Das Beste Deutsche Auto! (Final Voting For Best Korean Car)

[3-Wheel Drive]

The Porsche 911 is a fantastic car and it's hard to say anything against it, but my own nom will go to the:

BMW M3

It's been an icon in every generation, and it's one of the most sought-after cars in existence. Of course all that is true for the Porsche 911. But consider the M3 a 911 for the masses...

I figured you would vote for the M5, given your username.
I think it will be down to VW Beetle (old one), SLR McLaren, Porche 911, BMW M3, and Audi Quattro.


I would like to nominate the VW Thing and the BMW 2002.

 

[Michael88]

Der Beste Deutsche Auto

No!

Thats much better: ''Das beste Deutsche Auto''💡

However, my vote goes to Porsche, whatever the model is.

 

[vladimir]

the s-class should be on there, its still the iconic luxury vehicle used by statesmen around the planet and always features lots of new technology that will later become standard in other cars.

the benz patent motorwagen, simply because its the first (purposely) built car ever.

the 300SL, one of the most beautiful cars ever, a racecar for the street, gullwing doors, revolutionary then and an absolute classic today.

the g-wagon, the true SUV.

the sprinter...if you cruising down the autobahn at 100mph and suddenly your rear view mirror is all white, its most probably a sprinter.

maybach 62, since no other german car packs this much luxury.

the smart fortwo, probably the smallest proper car you can buy.

audi urquattro, the quattro that started it all.

audi rs6, the iconic rocket betwixt the waggons.

nsu ro80, the first rotary.

bmw 1500, the first "new class" bmw which started all that bmw is known for today, sporty saloons.

bmw 2002 turbo, the first production car with a turbocharger. bmws most powerful vehicle then, released during the oil crisis. a menacing car with "turbo" written on the front spoiler in mirrored fashion in order to intimidate other roadusers and the only car to ever to provoke a debate in the german parliament.

the M5 since it was the first of the super saloons and every new incarnation was the best of its class.

bmw m1, the first M which put the M-gmbh on the road. the first german supercar.

opel, thats a hard one...maybe the opel gt, which is rather famous over here, the opel manta, which is rather infamous over here or the opel speedster, which isn't really an opel anyway.

ford, also difficult, maybe the capri or escort.

wiesmann roadster, an m3 beneath a gorgeous shell, what more do you want?

VW, guess the golf should be on and the beetle. oh and the T2 "bulli" campercan should definately be on.

porsche, the 911 of course, the 959. maybe the carrera gt. the r8 if racecars are allowed.

weineck cobra, a cobra with 13 litres of discplacement, 1200 horsepower...crazy!

 

[Poverty]

Like what? 4wd in a road car, sorry but the Jenson Interceptor FF beat the quattro to that one by quite a margin. It was introduced in 1966 with 4wd and ABS.

If were gonna go back into history and get technical i will claim that ferdind porsche made the first 4WD car, and he made the first hybrid at the same time.

The quattro road car was not capable of beating the sand-dunes of the sahara in stock road form, then again nothing short of a 'real' off-roader could, so in answer to your question I would say Land Rover and/or Jeep.

Which audi are you talking about, because a couple months back I belive audi took a A6 quattro to some big dune to show off its quattro system.

Now keep in mind that I am a huge quattro fan, it was a great car that popularised 4wd and turbos on road cars, but it was not the first with either of these and quite simply the Germans have built better cars since.

At the time the quattro was extraordinarly advanced, it can keep up with STI's and Evos of today, and obviously as time goes on better cars will be made.

 

[El Jarretto]

I will be voting for the Beetle. It's the most beutiful car I have ever laid eyes on, and always will. It's EXACTLY what I like, (Lightweight RR or even MR cars) and it's one of the most amazing cars ever. It was originally designed in the 30's and 40's, and was in production until 1998, without even changing the chassis. It has so much potential as well.

 

[Dave A]

The Quattro can't keep up with Impreza's and Evo's today, that's a house wives tale so to speak. It's still a quick car, but in a race a lower spec Impreza can beat it as has been demonstrated on Fith Gear a few years ago (it's worth noting since then both the Impreza and Evo have got faster on a track). As for Ferdinand Porsche building the first 4wd car is not true either, the first EVER 4wd car was the Spyker 60hp built in 1903, after that in 1911 FWD ( a company based in the US) built a 4wd truck which eventually made it's way into US military and British army service, it was called the Model B truck. The American Baham Jeep came next, though it's better known as the Willies Jeep. The 1966 Jensen FF was the first sports road car ever produced that used 4wd. Subaru produced the Leone in 1972, which became the best selling 4wd car in the world, and in 1980 AMC built the 4wd Eagle and Audi built the Quattro. No the Quattro was not the first 4wd road car, it missed that by 14 years, as for the first ever 4wd car, that was in 1903.

