Curbing reactions in GT6

[smskeeter23]

Obviously we don't yet know fully how much the cars will react to curbing changes in GT6 but I think we may have learned enough in the demo to make a few (albeit vague) presumptions that it will likely upset car balance much more than in GT5.

I've come to realize that for myself, especially on Nordschleife, that I use WAY to much of the curbing hitting them at almost every apex. I just feel like we've gotten away with far too much curb riding/bouncing in GT5 and expect to be punished for it in GT6 if I don't "clean up" my lines a bit.

In the demo we (or at least I) learned that hitting the sausage curb exiting club onto pit straight could be disasterous. Most of the others were pretty flat but slippery as I would expect on a real track.


So my question is how if any will this affect your current driving style? I think some of us may be in for a bit of relearn frustration



(Sorry in advance if this is not a good thread topic mods)

 

[Johnnypenso]

Obviously we don't yet know fully how much the cars will react to curbing changes in GT6 but I think we may have learned enough in the demo to make a few (albeit vague) presumptions that it will likely upset car balance much more than in GT5.

I've come to realize that for myself, especially on Nordschleife, that I use WAY to much of the curbing hitting them at almost every apex. I just feel like we've gotten away with far too much curb riding/bouncing in GT5 and expect to be punished for it in GT6 if I don't "clean up" my lines a bit.

In the demo we (or at least I) learned that hitting the sausage curb exiting club onto pit straight could be disasterous. Most of the others were pretty flat but slippery as I would expect on a real track.

So my question is how if any will this affect your current driving style? I think some of us may be in for a bit of relearn frustration

(Sorry in advance if this is not a good thread topic mods)

I agree, it's far too easy to ride curbs in GT and unrealistic, but I suspect it'll always be that way to keep the casual players from abandoning the game because realism might be too hard. Our only hope is the once mentioned "hardcore mode" but it's pure speculation what it means at this point.

 

[Vagabond]

I don't think it will affect driving style per se, just an adjustment of driving line, which is something we do anyway when finding our way round a new track. Like racing drivers in the real world, we will all abuse the track boundaries as much as possible. The relearning or driving style adjustment is on its way anyway as a result of the new phsyics... less forgiving kerbs are of secondary importance I think.

 

[theBANzai]

I'm not using curbs at Nordschleife at all, because it is not recommended. The curbs there are too high to nail them.

 

[dmcallis]

Not curbing, but related; I'd like to see the speed breakers (i.e. at chicanes at Spa and Monza, etc) actually do something to slow you down... Suspension damage (or the possibility) would work. As is, you can pretty much ignore them... Not right.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't think it will affect driving style per se, just an adjustment of driving line, which is something we do anyway when finding our way round a new track. Like racing drivers in the real world, we will all abuse the track boundaries as much as possible. The relearning or driving style adjustment is on its way anyway as a result of the new phsyics... less forgiving kerbs are of secondary importance I think.

This is true but it might place a much higher premium on accuracy and risk taking. A mistake in climbing a curb that might cause the car to get unsettled leaves much less room for error. There was some evidence of this in the GTA TT IIRC.

 

[Lawndart]

Great point, right now in GT 5 you're almost reworded for curb use and any race driver will use the maximum allotted surface. Curbs seem to help stabilize a car more than upset it in GT, and that's not unrealistic but in a game much easier to abuse.

I would imagine some "slower" drivers/lappers might turn out to be quick... I know I have been mentally conditioned to not hit the huge sausage strips at Laguna Seca (real world) as it will destroy your suspension. But you still aim for them at maximum slip angle as just missing them is the fastest line.

These sausage strips aren't in any game that has Laguna seca in it... And it kills the most technical part of that track.

Also of note, blister strips are as slick as ice if there is any moisture/rain. Worse than grass... But I haven't tested this in GT 5.

 

[GTRacer22]

In real life, I race on ovals, and on the straights, I have to get as close to the wall as possible, and then entering the ax of the corners, you have to get as close to the speed breakers as possible, without hitting them. If you do end up hitting them, it upsets the car, and you lose time. Here's a pic as an example:

 

[mister dog]

Obviously we don't yet know fully how much the cars will react to curbing changes in GT6 but I think we may have learned enough in the demo to make a few (albeit vague) presumptions that it will likely upset car balance much more than in GT5.

I've come to realize that for myself, especially on Nordschleife, that I use WAY to much of the curbing hitting them at almost every apex. I just feel like we've gotten away with far too much curb riding/bouncing in GT5 and expect to be punished for it in GT6 if I don't "clean up" my lines a bit.

