Crash Damage will change the game dynamic

[JDMKING13]

I feel what everyone is saying, but my question is why does forza2 allow damage to all their cars such as Porsche, Ferrari, etc. Gran turismo has been out way longer then forza series. How did they even get lambo's, porsches, and ferrari in their game before GT and allow them to get damage can someone explain that to me?

 

[Ghost_drift]

I feel what everyone is saying, but my question is why does forza2 allow damage to all their cars such as Porsche, Ferrari, etc. Gran turismo has been out way longer then forza series. How did they even get lambo's, porsches, and ferrari in their game before GT and allow them to get damage can someone explain that to me?

It is because of the damage shown. Had a discussion on this on anouther forum. Basicaly Forza where alowed to do bodywork damage, as long as nothing on the actual chassis was touched, and the cabin/cockpit area remaned the same shape. Also mechanical damage was agreed upon on some manufacturers, if you plau it you will notice some cars get damaged more than others and so on. Some one on OPC comented about a mod that he worked on in Rfactor where Ferrari alowed the inclusion of there F430. But no damage was alowed to happen to the Left hand side wing mirror as it has the F430 logo on it. And in games like NFS and Forza you will notice that no matter how badly you damage the cars you can always see the Companey Logo or badge.

And I think it is just Kaz's perfectionist style that is stopping it, as he wants proper realist damage. He doesnt want a car that jit a wall at 200mph just have the bonnet bend up and some paint scratched, like Forza,NFS, and grid have. If you look at the cars on Dirt for example arfter a large front end smash where their is no bonnet bumper or anything left. The radiator and chassis of the car remain undamaged. I think PD are trying to get it we will be able to see engines mangled up, chassis twisted and stuff like that.

 

[JDMKING13]

It is because of the damage shown. Had a discussion on this on anouther forum. Basicaly Forza where alowed to do bodywork damage, as long as nothing on the actual chassis was touched, and the cabin/cockpit area remaned the same shape. Also mechanical damage was agreed upon on some manufacturers, if you plau it you will notice some cars get damaged more than others and so on. Some one on OPC comented about a mod that he worked on in Rfactor where Ferrari alowed the inclusion of there F430. But no damage was alowed to happen to the Left hand side wing mirror as it has the F430 logo on it. And in games like NFS and Forza you will notice that no matter how badly you damage the cars you can always see the Companey Logo or badge.

And I think it is just Kaz's perfectionist style that is stopping it, as he wants proper realist damage. He doesnt want a car that jit a wall at 200mph just have the bonnet bend up and some paint scratched, like Forza,NFS, and grid have. If you look at the cars on Dirt for example arfter a large front end smash where their is no bonnet bumper or anything left. The radiator and chassis of the car remain undamaged. I think PD are trying to get it we will be able to see engines mangled up, chassis twisted and stuff like that.

Ok i got you on that, but how did they get the car licens for porsche and lambos? GT has been out way longer then forza and is a huge franchise. I dont get how these car companies are giving KAZ a hard time while forza gets all these cars with no hassel

 

[Japspecvr6]

Ok i got you on that, but how did they get the car licens for porsche and lambos? GT has been out way longer then forza and is a huge franchise. I dont get how these car companies are giving KAZ a hard time while forza gets all these cars with no hassel

My guess is that they only have the licenses for certain cars......Maybe Kaz wants a Full license so he can include the whole catalog at his disposal.....

Example : Forza>license>Ferrari> 430, 355, 599

GT>license>Ferrari> 430, 355, 599, Dino, P4/5,Concept.........

 

[JDMKING13]

thanks! 👍

 

[Mad94d]

yea its so true, for example on the daytona road course, through the "bus stop" - if i go as fast as i can its a 50/50 chance if i will make it out the other side because i have no fear of crashing and i push the car until its only half in my control.

In real life i would never go that fast.

+1. In real life I would never be that confident.