 

[Tornado]

If were gonna go back into history and get technical i will claim that ferdind porsche made the first 4WD car, and he made the first hybrid at the same time.

The System-Lohner? Are you seriously suggesting that a car with 4 independent motors is anything like the quattro system.

At the time the quattro was extraordinarly advanced, it can keep up with STI's and Evos of today, and obviously as time goes on better cars will be made.

What?! Are you aware of the words you are saying? The only Rally cars of that era that can keep up with even the base Wrex is the Ford RS200 and it's similar brethren. Not even the quattro sport is anywheres near fast enough to do that.
Why you came into this thread starting crap is beyond me, because not only did niether me nor Scaff rag on Audi in anyways (because we didn't. We told the truth. The Rallye 037 handed the quattros ass to it on anything that wasn't snow and dirt, and the quattro Sport was butchered by Peugeout and Lancia later on), you are also acting like we dismissed the entire idea behind the system as a bad idea.

 

[Poverty]

The Quattro can't keep up with Impreza's and Evo's today, that's a house wives tale so to speak. It's still a quick car, but in a race a lower spec Impreza can beat it as has been demonstrated on Fith Gear a few years ago (it's worth noting since then both the Impreza and Evo have got faster on a track).

The quattro sport can keep up with those 250bhp STi's and theres a video of it keeping up with a Evo 6.

The System-Lohner? Are you seriously suggesting that a car with 4 independent motors is anything like the quattro system.

Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? Ihavent compared it to any 4wd system, all I said was that it was arguably the first 4wd car to which point I was utterly wrong.

What?! Are you aware of the words you are saying? The only Rally cars of that era that can keep up with even the base Wrex

A MK1 audi TT sport is faster than the base WRX and the MK2 TT with 200hp and FWD is faster aswell.. These days the WRX is pretty slow, and this is the opinion taken from a Impreza forum. The Quattro sport would beat it easily.

Why you came into this thread starting crap is beyond me, because not only did niether me nor Scaff rag on Audi in anyways

What are you taking offense to? I dont feel as if anyone is ragging on the UrQuattro.

We told the truth. The Rallye 037 handed the quattros ass to it on anything that wasn't snow and dirt, and the quattro Sport was butchered by Peugeout and Lancia later on

Go read what I wrote earlier, I fully well acknowledge that fact.

you are also acting like we dismissed the entire idea behind the system as a bad idea.

No im not.

As for Ferdinand Porsche building the first 4wd car is not true either, the first EVER 4wd car was the Spyker 60hp built in 1903, after that in 1911 FWD ( a company based in the US) built a 4wd truck which eventually made it's way into US military and British army service, it was called the Model B truck. The American Baham Jeep came next, though it's better known as the Willies Jeep. The 1966 Jensen FF was the first sports road car ever produced that used 4wd. Subaru produced the Leone in 1972, which became the best selling 4wd car in the world, and in 1980 AMC built the 4wd Eagle and Audi built the Quattro. No the Quattro was not the first 4wd road car, it missed that by 14 years, as for the first ever 4wd car, that was in 1903.

That doesnt seem quite correct.