In the demo we (or at least I) learned that hitting the sausage curb exiting club onto pit straight could be disasterous. Most of the others were pretty flat but slippery as I would expect on a real track.


So my question is how if any will this affect your current driving style? I think some of us may be in for a bit of relearn frustration

If i recall it good, when doing my laps @ Silverstone in the GT academy demo i noticed the difference also, with the new physics you had to be a lot more mindful to not unsettle the car, including the effect of riding the curbs too much like you were always able to do in previous GT's.

Something which i can only applaud, it will make it a lot more difficult and force you to be subtle in order to be with the best

 

[tezster]

I can see this being useful for online racing, but there are too many clueless racers out there who will get too frustrated if A-Spec racing is made too realistic. A lot of casual gamers are also conditioned by arcade racing games that they can do pretty much anything on the track without any real consequence. At best, it would be nice if it were an option you could toggle i.e. off-track suspension damage.

 

[lpfuelfan42]

Interesting revelations. I never used the curb much at Nurburgring except to lean on some of the high ones from time to time to straighten my car out. Used them quite a bit in other locales though, such as Daytona and Monza. I wonder if I'll have to adapt!

 

[smskeeter23]

I think a very pertinent point has been made here... suspension damage. Model that in and it would take care of the casual gamers (damage off) and more hardcore sim racers (full damage on).

There are a few places on the ring where you can gain a lot of time by purposely offsetting the car by using the curbs that would probably flip you over in real life. I'm expecting a trip into the armco in GT6 if that is tried.

Regardless I can only see upside (for myself and others in terms of realism) for making the curbing more costly one way or another.

 

[mister dog]

I can see this being useful for online racing, but there are too many clueless racers out there who will get too frustrated if A-Spec racing is made too realistic. A lot of casual gamers are also conditioned by arcade racing games that they can do pretty much anything on the track without any real consequence. At best, it would be nice if it were an option you could toggle i.e. off-track suspension damage.

Meh we shouldn't cater too much for them, as long as there are driving assists that can be turned on/off.

 

[VBR]

I was watching one of the the 24 hours of Nurburgring races on GT TV & was supprised about just how much kerb the drivers were using, especially on the kerbs that had additional concrete behind them. Hmmm...

 

[Steph290]

How a vehicle takes a curb depends a lot on the suspension setup. I recently saw the Nismo GTR record lap around the Ring and the driver clearly used the curbs to his advantage. He also stated that the GTR was hardly unsettled by the bumps. I still believe that driving lines will be taken far more seriously in GT6 than in previous titles, tho.

 

[yellowclone]

Take a LMP or Group C car around the Ring in GT5, and you will quickly learn to not use the curbs.

 

[smskeeter23]

Take a LMP or Group C car around the Ring in GT5, and you will quickly learn to not use the curbs.

Done it. Survived. Won races. Maybe I overstated how much I use the curbs there I don't know.

All I know is that they are way too forgiving right now.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I'm not using curbs at Nordschleife at all, because it is not recommended. The curbs there are too high to nail them.

This is false. There are many curbs that must be used at Nordschleife on a fast lap.


They are at the following corners:

-Hocheichen (three chicanes near start)
-[second curb of]Drei-Fach-Rechtes
-Kesselchen
-Wippermann
-Brünnchen [exit curbing]
-Hohenrain


http://www.fastcar.co.uk/2012/01/19/nurburgring-nordschleife-cornering-map-and-guide/

Video proof:



Edit: After watching the video, look at the wear on the curbs, the red/white paint is stripped right off in places, implying that (most likely) FF cars use the curbs a lot in those places, too, which I didn't even mention above.

 

[Johnnypenso]

This is false. There are many curbs that must be used at Nordschleife on a fast lap.

Edit: After watching the video, look at the wear on the curbs, the red/white paint is stripped right off in places, implying that (most likely) FF cars use the curbs a lot in those places, too, which I didn't even mention above.

The point isn't that you can't use some curbs at the Nurb, especially the ones backed by a flat concrete pad, the point is that in GT5 you can use pretty much any curb, anywhere at any time with at worst just a slight lift, whereas in real life you might be upside down or into the Armco. That's not realistic.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

The point isn't that you can't use some curbs at the Nurb, especially the ones backed by a flat concrete pad, the point is that in GT5 you can use pretty much any curb, anywhere at any time with at worst just a slight lift, whereas in real life you might be upside down or into the Armco. That's not realistic.