 

[Ghost_drift]

Well I have just been locking into this and from what I have read, and from what we know about EA securing Liscences. It seams like EA's new love child called. Need for speed: World Online, has secured Porche, Lamborghini, Pagani. This is sad to think that if EA has locked these cars from any other race sims (that they do alot) then we wont be getting any of them in GT5. Now the thing is NFS:World Online will be a semi free game. But the fact that these cars are in it, probably does mean that EA has won the contracts again. And if they can use the cars in NFS:WO then they will use the cars in both Shift and Nitro when they are released.

Unfortunatly EA has more money, due to not bothering to develop new games and just releasing the same ones over and over again. They also outsell GT because they are Multi Platform.

Here is the information on NFS:WO on Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need_for_Speed:_World_Online

And this is the video that confirms the inclusion of these cars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM4Y-hqROU4

Looks pants but it is Free.

And then NFS: shift screen shots showing Porche and Pagani.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsmdZk8i904

and anouther one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z98932zIQmI&NR=1


But this isnt realy the topic we are supposed to be discussing lol.

 

[zed300]

It's a tough one. If any of you have had a car accident,even something minor the damage can be quite significant.I've bent the roof on an RX4 at 60kph/37mph ,hitting a lamp pole. We are racing at much greater speeds than this so because of standard chassis the damage will be huge even at low speeds 160kph/100mphinto the side of another car trying to get up the inside.

 

[Ghost_drift]

It's a tough one. If any of you have had a car accident,even something minor the damage can be quite significant.I've bent the roof on an RX4 at 60kph/37mph ,hitting a lamp pole. We are racing at much greater speeds than this so because of standard chassis the damage will be huge even at low speeds 160kph/100mphinto the side of another car trying to get up the inside.

Yes, and with todays new cars that are desighned to crumple up. a tiny accident in a carpark can cause majour damage, and like you said at race speeds, there will be nothing left of the cars.

 

[SpawnBlack]

If damage does become introduced into the game, competitive racers who are successful will have more realistic lap times because they will be more cautious drivers. Remember Jeremy Clarkson in the segment of his show where he drove an NSX around Leguna Seca, and in real life to see which was faster? The digital lap was seconds faster than the real one. I would not mind the challange of keeping my car in one piece if I want to have a chance at winning a long race.

What you have to remember with Jeremy Clarkson is that he has no time to actually play any GT game to it's fullest potential and i dont think he even knows how to set up a car as far as gear settings or the correct tyre choice when it comes to GT. He's not very smart when it comes to the mechanical side of any vehicle he more interested in POWERRRRR !!

If you're listening to Clarkson then you will need to reconsider everything he has said over the years, besides Tiff Needell knows more than him as he used to race cars for a living...ie GT Class.

 

[SpawnBlack]

The damage should be put in GT5 and hopoefully put in GT5P as an update but it maybe too late for GT5P. This would certainly keep the punters away and sort out the true racers from the come along and have a one go racers.

 

[Sniffs]

I know most of you guys are hoping that a damage protocol will get rid of casual gamers, but for those of us who have a literal decade of Gran Turismo under our belts may still not have the "perfection" of people who learned the game in it's 4 and 5p versions. remember, people playing Gran turismo may know more about Carburetors than video games.

 

[panjandrum]

I would very much like to see some sort of damage model implemented, but I also want it to be realistic. I think many of the younger people here would be surprised how easily cars are damaged (most of the cars, the exception being some buffed-up rally cars, would simply break upon landing from that "jump" on Eiger). It isn't anything like what we see in most racing sims or in movies. It is also so variable - for example you might roll an older car at lower speeds on a dirt rally track, hop out and roll it back over, and just keep driving and it might drive just fine but look like a complete wreck. On the other hand, take that same car and hit a front corner just the tiniest bit too hard, and you might have a car which looks OK but is undrivable. I haven't yet played a sim that does this very well (just look at Dirt and Grid as an example - the amount of damage you can do to those cars is utterly unrealistic).