The History Of Four Wheel Drives

# 1898: Latil (France) making front wheel drive units and then 4x4.
# 1898: Tatra starts manufacturing.
# 1900: Ferdinand Porsche's La Toujours Contente is battery-powered with 4 electric motors, one per wheel. He later patents the Mixte transmission: a petrol engine drives a dynamo and electric motors drive the wheels (too expensive for the day).
# 1902: Spyker (Dutch) full-time four wheel drive car built. Exhibited at the Paris Motor Show in December 1903 [Sco61].
# 1907: Felix and Norman Caldwell of South Australia apply for a patent for four wheel drive plus four wheel steering; they go on to build Caldwell Vale 4x4 trucks with Henry Vale.
# 1911: FWD sells its first 4x4 [Bal87].
# 1913: Jeffrey Quad 4X4 truck goes into production.
# 1915: Big Lizzie road train (Au).
# 1917: First Oshkosh four wheel drive truck [Bal88].
# 1922, December 17: Citroen half-tracks leave from Touggourt in Algeria to cross the Sahara Desert.
# 1924, December 28: Citroen half-tracks leave to traverse Africa.
# 1929: AEC start to build AWD trucks in conjunction with FWD (UK).
# 1931-1932: Citroen-Haardt expedition, using Citroen half-tracks, follows part of Marco-Polo's route from Beirut to Beijing.
# 1932: Miller 4x4 racing cars at Indianapolis.
# 1934: AEC road train (one of three built) brought to Australia. It consisted of an 8x8 prime-mover and two 8-wheel self-tracking trailers.
# 1934: Dodge start building 4WD trucks (- George Miles).
# 1934: Prototype PX-33 four wheel drive car built for the Japanese government; the car did not go into production (Mitsubishi). Thanks to Balazs Toth.
# 1938: GAZ 61 - Russian 4x4.
# 1940: Jeep specification issued.
# 1940-1941: Bantam build 2700 light 4x4s, early "Jeeps".
# 1941-1945: Ford and Willys-Overland build 700,000 General Purpose vehicles for WWII (GP becomes Jeep).
# 1946, October 10: Unimog introduced (- H. J. Feil).
# 1948: Series-1 Land-Rover released.
# 1948: Ford release first of the F-Series vehicles.
# 1950: Ford GPA, or amphibious Jeep `Half Safe' crosses the Atlantic ocean (I am not making this up).
# 1951: First Toyota Landcruiser built, as the `BJ Jeep', the LandCruiser name came in 1954.
# 1951 - NAPCO (Northwestern Auto Parts Company) starts to produce 4x4 conversion units. The earliest documentable truck to be converted by NAPCO was a 1951 Chevy 3/4 ton owned by Butch Gehrig of Odell, Oregon.
# 1954-1956: Amphibious Jeep `La Tortuga' "drives" from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego.
# 1955-1956: London to Singapore overland (except for Channel!) 2 x Land-Rovers.
# 1958: First Toyota LandCruisers imported into Australia.
# 1959: Haflinger by Steyr-Daimler-Puch.
# 1960: A Jeep and a Land-Rover traverse the Darien Gap.
# 1961: Stirling Moss driving a Ferguson Project 99 (P99) with the Ferguson 4WD system wins the Oulton Park Gold-Cup race.
# 1964, 17 July: Bluebird (4WD) raises the land speed record to 403 mph.
# 1966: Jensen FF all wheel drive road car is put into production (until 1971), using a Ferguson Formula 4WD system with centre diff' and viscous coupling ?? --> (the FF also had ABS brakes) - John Wild.
# 1970: Range Rover released - luxury full-time 4WD.
# 1971: Ford Falcon XY ute 4WD (Australia)
# 1971: Four wheel drive on the Moon
# 1971-1972: British Trans-Americas Range Rover expedition.
# 1974: Subaru Leone L-series - four wheel drive passenger car.
# 1979: AMC produce the Eagle 4x4 car
# 1981: Humvee or Hummer (HMMWV - High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle) specification issued.
# 1981: Audi revolutionize rallying with the Quattro 4WD rally car.
# 1981: Porsche must have been watching Audi as they showed a Porsche 911 AWD concept car at the Frankfurt Motor Show [Porsche].
# 1983: Land Rover 110, coil-sprung, full-time 4WD.
# 1984: A Porsche 911 AWD wins the Paris Dakar rally.
# 1986: Porsche 959 AWDs finish 1, 2 and 6 in the Paris Dakar rally.
# 1994: Range Rover completely revised.
# 1996: Jeep Wrangler gets coil springs!

 

[Dave A]

The quattro sport can keep up with those 250bhp STi's and theres a video of it keeping up with a Evo 6.

Oh theres a video of it, right, that must mean it really CAN keep up. The bottom line is in NO, and I do mean NO track time comparisons does it kep up, nor did it in the Fith Gear test, and that was against an Evo at least two generations ago.

A MK1 audi TT sport is faster than the base WRX and the MK2 TT with 200hp and FWD is faster aswell.. These days the WRX is pretty slow, and this is the opinion taken from a Impreza forum. The Quattro sport would beat it easily.

Err, can you back that up? the TT is not a fast car by any means, the MK1 anyway. On topGear the TT 3.2 V6 was slower than the Focus RS, Renaultsport Megane and the BMW 130i, and that's the top spec TT. Yes it was in the dry. The Audi TT 1.8 225 managed an 8'49 at the Nordschliefe, a whole 12 seconds slower than the Subaru Impreza GT turbo taken there in 2000.

