a steering wheel.

Yesterday and the day before yesterday I improved some of my CE sector times all with the pad... and I don't think I'm significantly slower than cyclists there... but again... it's a lot harder to push the limit like that.




I have marked my improved times with gamepad.

I think the problem is only turning out to be an issue with controller users who are running on the limit in terms of speed, I don't have the issue we're talking about when going through corners under the limit, just when on/trying to maintain the limit or go over.

Slowing down, turning assists on and not shooting for maximum attack would fix the issue 100%. But trying to get top 10/top split like alot of controller users have done consistently in previous games (GT5-GTS) is a gargantuan task.

Don't get me wrong it shouldn't be easy/easier but the times are currently impossible to achieve when it requires precision/speed on the limit, it's just not in the cards for controller users.

 

[Raceface1959]

I use both G29 and controller equally well. I find that, for me, the controller can sometimes offer sharper turn in than my wheel. However this does vary greatly with the camera view used. I find impossible levels of understeer in chase cam, a fair bit of understeer in roof/ bonnet cam, a touch of understeer mixed with oversteer in cockpit view, and pure perfection in bumper gauge view. I was really impressed by the performance of a controller in GT7, and used it for every licence test and all rally events. What I discovered in games such as Dirt Rally 2.0 and WRC 9 or 10, is that the opposite was true. I could make up obscene amounts of time with a wheel over a controller on hairpins and #2 corners, especially Monte Carlo rallies.

 

[benjoi84]

Daily Race C this week has reminded me exactly why it's difficult for controller users to compete. It's not raw pace, it's the tyre wear factor. It's a lot, lot more difficult to preserve tyres using a gamepad.

Any time I've tried to modify my technique, I've usually just ended up upsetting my rhythm and going slower...or straight up crashing.

 

[xMAXIx79]

Hey all,

I don't want this to turn into some kind of debate over the wheel being an advantage over the controllers, because then some wheel users feel slighted & like their ability is being questioned.

Instead I am looking for some reasonable answers on what exactly the issue is with controllers.

It's pretty obvious at this point that controllers are suffering from massive understeer, especially in hairpins & it's costing users bundles of time on MOST circuits.
Also, did they restrict the use of the handbrake in Sport Mode/FIA recently? There was a way to utilise the handbrake slightly to help with understeer in hairpins for controller users, but it doesn't seem to be working now.

Anyway, I'd like to just gather info or understanding on why it seems to be so difficult on controller to compete.

I am currently A+/S but the caveat is that I got most of that rank at Monza. Monza is a unique circuit that for whatever reason controllers can really be competitive at, more so than usual. I have another friend who uses controller (he's also A+/S) & at Monza a few weeks back, we were both in the 1:46.6-8 range for our qualifying, & competing in the top splits finishing top 3 most races. The only time we'd struggle to finish top 3 was when the elite top streamers came in, but even then we snagged a few wins away from them with the slipstream or just pressure & mistakes.

Our times were pretty competitive at Monza, maybe a few tenths away from the top guys, & possibly under 1 second away from the very top time?

But Monza is a unique circuit & I don't get many situations where there's tonnes of understeer plus there's no hairpin.

Fast forward to today, at Suzuka I can BARELY get under 2:00 in the Genesis & my friend is currently at a 2:00.4. We are currently about 3 seconds or more away from the top time, & I don't have much hope that we can even get below 1:59.5

Both our sensitivity is at +10, & we both have all assists off, manual gears only ABS default. The understeer we're getting in that first sector is unbelievable.

I know we're not the best, but we're not scrubs either, I do believe we'd be in the top 100 for controller users across the game (not including the elite guys that are simply fast on both obviously). & I know there's one guy that always performs really well on controller.

But it's pretty obvious that the majority of controller users are suffering especially compared to GT Sport. On GT Sport I was somewhat competitive at Suzuka, definitely never 3 seconds away from the top times.

So what's different?
What is causing it to feel like I'm driving a boat at most circuits that have hairpins or difficult corners that bring out understeer.
& why are wheel users able to pull out such a huge time advantage at circuits that aren't Monza? Is it because of the increased steering angle?

I'd love to get as much info as I can because I just want to be able to compete at most circuits... At Monza I'm A+ level competing against other top guys... So many of these other circuits I'm struggling to compete with wheel users that are High B or low A rated ( On my alt I'm Low A because I haven't had a Monza run yet).