My ideal system would be something like this:

1) Realistic car damage
2) Depending on the damage you can either keep racing or head back to the pit for a repair or be out of the race.
3) If put out of the race it would be nice to get "teleported" back to the pit area or to an observation point where you could watch the remainder of the race.

I also agree it would be fun to implement a system wherein you need to repair your car using credits - but I don't think it is going to happen. You would end up with situations where someone purposefully takes you out, or has cheated somehow to have infinite credits and is just out to be a complete jerk. I think many of us would just quit the game or turn off the console at that point. I'm perfectly happy to have to pay for damage which is my fault, or which is the ACCIDENTAL fault of another driver, but considering the amount of purposeful punting going on out there - I think we are likely to see a lot of damage being caused on purpose as well.

 

[bicycleshorts]

I think many of the younger people here would be surprised how easily cars are damaged (most of the cars, the exception being some buffed-up rally cars, would simply break upon landing from that "jump" on Eiger).

That would bring a very interesting concept to GT. How hard to push on that straight - risking damage over getting into the corner first and having to protect the lead the rest of the lap. Or, letting the oponent keep the leader to attack later on.

I also hope for ultra-realistic damage, even if it makes the game "too" hard. There will always be the option of turning it off. Making it anything less than as punishing as it should be in real life is silly. I imagine a lot of people struggle with the "pro" physics at the minute (especially pad users), so they can fall back on the "std" - and everyone wins

 

[j8mie]

I know this topic has been done to death over the years, but I'm happy to chip in with a few thoughts as I love thinking about it.

My guess for PD not implementing damage is down to Kaz not wanting to add it into the game until he could do it right. Think of it like this...

Your racing against the AI and hit someone else. There is panel damage to your car, does the AI player retire due to it's damage or carry on? There is also damage to your suspension and exhaust. The engine note now needs to change due to exhaust system damage, does this cause a drop in BHP due to lack of back pressure? Can you limp back to the pits to get your car checked, if you can will the suspension get worse and break before you get back to the pits? Is that body damage rubbing on the tyres, will it cause a blow out, no doubt there is smoke coming off that rear wheel. Don't forget those side windows are broken now, so there is some negative effect on the cars overall aerodynamics.

Now I don't for a second believe PD will implement a damage system that takes all that into effect first time out, but I do believe they will look to model panel damage and damage to important components like suspension and engine.

We can guess until the cows come home but we will all have to wait and see. Roll on the next PD update

 

[Tornado]

i dont think he even knows how to set up a car as far as gear settings or the correct tyre choice when it comes to GT. He's not very smart when it comes to the mechanical side of any vehicle he more interested in POWERRRRR !!

If you're listening to Clarkson then you will need to reconsider everything he has said over the years, besides Tiff Needell knows more than him as he used to race cars for a living...ie GT Class.

Try again. None of what you said actually applies. In order to fairly race the two laptimes, a stock car in real life would have to be represented in the game by an equally stock car. Ergo, no setting up "gear settings" or "correct tire choices."

I think many of the younger people here would be surprised how easily cars are damaged (most of the cars, the exception being some buffed-up rally cars, would simply break upon landing from that "jump" on Eiger). It isn't anything like what we see in most racing sims or in movies. It is also so variable - for example you might roll an older car at lower speeds on a dirt rally track, hop out and roll it back over, and just keep driving and it might drive just fine but look like a complete wreck. On the other hand, take that same car and hit a front corner just the tiniest bit too hard, and you might have a car which looks OK but is undrivable. I haven't yet played a sim that does this very well (just look at Dirt and Grid as an example - the amount of damage you can do to those cars is utterly unrealistic).