That doesnt seem quite correct.

Ok fair enough, I was using wikipedia which didn't mention anything before the Spyker, but that still doen't make Ferdinand Porsches car the first, it makes it the Latil sytstem that was used by Tatra in 1898.

 

[Poverty]

Err, can you back that up? the TT is not a fast car by any means, the MK1 anyway. On topGear the TT 3.2 V6 was slower than the Focus RS, Renaultsport Megane and the BMW 130i, and that's the top spec TT. Yes it was in the dry. The Audi TT 1.8 225 managed an 8'49 at the Nordschliefe, a whole 12 seconds slower than the Subaru Impreza GT turbo taken there in 2000.

The MK2 TT is blisteringly fast. Check my hockenheim sport auto thread for confirmation of that, the base 200hp FWD version was only just under 2 secs behind the Z4M.

As for the MK1 TT the audi TT quattro sport (the version with no rear seats) is meant to be faster than the BMW M3 around the 'ring. I wills ee if I can find a time for it.

The 3.2 V6 is a disgrace really. Its more of a crusing engine than anything else.

he bottom line is in NO, and I do mean NO track time comparisons does it kep up, nor did it in the Fith Gear test, and that was against an Evo at least two generations ago.

The newer evos are complete monsters, but you have to remeber that the quattro sport packs 300bhp. In the old top gear the Evo 6 beats it, but the Tiff said the differential had seen better days, and that surely some horses have escaped the engine over the years.

 

[Dave A]

As for the MK1 TT the audi TT quattro sport (the version with no rear seats) is meant to be faster than the BMW M3 around the 'ring. I wills ee if I can find a time for it.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that that is bull. Of note the the TT 3.2 V6 is faster than the 2.8 225 quattro. Come back with facts.

 

[Tornado]

The quattro sport can keep up with those 250bhp STi's and theres a video of it keeping up with a Evo 6.

O RLY?
Audi quattro 1980-1987
0-60 MPH: 7.3 seconds.
o-100 MPH: 20.7 seconds.
Top Speed: 135 MPH
Audi quattro 1987-1989
0-60 MPH: 6.3 seconds
0-100 MPH: N/A
Top Speed: 135 MPH
Audi quattro 20V 1989-1991
0-60 MPH: 6.3 seconds
0-100 MPH: 17.7 seconds
Top Speed: 141 MPH
Subaru Impreza WRX JDM
0-60 MPH: 5.8 seconds
0-100 MPH: N/A
Top Speed: 140 BHP
Subaru Impreza WRX USDM (which has 10 more BHP than the quattro 20V, but weighs over 100 kg more.)
0-60 MPH: 6.0 seconds
0-100 MPH: N/A
Top Speed: 140 MPH


Audi quattro Sport (which really shouldn't count, as it wasn't a production car)
0-60 MPH: 4.8 seconds
0-100 MPH: 12.6 seconds
Top Speed: 155 MPH
Subaru Impreza WRX STi JDM
0-60 MPH: 4.8 seconds
0-100 MPH 12.4 seconds
Top Speed: 158 MPH
Subaru Impreza WRX STi Euro Model
0-60 MPH: 5.1 seconds
0-100 MPH: 12.6 seconds
Top Speed: 158 MPH
Subaru Impreza WRX STi USDM
0-60 MPH: 4.5 seconds
0-100 MPH: 12.1 seconds
Top Speed: 160 MPH
These are funny because they all wiegh more than 160 kg more than the quattro Sport, yet all have less BHP.
Mitubishi Lancer Evolution VI
0-60 MPH: 4.4 seconds
0-100 MPH: 11.2 seconds
Top Speed: N/A

 

[Poverty]

I can tell you with 100% certainty that that is bull****.

I wouldnt be too sure about that, from what Ive read the quattro sport is meant to be majorly overlooked, and the M3 is ageing with plenty faster cars out there.

Also I belive that the guy that sorted the handling for BMW and porsche had his hand in the development.

O RLY?

There you have proved it yourself that the quattro sport is faster than many scoobies and can keep up with others. Whats your argument?

Im sure if you stuck lighter alloys and better tires on Ur Quattro it would run even better. Maybe the tests and videos Ive seen of the Ur quattro sport had these modernisation modifications done to them?