I've been a lifelong F1 fan, & played GT since GT3 A Spec, so it's not like I don't know these circuits, or watch the replays to improve. Something just doesn't feel right on controller, & I haven't been able to pinpoint it.

First of all, I do NOT want to ridicule you or anything like that, but I just drove my first laps in Suzuka, firstly to have some time AND to check what you are talking about. I did these laps in the Jaguar, I don't know if it's superior to the Hyundai you mentioned and that's why I'm quite fast at the times you mentioned, or if there are other reasons for that. I haven't looked at the current rankings there. My observation is more.. Yes there is, but that depends on the player's input.. As you can see from my laps, I'm still far from being consistent enough in these laps, but my achieved time and my current Optimal time, then know that there is still plenty of air. The Jag also understeers, but usually only after a few milliseconds, apparently the steering angle is already too high and I have to open the steering a bit. This immediately reduces tire squeal, which is the best indicator of understeer or oversteer. My advice reduces your steering sensitivity, I suspect you have too much steering angle too often. Greetings from the only low A driver Maxi

 

[permaculture]

So what's different?
What is causing it to feel like I'm driving a boat at most circuits that have hairpins or difficult corners that bring out understeer.
& why are wheel users able to pull out such a huge time advantage at circuits that aren't Monza? Is it because of the increased steering angle?

Ive got some theories… I have a g29 and juuuuust about at A+ for what it’s worth.

From my perspective, the controller users suffer as much on the long turns as they do on the hairpins. However, the controllers have an incredible advantage at high-speed chicanes.

Last week at Kyoto, I racked up DR. I would get a lot of separation from friends on controller at the first turn and that last hairpin before the chicanes. The wheel offers the ability to make micro-adjustments when you’re along those long curves, and the ability to adjust the throttle on pedals is an advantage.

That said… we get to monza or the chicane of death, and I know that I can’t throw the wheel back and forth with the same precision one can left-right on a joystick. I just went ahead and sat out the Seaside week, to avoid blocking the gap every race.

I don’t know what the fix is, but I don’t remember it being as glaring in GTS. In GT7 I can tell who’s on a controller because of the herky-jerkiness.

 

[fisheye]

Also, did they restrict the use of the handbrake in Sport Mode/FIA recently?

It seems that way in Race B, Race A it still works.

 

[DivitLad]

My issue is why didn't we wheel users get rumble effects the gamepad gets, works in forza fine, my wheel does vibrations too you know pd

 

[Try_Rebooting]

I’ve used the motion control function on the controller since GT Sport.

It seems to give me as much control over the steering as I need.

 

[HarambeRacing]

First of all, I do NOT want to ridicule you or anything like that, but I just drove my first laps in Suzuka, firstly to have some time AND to check what you are talking about. I did these laps in the Jaguar, I don't know if it's superior to the Hyundai you mentioned and that's why I'm quite fast at the times you mentioned, or if there are other reasons for that. I haven't looked at the current rankings there. My observation is more.. Yes there is, but that depends on the player's input.. As you can see from my laps, I'm still far from being consistent enough in these laps, but my achieved time and my current Optimal time, then know that there is still plenty of air. The Jag also understeers, but usually only after a few milliseconds, apparently the steering angle is already too high and I have to open the steering a bit. This immediately reduces tire squeal, which is the best indicator of understeer or oversteer. My advice reduces your steering sensitivity, I suspect you have too much steering angle too often. Greetings from the only low A driver Maxi

Just to update this, I ended up with a 1:58.4 as my qualifying time for the week in a non-meta vehicle.
But that's still about 2 full seconds off the very top guys. I was in the top split lobbies all week & did a 1 stop strategy. It's a huge disadvantage, but honestly I want to have more fun in my races, & for me that means being at the limit (or close to it) & battling others. I picked up a few wins, but mostly secured 2nd/3rds all week which is fine because I started mostly 2nd -4th anyway.

I was watching some guys on wheels like Aura, Grovestreetracing & some others and the way they're able to rotate the car compared to the controllers is insane tbh.

It's interesting what someone said in this thread about constantly scrubbing the tyres because the tyres are over rotating & then oscillating between "over the limit & within the limit of grip", causing horrendous tyre wear.

One thing I noticed which I've never seen before in my own game, is that on these guys streams when i see my own car... it looks like I'm constantly wiggling around in every single corner I go through. Even If I get a great drive off the corner, my car looks like it's almost dancing.