Viper Racing had this. Cut the inside of a curbed corner at a couple of tracks (like rally drivers do) without upgrading the suspension and the wishbone for the wheel in question would snap when the inside edge of the wheel hit the curb. Going to a track with a jump without changing suspension settings to compensate and then launching more than a few inches off the ground would collapse the suspension (in some cases at all four corners), as would going down a hill that leveled out quickly. I used to know a way to hack the AI car setups so that when they went to the tracks in question, they would all crash when they got the the hills in question (and because of how good the AI was and the damage model the game had, the results were usually hilarious).

 

[Hun200kmh]

Two more cents from me.

One concerns panjandrum's post and the Eiger jump he mentioned. These silly jumps we got in GT games (like the Seattle ones) will have to end if damage is implemented. And if it's only because of damage that this "arcade car jumping" in GT ends, then I really want damage implemented.

The second concerns j8mie's post, about the realism of damage. Considering the GT legacy, I guess what concerns more PD about damage is the graphical challenge to make it look realistic. In fact, the most realistic in the PS3. And that is a real challenge, considering the bar was put very high by Grid's excellent graphical damage. IF PD wants to do better, they have to get near photo-realistic perfection.

For those that never have seen it, check this pre-release video, it just shows how the competition is tough, even in the graphical department:



(side note: I don't like Grid, and I don't play Grid, but that happens because of physics, not because of graphics, damage graphics included).

However, j8mie raises two interesting questions about the realism of damage:

a) it will have an effect that has to be realistically rendered, be it in handling, engine output, gearchanging trouble and even in sound;

b) If it is indeed realistic, the slightest mistake can have dire consequences.

About a) I think several games, even from last generation, did a very decent job. One that comes to mid is TRD 3, where the cars would be nearly undriveable, the gearbox would become almost not functional, the engine power would decrease and even the car sound would change. SO I don't see a great problem there.

About b) I guess that, as it happens with the handling option in GT5P, damage will be implemented in a way that you can make it more or less true to real life. At least that's what I hope.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

That would bring a very interesting concept to GT. How hard to push on that straight - risking damage over getting into the corner first and having to protect the lead the rest of the lap. Or, letting the oponent keep the leader to attack later on.

I also hope for ultra-realistic damage, even if it makes the game "too" hard. There will always be the option of turning it off. Making it anything less than as punishing as it should be in real life is silly. I imagine a lot of people struggle with the "pro" physics at the minute (especially pad users), so they can fall back on the "std" - and everyone wins

As a pad user i'd happily "fall" back to standard physics since for me it feels even more to real life, i have a 170hp hatch and i've never lost traction like in "pro" physics even on ice and snow..., however , if it wasn't for the catch- up effect and ridiculous lag on standard physics
I still hope, damage or not, GT5 will get rid of those 2 different driving physics concepts and does provide different difficulty levels thru different tyres , as it used to be in all the previous GTs

 

[bicycleshorts]

As a pad user i'd happily "fall" back to standard physics since for me it feels even more to real life, i have a 170hp hatch and i've never lost traction like in "pro" physics even on ice and snow..., however , if it wasn't for the catch- up effect and ridiculous lag on standard physics
I still hope, damage or not, GT5 will get rid of those 2 different driving physics concepts and does provide different difficulty levels thru different tyres , as it used to be in all the previous GTs

Nothing was meant by "falling back", I was referring more to RWD than FWD or 4WD. Controlling the rear with very little modulation is always going to be difficult - I know I can't do it.

You have to remember that even though you've not lost traction in real life - you would not be doing the same speed. Simply put there's no fear of crashing, so you can go a lot faster. This coupled with the lack of speed present in the game (no G-forces), the speeds you reach in the game will be a lot quicker than in real life - even if you don't notice it.

I have a small Ford Ka and I've had that understeering at 20mph in the rain, 40mph in the dry. Take note of your speed on the road and try to recreate it in GT, I'm sure you'll find it to be quite accurate

Edit: Also, removing "standard" physics would lose a lot of the audience - only 5% would be able to effectively drive a high-powered RWD car (especially without driving aids). A lot of casual gamers would be lost and the game would cease to exist. Members of this forum are in the minority of the gamebase - a lot of people seem to forget that. None of the previous games properly recreated driving rear-wheel drive, all you ever got (especially with GT4) was understeer.