 

[Dave A]

The TT Quattro sport specs are as follows...
Weight - 1390 kilo / 3064.4 lbs
Engine - Straight 4
Engine Location - Front , transversely mounted
Displacement - 1.781 liter / 108.7 cu in
Valvetrain - 5 valves / cylinder, DOHC
Fuel feed - Fuel injection
Aspiration - Turbo
Gearbox - 6 speed Manual
Drive - Quattro all wheel drive
Power - 240 bhp / 179 KW @ 5700 rpm
Torque - 230 Nm / 170 ft lbs @ 2300 rpm
BHP/Liter - 135 bhp / liter
Power to weight ratio - 0.17 bhp / kg
Top Speed - 250 km/h / 155 mph(limited)
0-60 mph Acceleration - 5.8 s

The 2001 BMW M3 will beat that, considerably on the track. Thee Quattro sport was designed to beat the Nissan 350Z and Mazda RX8, not the BMW M3.

 

[Tornado]

There you have proved it yourself that the quattro sport is faster than many scoobies and can keep up with others. Whats your argument?

Im sure if you stuck lighter alloys and better tires on Ur Quattro it would run even better. Maybe the tests and videos Ive seen of the Ur quattro sport had these modernisation modifications done to them?

Yes. The Sport quattro, that "production" car with only 214 made, with roughly 160 of those actually being sold to people, is faster than 1 Subaru Impreza that I compared it to, which is the overladen pig of a Euro Model. Noticce how the USDM model which weighs over 220 kg more than the quattro sport completely decimates it, as does the Evo 6.

 

[Poverty]

The TT Quattro sport specs are as follows...
Weight - 1390 kilo / 3064.4 lbs
Engine - Straight 4
Engine Location - Front , transversely mounted
Displacement - 1.781 liter / 108.7 cu in
Valvetrain - 5 valves / cylinder, DOHC
Fuel feed - Fuel injection
Aspiration - Turbo
Gearbox - 6 speed Manual
Drive - Quattro all wheel drive
Power - 240 bhp / 179 KW @ 5700 rpm
Torque - 230 Nm / 170 ft lbs @ 2300 rpm
BHP/Liter - 135 bhp / liter
Power to weight ratio - 0.17 bhp / kg
Top Speed - 250 km/h / 155 mph(limited)
0-60 mph Acceleration - 5.8 s

The 2001 BMW M3 will beat that, considerably on the track.

Maybe walter rohl was driving the audi TT quattro sport hence the outcome. I wouldnt say it is a slow car though at all, and I can quote some UK M3 owners or ex-M3 owners who say that the M3 behaves terribley on certain roads and tracks, making it difficult to put the power to use. Even Clarkson states so to the point he said he disliked the 2001 M3.

Yes. The Sport quattro, that "production" car with only 214 made, with roughly 160 of those actually being sold to people, is faster than 1 Subaru Impreza that I compared it to, which is the overladen pig of a Euro Model. Noticce how the USDM model which weighs over 220 kg more than the quattro sport completely decimates it, as does the Evo 6.

I dont know what world you are living in but point four of a second slower than the Japanese to 60 isnt decimating at all. And tell me how old is the Ur Quattro again? And I would like to know the source of your figures if you would be so kind. I only would like the source for the last 2 cars on your list and the Quattro sport.

 

[Dave A]

Even still, it's not going to come close to the M3 at the Ring, the Ring is a fast track, the M3 is a notably faster car. Theres absolutely nothing to say there's been any recorded lap of the TT Quattro sport at the ring, if it has lapped the ring and been that fast, nothing, nada, zip. I've checked several sources for lap times in the last 15 mins and none reffer to that TT. Of note the M3 CSL lapped the ring in 7'50 the normal M3 would be maybe 15 secs slower. The TT 1.8 225 was 1 min slower than the CSL, that TT quattro sport is a modified TT 1.8 225, a bit lighter and an extra 15bhp. But even with Rohl at the wheel (bersides the fact he's Porsches test driver, not Audi's), that's not going to do that.

 

[Poverty]

Even still, it's not going to come close to the M3 at the Ring, the Ring is a fast track, the M3 is a notably faster car. Theres absolutely nothing to say there's been any recorded lap of the TT Quattro sport at the ring, if it has lapped the ring and been that fast, nothing, nada, zip. I've checked several sources for lap times in the last 15 mins and none reffer to that TT. Of note the M3 CSL lapped the ring in 7'50 the normal M3 would be maybe 15 secs slower. The TT 1.8 225 was 1 min slower than the CSL, that TT quattro sport is a modified TT 1.8 225, a bit lighter and an extra 15bhp. But even with Rohl at the wheel, that's not going to do that.