 

[benjoi84]

Honestly I want to have more fun in my races, & for me that means being at the limit (or close to it) & battling others.

I was going to add something to this effect too. Whenever there's a choice of strategy I tend to go for the flat-out option.
Fuel saving is possible (unless it involves endless clicking over to the Fuel Map, then forget it), but tyre preservation (coasting, holding back on the trail braking) just causes me to lose my rhythm, my natural pace and subsequently my consistency goes out of the window.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

Yeah, one thing I notice is that I'm always very competitive in Monza. I don't know if it's because of the knowledge I have of the circuit but I can always challenge the best players even using wheels in that circuit, regardless of the car category being used.

In the last Online Sport mode Time Trial in Suzuka, I did a 1.58.3, was about top 340-350 in the end, could've wasted more time and definitely improve by about 4 tenths or so. But I also realize that on the Suzuka hairpin, the ghost car of the top player would get almost half a second faster.
HALF A SECOND in just one corner (taking into account exit speed until doing the Spoon Corner)!!! And it's not the case of being a bad driver, it's just my car doesn't turn as good as his, I tried a plethora of ways, going agressive, going slowly, using a lower gear, using a higher gear, to enter that corner and the car just wouldn't turn as good as his, and I was using the same car (BoP so we are at equal settings).

Another part where I lose so much time compared to the best wheel users is on the Esses of Suzuka and Degner 1 where car rotation is extremely important almost as much as hairpins.

It's pretty much the same in La Sarthe using the Mazda 787B. The parts of the circuit where I just cannot, at all, compete with the top players using wheels is on the Esses (after the Dunlop chicane), Tertre Rouge, Arnage (right after Indianapolis, the slowest corner in the circuit) and of course, the Porsche Curves.

I can keep up, and at times even gain time on the best guys on the chicanes, but other than that, if the turn requires full lock to either side at very slow or very high speeds, you don't have a chance.


One other thing is that the gap is increased the harder the car is to drive. I noticed some people in the top 100 got decent times with the 919 Hybrid, I think the best time with this car is a high 3:14, and I was actually able to be just 1 second off that time using the 919, did a high 3:15 with it.
The reason why I can be so competitive against wheel users in LMP cars is that the car pretty much takes all those technical corners flat out, so the steering input isn't going to make much of a difference.

But again, not complaining, it's only natural. Wheel and Pedals is just far more precise and the real way to drive cars in a sim or simcade like GT7.
I still dream of one day getting a top 10 time one one of these trials, but I might as well be content with being a top 10 controller time.

 

[xMAXIx79]

Yeah, one thing I notice is that I'm always very competitive in Monza. I don't know if it's because of the knowledge I have of the circuit but I can always challenge the best players even using wheels in that circuit, regardless of the car category being used.

In the last Online Sport mode Time Trial in Suzuka, I did a 1.58.3, was about top 340-350 in the end, could've wasted more time and definitely improve by about 4 tenths or so. But I also realize that on the Suzuka hairpin, the ghost car of the top player would get almost half a second faster.
HALF A SECOND in just one corner (taking into account exit speed until doing the Spoon Corner)!!! And it's not the case of being a bad driver, it's just my car doesn't turn as good as his, I tried a plethora of ways, going agressive, going slowly, using a lower gear, using a higher gear, to enter that corner and the car just wouldn't turn as good as his, and I was using the same car (BoP so we are at equal settings).

Another part where I lose so much time compared to the best wheel users is on the Esses of Suzuka and Degner 1 where car rotation is extremely important almost as much as hairpins.

It's pretty much the same in La Sarthe using the Mazda 787B. The parts of the circuit where I just cannot, at all, compete with the top players using wheels is on the Esses (after the Dunlop chicane), Tertre Rouge, Arnage (right after Indianapolis, the slowest corner in the circuit) and of course, the Porsche Curves.

I can keep up, and at times even gain time on the best guys on the chicanes, but other than that, if the turn requires full lock to either side at very slow or very high speeds, you don't have a chance.


One other thing is that the gap is increased the harder the car is to drive. I noticed some people in the top 100 god decent times with the 919 Hybrid, I think the best time with this car is a high 3:14, and I was actually able to be just 1 second off that time using the 919, did a high 3:15 with it.
The reason why I can be so competitive against wheel users in LMP cars is that the car pretty much takes all those technical corners flat out, so the steering input isn't going to make much of a difference.