He (the guy I quoted) said "I'm not using curbs at Nordschleife at all, because it is not recommended." which is false. It is recommended - in places. Not using the curbs at all is just as wrong as using all of them.

 

[hyyperactive]

There are curbs and then there is Tommi Mäkinen


As for the real issue in gt5 it is in the physics, suspension model and tire model. There is no such thing as curb physics for example. There are bumps in the road surface and there is the "how" the physics handle those. Just like there is no oval physics or drift physics in any semi-realistic game. There are just different kind of road surfaces and elements for the car to get into and for the physics engine to then handle those situations. If the physics engine can not make the cars driftable for example then the physics engine is wrong somewhere. Real cars can drift. Just like real cars can drive over kerbs to some degree, some better than others.

Kerbs are essentially just sharp and high bumps. The cars in gt5 swallow those kind of bumps and all other kinds of bumps really really well almost to the point that you can drive every car like a rally car over the bumps. In the gt academy demo the car seemed to react more to the bumps. The reason for that is the overall improvement of the physics in general. That also make the cars less resistant to yaw and rotation and more drivable in small slides and in 4 wheel drifts that were really difficult to achieve in gt5.

There is also other area in the physics that could help with this issue. Gt5 did not simulate bump stops and I don't think cars could even bottom out. Both of these are important aspects of the physical situations when a tire goes over a sharp kerb. Going over the kerb causes the tire and the suspension to absorb kerb in very small time period which may cause the suspension to bottom out and you hit then bump stops. The bump stops are much harder than the tire or the spring which can really throw the car off balance.

 

[PepeMickey]

Those aren't really the problem, speed breakers and bumps are, in GT5 it is way to easy to cut corners and just bypass entire chicanes, remember the driver who died at LeMans earlier this year? the speed bumps on that particular corner had a big role on how the car reacted.

The same ones in GT5 don't do anything to the car's balance, it's like they're not even there, which by the way, in Forza 4 the same ones can throw you into unexpected directions.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

I agree, it's far too easy to ride curbs in GT and unrealistic, but I suspect it'll always be that way to keep the casual players from abandoning the game because realism might be too hard. Our only hope is the once mentioned "hardcore mode" but it's pure speculation what it means at this point.

We already have options for grip reduction off course/in rain, I'm sure the "real" option can cover curb effects

 

[Johnnypenso]

We already have options for grip reduction off course/in rain, I'm sure the "real" option can cover curb effects

Maybe, but the hardcore mode, which I have seen only mentioned once by someone at PD, is an unknown quantity at the moment. Could end up being a slip of the tongue or something meaningful, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[RACECAR]

There are curbs and then there is Tommi Mäkinen

That's pretty much how I use the curbs at that track on GT5. Hadn't even seen that video and its pretty much corner to corner how I attack it.

 

[CoolColJ]

real cars cut corners and curbs at the Nurb, and some sims lead us to believe your car will spin out if you do so...
Watch the lead car from 2:35 onwards

 

[smskeeter23]

That's pretty much how I use the curbs at that track on GT5. Hadn't even seen that video and its pretty much corner to corner how I attack it.

Almost word for word what I was going to say after watching that.

real cars cut corners and curbs at the Nurb, and some sims lead us to believe your car will spin out if you do so...
Watch the lead car from 2:35 onwards

So according to that statement I shouldn't expect to need to make any changes to my lines?


Like I said before I'm starting to winder if I really use as much curb as I thought based on some of the responses here.

 

[OdeFinn]

Should check Sascha Maassen Guide how Porsche is going on curbs.
(overall best Nordshleiffe introduction what I have ever seen)

 

[occasionalracer]

^^ Exactly, good video, 90% of the 'kerbs' at Nordschleife are not useable at all, in a sense that you can plow right over them with the full width of the tires, as GT5 lets you. @ITCC_Andrew mentions the key kerbs at which you can put half the car over the actual sausage, but only because of the added concrete that is there. Almost all the sausages at the ring are extremely thick and will cause very violent reactions to suspension and balance, and would infact lift the car. I'm really hoping GT6's physics gets the kerbs and bump reactions correct.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

Should check Sascha Maassen Guide how Porsche is going on curbs.
(overall best Nordshleiffe introduction what I have ever seen)

lmao "Aremburg: brake hard, late turn-in" *as someone passes inside*