The normal 1.8T was a terrible handling car fullstop. Look at the difference between the CSL and the normal M3, its huge, why cant the quattro TT sport do the same? Walter Rohl also test drives audi's to this day

CSL 7'50
8'22 - BMW M3 E46 - 2000

 

[Tornado]

I dont know what world you are living in but point for of a second slower than the Japanese to 60 isnt decimating at all. And tell me how old is the Ur Quattro again? And I would like to know the source of your figures if you would be so kind. I only would like the source for the last 2 cars on your list and the Quattro sport.

Old enough that you saying that either the normal quattro or the Sport could outrun the Wrex and Evo was a stupid thing to say. And here you go. All confirmed by Autocar, Motor Trend or Car and Driver. I expect that I will now get some lecture on how it is unfair to compare the quattro to the Wrex and the Sport to the Wrex STi. It really is too bad you brought it up.

 

[Poverty]

Old enough that you saying that either the normal quattro or the Sport could outrun the Wrex and Evo was a stupid thing to say. And here you go. All confirmed by Autocar, Motor Trend or Car and Driver.

I didnt say that the normal quattro could outrun the Sti's at all. Your putting words in my mouth yet again. I would only claim the the Quattro sport having the capability.

As for quoting autozine, isnt that kinda the same as asking me asking some blokes opinion in the pub because hes read a couple books or magazines?

I expect that I will now get some lecture on how it is unfair to compare the quattro to the Wrex and the Sport to the Wrex STi. It really is too bad you brought it up.

Why would I do that? Why is it unfair? As far as im concerned going by the figures you posted the Quattro sport holds its own against these newcomers, and im sure evryone else here can see that aswell, doing precisely what I said....being able to keep up with Sti's.

I could always bring up the argument as to why the USDM impreza stats are unreliable and unachievable for the evryday driver, and also the fact that the JDM impreza is FASTER than the USDM, but because of US publications style of recording figures it gives skewed impressions to people like you.

 

[Tornado]

I didnt say that the normal quattro could outrun the Sti's at all. Your putting words in my mouth yet again. I would only claim the the Quattro sport having the capability.

So I refer to your original post:

At the time the quattro was extraordinarly advanced, it can keep up with STI's and Evos of today, and obviously as time goes on better cars will be made.

To which I proved you wrong. So you tried to make it sound like I was wrong in comparing the faster WRX to the stock quattro, and istead should be comparing the faster WRX STi to the stock quattro Sport.
Just because your precious quattro has been shown in a light that doesn't make it god doesn't mean you have to lie about it.

As for quoting autozine, isnt that kinda the same as asking me asking some blokes opinion in the pub because hes read a couple books or magazines?

I wonder how funny you would find that statement if you understood irony.

I could always bring up the argument as to why the USDM impreza stats are unreliable and unachievable for the evryday driver, and also the fact that the JDM impreza is FASTER than the USDM, but because of US publications style of recording figures it gives skewed impressions to people like you.

"To people like me?" The non-Audi faithful? And no, the American STi is not slower than the Japanese one. It has more BHP, and a hell of a lot more torque, not to mention a bigger (and thus, lighter) engine (which equals less lag).

I would only claim the the Quattro sport having the capability.

Which it doesn't. So stop changing your arguements.

 

[Poverty]

So I refer to your original post:

I wasnt specific. There are several quattro models. Nice try with your cheap shots though.

To which I proved you wrong. So you tried to make it sound like I was wrong in comparing the faster WRX to the stock quattro, and istead should be comparing the faster WRX STi to the stock quattro Sport.
Just because your precious quattro has been shown in a light that doesn't make it god doesn't mean you have to lie about it.

Look at the own figures you posted. In every instance the Quattro keeps up with the newer japenese models. Your in denial, for some reason you seem to think 0.5 of a second is a huge margin. In most cases if the two cars were to race to 60 the better driver would win.

I wonder how funny you would find that statement if you understood irony.

Right back at ya. I think I might go ask my 13 year old next door neighbor for his professional opinion about vipers later cause I saw him with a dodge viper book

"To people like me?" The non-Audi faithful? And no, the American STi is not slower than the Japanese one. It has more BHP, and a hell of a lot more torque, not to mention a bigger (and thus, lighter) engine which equals less lag).