But again, not complaining, it's only natural. Wheel and Pedals is just far more precise and the real way to drive cars in a sim or simcade like GT7.
I still dream of one day getting a top 10 time one one of these trials, but I might as well be content with being a top 10 controller time.

In a "few years" there will probably be neither a pad nor a steering wheel, then we will only control it with our thoughts.... I'm curious how big the time differences will be then.

 

[Hobson]

Yeah, one thing I notice is that I'm always very competitive in Monza. I don't know if it's because of the knowledge I have of the circuit but I can always challenge the best players even using wheels in that circuit, regardless of the car category being used.

In the last Online Sport mode Time Trial in Suzuka, I did a 1.58.3, was about top 340-350 in the end, could've wasted more time and definitely improve by about 4 tenths or so. But I also realize that on the Suzuka hairpin, the ghost car of the top player would get almost half a second faster.
HALF A SECOND in just one corner (taking into account exit speed until doing the Spoon Corner)!!! And it's not the case of being a bad driver, it's just my car doesn't turn as good as his, I tried a plethora of ways, going agressive, going slowly, using a lower gear, using a higher gear, to enter that corner and the car just wouldn't turn as good as his, and I was using the same car (BoP so we are at equal settings).

Another part where I lose so much time compared to the best wheel users is on the Esses of Suzuka and Degner 1 where car rotation is extremely important almost as much as hairpins.

It's pretty much the same in La Sarthe using the Mazda 787B. The parts of the circuit where I just cannot, at all, compete with the top players using wheels is on the Esses (after the Dunlop chicane), Tertre Rouge, Arnage (right after Indianapolis, the slowest corner in the circuit) and of course, the Porsche Curves.

I can keep up, and at times even gain time on the best guys on the chicanes, but other than that, if the turn requires full lock to either side at very slow or very high speeds, you don't have a chance.


One other thing is that the gap is increased the harder the car is to drive. I noticed some people in the top 100 got decent times with the 919 Hybrid, I think the best time with this car is a high 3:14, and I was actually able to be just 1 second off that time using the 919, did a high 3:15 with it.
The reason why I can be so competitive against wheel users in LMP cars is that the car pretty much takes all those technical corners flat out, so the steering input isn't going to make much of a difference.

But again, not complaining, it's only natural. Wheel and Pedals is just far more precise and the real way to drive cars in a sim or simcade like GT7.
I still dream of one day getting a top 10 time one one of these trials, but I might as well be content with being a top 10 controller time.

I honestly wouldn't worry that hard, you're definitely within the space of hitting top 10 on any of the time trials, with work of course. You just can't get the car rotated around corners. On GTS I make top 10 regionally any day of the week on controller, but on GT7 I'm a whole second off too.

I only ran a 158.2 on the Suzuka Time trial and lost all my time in the S bends/hairpins because of rotation also.

Daily Race B I'm stuck running 159.2 with the GT-R and it's driving like a completely brick, meanwhile top 100 are all driving it like a go-kart

 

[HarambeRacing]

I was going to add something to this effect too. Whenever there's a choice of strategy I tend to go for the flat-out option.
Fuel saving is possible (unless it involves endless clicking over to the Fuel Map, then forget it), but tyre preservation (coasting, holding back on the trail braking) just causes me to lose my rhythm, my natural pace and subsequently my consistency goes out of the window.

Yea I've heard some people saying "oh they're just too dumb to fuel save" & it's like "No, some of us just want to have fun in a video game, not treat it like real life". I work as an engineer, so I think my poor brain can manage fuel saving in a video game... I just don't want to because 99% of the time, it isn't as fun as going flat out, on the edge, battling with other people that are flat out & on the edge too.

I really wish they'd reduce pit stop times by at least 10 seconds so we could have more varied competitive strategy & more options for usable cars.

Yeah, one thing I notice is that I'm always very competitive in Monza. I don't know if it's because of the knowledge I have of the circuit but I can always challenge the best players even using wheels in that circuit, regardless of the car category being used.