 

[j8mie]

Something I forgot to mention earlier was that I have no idea why Kaz won't implement something until it's perfect. The rumour is that we will only see damage on race cars, not show room examples, but I still don't understand why he didn't do panel damage in GT4 (I mean bent panels not things getting ripped off, there are limits to what the PS2 could do), and then add new damage features through the series like broken suspension, engine etc.

 

[humpus]

Remember the 'damage' they put in GT1? (or GT2, I don't know anymore)

When you hit the wall or another car, your steering angle was affected, causing you to constantly countersteer the wrong angle. I think this should defenately by in GT5, along with some mechanical and visual damage.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

I didn't mean to say i've never lost traction in real life... just not like in GT5p pro mode, thanks godness!!! IRL i jus tab the brakes if I overcooked it and its all good, instead of sliding forever until I eventually reach the end of the road...
Anyway I just think it don't make much sense having two (both somewhat unrealistic) driving modes in a highly anticipated game like GT, I just hope PD is aware of how many people this would put off actually.
Did the other GTs had this? No.
You want two differnt modes,online catch-up system and damage? LOL


Really they should merge those modes, get rid of the boost ( unfair, causes lot of lag) and then, just then, think about damage, hopefully not as bad as in GT2...

 

[bicycleshorts]

You want two differnt modes,online catch-up system and damage? LOL


Really they should merge those modes, get rid of the boost ( unfair, causes lot of lag) and then, just then, think about damage, hopefully not as bad as in GT2...

Again, there are more people who play this game than those on this forum - there are millions of casual gamers to factor in. If the game was made too difficult (by removing boost, adding ulta-realistic damage and only allowing people to use one set of physics - have you tried the Ferrari N1 race on a pad? I can't imagine it's as easy as with a wheel..) these casual gamers would be lost. That means a massive reduction in profits and as a result less licenses can be bought, less programmers can be hired and less time can be spent creating the game.

The "pro" physics are the most realistic in any GT game so far (in my opinion), many others will agree. What that means is; it's not possible to drive as fast with a pad as with a wheel (even the best pad users will admit that). Therefore there needs to be a physics to allow pad users (and/or) casual gamers to keep up with oponents and enjoy the game - though I'm not saying standard isn't good with a wheel either.

I'm suggesting having events with damage on/off in the same way that there are events with standard/professional physics. Why is that such a "LOL"? .

If there were only one set of physics I (and many others would prefer) only the professional physics - would you prefer this?

Why is choice such a bad thing

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

I agree with you in most points and I admit it's hard to explain for me, but what I mean is this whole concept of two different modes, especially the boost effect, will piss many less skilled (like me) and casuals players off, not attract them...
the standard physic is no fun, it's just boring and unfair ( in my and anyone's else opinion i've asked )

I'm not against more choice but that could be done simply thru tyre regulations, which the F430 N1 race is a very good example.

And the LOL was mainly for the idea of damage implemented properly (and getting rid of lag at the same time ) I may doubt this will ever been done, as much as i'd love to see it.

The only thing making me look forward is that the previous concept and prologue games of GT always where kinda lame as far as physics and tuning options go.

 

[Biggles]

I can see that "damage" represents a real challenge for PD. Aside from the licensing issues, KY's obsession with visual perfection will make it difficult to accomplish.

Personally, I think a compromise like the damage in Forza 2 probably makes the most sense: there is some visual indication of damage & some effects on performance - they don't have to be completely "realistic". Even relatively minor damage to the steering, HP, suspension or aerodynamics are enough to make a car uncompetitive. The purpose of damage in GT5 should be to force people to drive more conservatively (ie, realistically), not to encourage them to indulge in a GRiD crash-fest. I think most serious GT5 racers (ie. in private lobbies) would respect that & drive accordingly.