We GET the JDM impreza in the UK along with a UK spec STI. Its packing 350hp officially, but according to a owner on a scooby forum his dynoed 360hp. USDM version faster my arse

And thing about this. US publication figures are always alot faster than euro ones, yet I have a reason to belive that guy that writes about cars hes never driven from his bedroom got his UrQuattro figures from a European source. Two different sources that didnt come from the manufacturer is very bad practice.

Which it doesn't. So stop changing your arguements

Explain why it doesnt using the unreliable figures you provided thank you.

*EDIT*

Stop this now tornado, I will happily carry on this discussion but not in this thread. We are ruining the discussion and I bet most people wont appreciate it. Make a new thread and I shall meet you there.

 

[Tornado]

I wasnt specific. There are several quattro models. Nice try with your cheap shots though.

Dually noted, and nice job trying to shift the blame onto me.

Look at the own figures you posted. In every instance the Quattro keeps up with the newer japenese models. Your in denial, for some reason you seem to think 0.5 of a second is a huge margin. In most cases if the two cars were to race to 60 the better driver would win.

Except, in the quattro Sport's case, there never would be this mythical drag race as only 164 people own them. And in the normal quattro's case, any idiot in a normal Wrex would creme the quattro. I do beleive 1.3 seconds of an advantage makes it go past "Not keeping up," especially when the car that pulled 7.3 was by far the most common. But as long as you are pulling this "Better Driver" crap, I can show you a hole bunch of idiots with Chevy Camaro's and Mustang Cobra's that would also outrun your prescious quattro, and do it without AWD.

Right back at ya. I think I might go ask my 13 year old next door neighbor for his professional about vipers later cause I saw him with a dodge viper book

The point train left it's station and you missed it.

We GET the JDM impreza in the UK. Its packing 350hp officially, but according to a owner on a scooby forum his dynoed 360hp. USDM version faster my arse

Right. And I'm sure the car they sell in Europe is the exact same one they sell in Japan. Definately not changes in boost pressure like every other Japanese export car (3000GT VR-4, Toyota Supra RZ, Nissan 300ZX. I could go on if need be.).
I'm sure that the Euro version doesn't suffer from the most rubber-bands of power delivery since the 935-78, which is so definately what our STi suffers from with it's full liter of displacement more than yours, which would technically make it a far easier car to get performance out of.

And thing about this. US publication figures are always alot faster than euro ones, yet I have a reason to belive that guy that writes about cars hes never driven from his bedroom got his UrQuattro figures from a European source. Two different sources that didnt come from the manufacturer is very bad practice.

Again: Irony. Look it up. When he's quoting tested figures, that doesn't make him wrong now, does it? And I'd like to see Autocar test the American STi...oh wait, Autocar is a European magazine. I forgot. And everyone knows how reliable official sources can be. You know, like how the Lamborghini Countach could go 200 MPH.

Explain why it doesnt using the unreliable figures you provided thank you.

Your tirade of ironic sayings never ceases to end. I posted proven figures by respectable automotive magazines. You've posted wet dreams and what some guys on a Subaru forum say.
Edit: My god, I'm turning into M5Power.

 

[IMADreamer]

I nominate the 300sl. Simply for the fact that I think it is the most beautiful car ever produced. The one time in my life I saw one of these in person it took my breath away.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Yeah, you folks were right on the "das" thing. I just looked it up in my German book from class, and I was wrong. I think the part that confused me was that "wagen" was masculine. My apologies, we've been on holiday since early May...

---

I'm surprised no-one has brought up the Opel Kadett, lol. I think it is still reguarded by Car and Driver as the worst car they have ever driven in the nearly 52 year history of the magazine. Ironically, many of the GM products we drive today were designed by Opel... Go figure!

---

I know it isn't a production model, but it is one of my favorites:

The 1938 Auto-Union Type D Grand Prix Car:

...Just thought I would throw it in...