In the last Online Sport mode Time Trial in Suzuka, I did a 1.58.3, was about top 340-350 in the end, could've wasted more time and definitely improve by about 4 tenths or so. But I also realize that on the Suzuka hairpin, the ghost car of the top player would get almost half a second faster.
HALF A SECOND in just one corner (taking into account exit speed until doing the Spoon Corner)!!! And it's not the case of being a bad driver, it's just my car doesn't turn as good as his, I tried a plethora of ways, going agressive, going slowly, using a lower gear, using a higher gear, to enter that corner and the car just wouldn't turn as good as his, and I was using the same car (BoP so we are at equal settings).

Another part where I lose so much time compared to the best wheel users is on the Esses of Suzuka and Degner 1 where car rotation is extremely important almost as much as hairpins.

It's pretty much the same in La Sarthe using the Mazda 787B. The parts of the circuit where I just cannot, at all, compete with the top players using wheels is on the Esses (after the Dunlop chicane), Tertre Rouge, Arnage (right after Indianapolis, the slowest corner in the circuit) and of course, the Porsche Curves.

I can keep up, and at times even gain time on the best guys on the chicanes, but other than that, if the turn requires full lock to either side at very slow or very high speeds, you don't have a chance.


One other thing is that the gap is increased the harder the car is to drive. I noticed some people in the top 100 got decent times with the 919 Hybrid, I think the best time with this car is a high 3:14, and I was actually able to be just 1 second off that time using the 919, did a high 3:15 with it.
The reason why I can be so competitive against wheel users in LMP cars is that the car pretty much takes all those technical corners flat out, so the steering input isn't going to make much of a difference.

But again, not complaining, it's only natural. Wheel and Pedals is just far more precise and the real way to drive cars in a sim or simcade like GT7.
I still dream of one day getting a top 10 time one one of these trials, but I might as well be content with being a top 10 controller time.

Yea I have no problem with wheels being the better option & giving an advantage when you have equivalent skill, however I do believe firmly that the playerbase should be split by hardware for sport mode.
Or if not split by hardware, at the very least there needs to be icons that denote who is using a wheel/controller, so you can actually see who you're competing against on equivalent hardware.
Games like Destiny do it with the mouse/keyboard & controllers with crossplay... if you plug in a mouse & keyboard, you get matched against other players using a mouse & keyboard (unless you're a cheat using XIM)
I don't see why they can't do a similar thing, & create a more fair environment where we all have the same issues (& prevent any kind of hardware switching once you're in the lobby, i.e. force a disconnection of the session if you disconnectyour controller to plug in a wheel before race start).

Monza is a great track for controllers, I think because it's flat, without any hairpins or long understeer inducing corners.

One track that is HORRIBLE for controllers imo is the Japan Speedway, fuji speedway I mean... That 3rd sector you can lose around 1 second to equivalent wheel users in just that sector alone.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

I honestly wouldn't worry that hard, you're definitely within the space of hitting top 10 on any of the time trials, with work of course. You just can't get the car rotated around corners. On GTS I make top 10 regionally any day of the week on controller, but on GT7 I'm a whole second off too.

I only ran a 158.2 on the Suzuka Time trial and lost all my time in the S bends/hairpins because of rotation also.

Daily Race B I'm stuck running 159.2 with the GT-R and it's driving like a completely brick, meanwhile top 100 are all driving it like a go-kart

Exactly, hairpins and S bends are controller's worst enemies. The way the wheel users rotate on the Suzuka hairpin it's like they almost drift there but still have a crapton of traction to get such amazing corner exit speeds.

As for me hitting the top 10 of any time trials? Only if it's within my country, definitely not worldwide.

What I would like to have in the future is a time trial on TORRENTIAL rain... Now that would be interesting.

Yea I have no problem with wheels being the better option & giving an advantage when you have equivalent skill, however I do believe firmly that the playerbase should be split by hardware for sport mode.
Or if not split by hardware, at the very least there needs to be icons that denote who is using a wheel/controller, so you can actually see who you're competing against on equivalent hardware.
Games like Destiny do it with the mouse/keyboard & controllers with crossplay... if you plug in a mouse & keyboard, you get matched against other players using a mouse & keyboard (unless you're a cheat using XIM)
I don't see why they can't do a similar thing, & create a more fair environment where we all have the same issues (& prevent any kind of hardware switching once you're in the lobby, i.e. force a disconnection of the session if you disconnectyour controller to plug in a wheel before race start).

Monza is a great track for controllers, I think because it's flat, without any hairpins or long understeer inducing corners.