 

[JDMKING13]

I can see that "damage" represents a real challenge for PD. Aside from the licensing issues, KY's obsession with visual perfection will make it difficult to accomplish.

Personally, I think a compromise like the damage in Forza 2 probably makes the most sense: there is some visual indication of damage & some effects on performance - they don't have to be completely "realistic". Even relatively minor damage to the steering, HP, suspension or aerodynamics are enough to make a car uncompetitive. The purpose of damage in GT5 should be to force people to drive more conservatively (ie, realistically), not to encourage them to indulge in a GRiD crash-fest. I think most serious GT5 racers (ie. in private lobbies) would respect that & drive accordingly.

👍

 

[kekke2000]

I think i've heard/read in some interview somewhere that the plan is to implement damage to specific cars in GT5, Touring Cars were mentioned.

Kaz commented damage early 2008 (I think there is a problem with translation)
"That's the plan, yes! It's actually really difficult to finish the quality that's possible with the PS3, in terms of the fine details - it's a lot harder than we first expected. A lot of things are very dependent on that, and we can't answer right away. However, we are planning to add the community features, and the damage, during Gran Turismo 5 Prologue."

 

[NoTC]

If damage modelling comes, I would like to see that you also need to fix your car after race with your Credits... that could calm down some racers, cause they might loose more credits at one race, than earn.

Also if you would not fix your car, it stays in that shape in your garage also... so in the end, rammers would only have garage full of crashed cars and zero credits. In that point you needed to sell all your crashed cars with very low prize to car-scrap-yard, and buy some new one, and start like beginning.

Damage only should effect realisticly to that car who cause accident, and much less to 'victim'. Before that, they ofcourse need to fix judging-system, that biggest damages goes to right address.

THis is a great post and some great ideas.
Personally I'm not pushed about damage in the game. When GT1 first came out I thought 'wouldn't some damage be nice' but after that I haven;t really been bothered by it.

A couple of things I am nervous about when it comes to damage are:

A) its entirally possible that the damage wont be programmed to effect the cars performance. So to me its really a waste of time.

B) If they put damage in it might be at the sacrafice of frame rate and possibly the ammount of participants in each on line race.

 

[NoTC]

I can see that "damage" represents a real challenge for PD. Aside from the licensing issues, KY's obsession with visual perfection will make it difficult to accomplish.

Personally, I think a compromise like the damage in Forza 2 probably makes the most sense: there is some visual indication of damage & some effects on performance - they don't have to be completely "realistic". Even relatively minor damage to the steering, HP, suspension or aerodynamics are enough to make a car uncompetitive. The purpose of damage in GT5 should be to force people to drive more conservatively (ie, realistically), not to encourage them to indulge in a GRiD crash-fest. I think most serious GT5 racers (ie. in private lobbies) would respect that & drive accordingly.

The problem here is its PD's M.O. to strive for absolute realism and quality. I think they would be letting themselves down if they were to compramise on their vision of what the game should be by introducing a damage system that didn't really agree with the philosophy of the development of the game.

The part where you mention damage should be there to force people to drive more realistically, this makes a lot of sense but personally I'd hate to be playing on line and having to witness a damage system that just doesn't meet the standards of the rest of the game.

Who knows though, maybe I'll be eating my words when they develop a fantastic damage system.

 

[NoTC]

I know most of you guys are hoping that a damage protocol will get rid of casual gamers, but for those of us who have a literal decade of Gran Turismo under our belts may still not have the "perfection" of people who learned the game in it's 4 and 5p versions. remember, people playing Gran turismo may know more about Carburetors than video games.

Another interesting point is, if you get rid of the 'casual gamers' that we all love to hate you compramise the on line features. If there isn't enough interest, there is little point in funding the on line features.
As much as casual gamers irritate me while I'm having my GTP nerd fest, they are a bit of a necessary evil.......unfortunately.