 

[neanderthal]

theres quite a few
bmw 2002 of course (gave us the first sports sedan. cars like M3s wouldnt exist without it.)
bmw 3.0cs (aslo easily a nod for most beautiful car ever)
BMW 700 (not quite a minicar like the isetta, but still powered by a motorcylcle engine, allowed BMW to progress to the neue klasse)
bmw M1
BMW neue klasse
BMW E30
BMW E34
BMW E39

mercedes just about anything
W108 300SEL 6.3 (how you like a 300hp four seater in the sixites that could flat haul ass and coddle you in luxury at the same time?)
gwagen,
600,
W114,
W123,
W201 (190E, a revolutionary little car in and off itself, but constantly overshadowed by the E30)
W124,
amg hammer,
W140,
R129,
unimog,
500SSK,
W211 E320CDI bluetec (current e class diesel)

mk 1 VW golf
vw bus/ truck

porsche 911 (993 last of the air cooled porches)
carrera GT

audi 1000 (this car introduced a lot of innovations)
ur quattro
NSU Ro80 (first real application of rotary engine)

bolded cars are the top nominees. check them out on wikipedia

my vote has to go to the mercedes 600

 

[niky]

Argh... the number of choices are making my head spin!

My shortlist already has these cars on it:

Audi Quattro - not the best rally car ever, but definitely made Sporty AWD mainstream, in the eyes of many people.
Audi R8 / R10 - the LeMans monster? the diesel LeMans monster? There's a good reason why other racing teams hate Audi...
BMW 2002ti - no 2002, no 3 series, no M3, no sports sedan arms race. Any questions?
BMW M5 - first generation, arguably created the word "sleeper"
MB 300SL - arguably one of the first "supercars"... at least, as far as Europe sees it
MB S-Class - defined the word "luxury"
VW Beetle - should win by default, probably the only car in history more important than the model T... with one of the longest shelf-lives ever (1938 - 2003... sixty five damn years!) but there are so many nice German cars, it's a crapshoot...
VW Golf - The European Civic... only it came first.

And guys, RE: Audi Quattro? please, not the time or place. A Ford RS200 would kick its ass. Of course, that is until the Ford's overstressed engine blew up.

 

[Scaff]

In regard to the entire Audi quattro issue, can we please keep this nice and civil guys.

My input into the discussion (and always keep in mind its a car I have the utmost respect for), but the Ur quattro is not a competative car against the modern breed of road legal rally homologation specials.

Then again neither are such drivers classics as the BMW M3 (E30) and the Lancia Delta Intergralle. Every comparative test done with the older cars has shown them to have lost ground to the new generation. This does nothing to diminish the effect they had when first launched, but they are all now looking old.

Anyone who believes otherwise is viewing the world through very rose tinted glasses.

The Ur quattro had a very advanced 4WD system in its day, but by modern standards its very basic and not that efficent. The other issue the Ur suffers from is a problem Audi still suffer from today (and they are quite happy to admit as much) is the fact that they have stuck with a longitudinal engine layout with either fwd or 4wd drivetrains. This gives you two choices, either eat seriously into cabin space or mount the engine well over the front wheel line.

Well the first option is a no-go for any production car, however the second leads to a very nasty handling balance of very heavy understeer on the limit. An issue that has troubled every modern Audi since before the quattro, Audi themselves admit it is an area that they must address before they will become real challengers to the likes of the M3. Keep in mind that this is not just my opinion (and its not opinion in regard to the balance issue - thats the laws of physics) but Audi's as well.

Its why taking straight 0-60, etc performance figures actually mean very little to real world performance, all modern Audis suffer from an inherant severe understeer on the limit. Particularly on track or in the dry.

I would have to ask exactly how many Audi's Poverty has driven? As I have quite a bit of experience across the Audi range, from the A2 across to the likes of the TT (most versions) and up to an RS6. An all of them share one thing in common, the nose-lead bias. The TT I still rate as one of the single most disappointing cars I have ever driven, its lacks almost any form of interaction for the driver, seemingly unwilling to let you know what is going on, added to an almost complete lack of adjustability near the limit. It may look great (no question from me on that), but as a drivers car it fails.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Poverty]

An all of them share one thing in common, the nose-lead bias.

So do the scoobies, and infact most 4WD cars do, they can engineer it out, but it would the system would then become incapable off roading like a X5, and it would lose other advantages such as being faster than RWD when the cars powerful, and on a twisty road.

Im not trying to make the audi into anything there not, but some people are taking some things a little too serious, such as for example MB reliability, which is still better than many mainstream auto manufacturers yet is totally blown up.

all modern Audis suffer from an inherant severe understeer on the limit.

I disagree. Most cars have some degree of understeer, but the later audi models no longer suffer severly from it, and on a race track it could be a hinderance, but in different enviroments the added 4wd characteristics and stability is a positive.

 

[Alex.]

Mercedes AMG CLK GTR! love that car! and the engine sound is monstorous!