One track that is HORRIBLE for controllers imo is the Japan Speedway, fuji speedway I mean... That 3rd sector you can lose around 1 second to equivalent wheel users in just that sector alone.

I disagree with matching people who use whatever setup. The top end of the spectrum may be wheel players but in the mid-end you have a lot of mixture where many controller users can beat wheel users. So I don't think this would be good for the game, it would kill a lot of competition.

However, I do agree that GT7 should introduce a gimmick about what setup people are using, as an icon on the display screen before the races or such. I think in GTA 5 for PC we could see who was using Mouse+Keyboard users and who were the Controller users. And the PS5 system can easily detect such things as well (pretty much any console post PS3 has been a computer so no reason why it can't be done).
Still wouldn't give it priority over many things the game needs, but I would still be glad to know what I am racing up against.

And yeah... Fuji's last sector is a nightmare. I thought it was me who just couldn't handle the awkward uphill corners but it seems that again, controller users have a really hard time rotating on the last corner and on the corner before it. Which of course to no surprise, are slow speed corners.

 

[Hobson]

Exactly, hairpins and S bends are controller's worst enemies. The way the wheel users rotate on the Suzuka hairpin it's like they almost drift there but still have a crapton of traction to get such amazing corner exit speeds.

As for me hitting the top 10 of any time trials? Only if it's within my country, definitely not worldwide.

What I would like to have in the future is a time trial on TORRENTIAL rain... Now that would be interesting.

I disagree with matching people who use whatever setup. The top end of the spectrum may be wheel players but in the mid-end you have a lot of mixture where many controller users can beat wheel users. So I don't think this would be good for the game, it would kill a lot of competition.

However, I do agree that GT7 should introduce a gimmick about what setup people are using, as an icon on the display screen before the races or such. I think in GTA 5 for PC we could see who was using Mouse+Keyboard users and who were the Controller users. And the PS5 system can easily detect such things as well (pretty much any console post PS3 has been a computer so no reason why it can't be done).
Still wouldn't give it priority over many things the game needs, but I would still be glad to know what I am racing up against.

And yeah... Fuji's last sector is a nightmare. I thought it was me who just couldn't handle the awkward uphill corners but it seems that again, controller users have a really hard time rotating on the last corner and on the corner before it. Which of course to no surprise, are slow speed corners.

Speaking of Monza and the GTWS race, what times are you currently running? I'm slow as molasses here in the M4 apparently, running 159.9's consistently.

 

[TechnoIsLove]

I'm a controller user and my main gripe which is expected, is the lack of precision in fast chicanes especially. It's impossible to be as precise as a wheel, in particular the ability to change direction accurately at speed. Prime example is the COD in Dragon Tail.

I drove a friend's wheel yesterday and did some qualy laps on Race B (Trial Mountain reverse) using his account. The best example of a difference is towards the end of Sector 2, the chicane just after the short tunnel.

With my controller, i have to shift to 4th on exit so I can shift down to 3rd to make the apex. If I keep it on 3rd, the car won't respond and you go way too deep into the exit corner, even scrape it.

With his wheel, i was able to keep it in 3rd and as soon as the rev limit hits, i could quickly change direction and keep going. That turned out to be 0.185 difference (gained) after trying it again using a controller.

I do think that mastering the game on controller and then shifting to wheel gives you an advantage as a driver, once you're used to the difference. Being able to maximize the lap on controller, you learn (at least it's my opinion) to learn to control the car at the limit. When you change to wheel, you're able to keep the flow much better and it makes you a better driver in the long run.

I want to move to a rig but I just don't have the space in my living room. Just my 2 cents

 

[Grimm6Jack]

Speaking of Monza and the GTWS race, what times are you currently running? I'm slow as molasses here in the M4 apparently, running 159.9's consistently.

Oh, I'm not too much into the GTWS races. Don't think I'm good enough for them.

 

[Hobson]

Oh, I'm not too much into the GTWS races. Don't think I'm good enough for them.

I thought the same too, then a friend changed my mind and I entered for the first time and had decent fun. If you're into sanctioned racing you'd have a blast.

Can I send you a friend request on PSN?

 

[Grimm6Jack]

I thought the same too, then a friend changed my mind and I entered for the first time and had decent fun. If you're into sanctioned racing you'd have a blast.

Can I send you a friend request on PSN?

Yes no problem. Just don't use the user that's displaying in the site, it was an old account I lost a long time ago. I'll PM my PSN.