Democracy

  • Thread starter Danoff
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Danoff

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I’m losing my faith in democracy. How can democracy work when it requires people to vote at such an informed level?

Capitalism works through greed. It uses the knowledge than man has evolved greedy to create a fair and growth-producing economic system. The more greedy you are, the more you contribute to the world. Capitalism is our economic system.

Our government system of course is Democracy. Democracy relies on man’s knowledge and understanding of the way our economy works. It relies on the fact that when wrongs are committed people will go out and vote to right those wrongs… but also that they know what the wrongs are. It requires that people understand what the right answer is. And they don’t! They’re greedy! So they vote whatever is in their best interest - which destroys capitalism.

They vote to take money from the rich and give it to the poor. And because the vast majority of the people are poor… they get their way. The result is a strangle on capitalism.

They vote to keep their illegal immigrant workers or to support their illegal immigrant families and the result is a chocking of the capitalist system.

They vote to force taxes on the minority rich to give themselves poorly regulated health care, food, medicine, and every other thing that they can think of that is required to keep them alive but which they should provide themselves. And they degrade the capitalist system further.

Democracy then encourages politicians to tell the people what they want to hear. That the rich are not paying their share and that that’s why we have problems (never that we’re spending too much on you… that would lose votes). The result is elected officials who help destroy our economy.

So how can democracy work when it doesn’t take into account the nature of man, and what else is there? I can’t think of anything more free and fair than democracy, but it doesn’t seem to be working. I’m losing my faith in our system. I don't like being cynical, someone please help me get it back.
 
Wish I could help you, danoff, but I think I share your cynicism. Democracy destroys capitalism because of the nature of capitalism, which is, as you said, greed. Because of our innate greed, based on our history of evolution, capitalism works and democracy destroys capitalism.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe democracy would work if people realized that they should vote to preserve capitalism since capitalism allows them to be greedy. So voting capitalist would be the greedy thing to do. Unfortunately that doesn't happen because of greedy lazy people who don't want to participate in the capitalist market and only want others to provide everything for them. So democracy would work if everyone wanted to participate in capitalism. But huge masses of poor people don't want to.

So greed works for both capitalism and democracy, unless you have greed combined with laziness.
 
I can't find anything wrong in your thinking Danoff. I agree. The big problem is the longer it goes on the worse it will get. Hopefully the pendelum will someday swinng back the other way. Either that or we will have to figure out another way.
 
Originally posted by Mopar Muscle
i'm a half assed philosipher does that count?

in a perfect society, communism would work


hmmm....thats gonna take some convincing to the Yanks in here...thier society is based on commercialism, capitalism, and oh yes....democracy....but if you commit a crime you'll get the death penalty....very democratic...
 
Originally posted by Mopar Muscle
in a perfect society, communism would work
Perfect society?

And even in a "perfect" society, I still as hell wouldn't want anybody taking what I earned.
 
And even in a "perfect" society, I still as hell wouldn't want anybody taking what I earned.

Agreed. What I'm talking about is the fact that people vote socialist bothers me. The majority are voting away the minority's freedom... I don't like that. I'm not going to go along with advocating communism (which is a worse version of what I'm complaining about now).

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this and what I've decided is that we need a new constitutional ammendment. The ammendment should say that no person's income shall be taxed by the federal government (not that this leaves lots of room for sales tax). Hehe, or, since that's not ever going to happen the new ammendment should say:

"No person's income shall be taxed at a higher percentage than any other person's."

This of course would still leave the rich paying for the majority of everything, but least it would make the poor think twice before lobbying for federal programs because they couldn't just make someone else pay for it (at least not all of it).
 
Definitely. 👍

"Ooh, he got lucky and made a bunch of money, so he should share it!"

What a load of you-know-what.

More on-topic though, I honestly can't think of anything better than democracy (it doesn't help though that I'm not too familiar with the various "systems" out there). It just seems too hard to protect people from stupidity. :banghead:
 
Originally posted by Sage
Perfect society?

And even in a "perfect" society, I still as hell wouldn't want anybody taking what I earned.

in a perfect society no will take your hard earned cash....they'll all be earning the same as you.
 
Originally posted by TurboSmoke
in a perfect society no will take your hard earned cash....they'll all be earning the same as you.
...because someone took my hard earned cash to make sure that someone who doesn't work as hard can still earn as much as I do.

I can't believe people still buy this "enforced equality" crap.
 
Originally posted by Sage
Perfect society?

And even in a "perfect" society, I still as hell wouldn't want anybody taking what I earned.

They already do. "They" are called the U.S. Gov't. With all it's special interest groups and all the people we support on welfare and all the salaries compensation packages for all the politicians that are supposedly looking our for out interest. Our Government and everyone in it is a joke. Not a funny joke though unless you are part of it. In that case it must be hilarious.
 
in a perfect society no will take your hard earned cash....they'll all be earning the same as you.

Why?

I don't understand how that makes society perfect. The value of every job is not the same. Some jobs require less skill and less work than others. Why would a perfect society require unequal jobs to have equal benefits. In a society like that, the goal would be to find a job that required as little effort as possible so that you could spend as much of your time as possible on your hobbies. That sounds like the recipe for dissaster. Let's see if history agrees.

Russia was destroyed ECONOMICALLY!
Places where capitalism reigns like America and Hong Kong are economic centers of the world.

I'm going to go ahead and say that anyone who believes communism is a perfect society is doing so in spite of all of the evidence.
 
Originally posted by danoff
Why?

I don't understand how that makes society perfect. The value of every job is not the same. Some jobs require less skill and less work than others. Why would a perfect society require unequal jobs to have equal benefits. In a society like that, the goal would be to find a job that required as little effort as possible so that you could spend as much of your time as possible on your hobbies. That sounds like the recipe for dissaster. Let's see if history agrees.

Russia was destroyed ECONOMICALLY!
Places where capitalism reigns like America and Hong Kong are economic centers of the world.

I'm going to go ahead and say that anyone who believes communism is a perfect society is doing so in spite of all of the evidence.

danoff, my friend....Russia didnt perfect the communism ideal...dont use it as a model...

i dont give a **** about this issue...coz i dont belive in it...

Sage when he heard of communism, his first thought was of his own wealth...personal pure and simple....no thought for the nation, for society and the people whom communism is supposed to help...it was a case of who is gonna steal MY MONEY....

i dont mean to dis a SM...i dont want banned...it just a view...correct me if i was wrong....but its true that your society is based on materialism....
 
Originally posted by TurboSmoke
Sage when he heard of communism, his first thought was of his own wealth...personal pure and simple....no thought for the nation, for society and the people whom communism is supposed to help...it was a case of who is gonna steal MY MONEY....

i dont mean to dis a SM...i dont want banned...it just a view...correct me if i was wrong....but its true that your society is based on materialism....
Why are you afraid of getting banned? It's almost a compliment to me - Of course I thought of my own material/wealth! The things you said after that (society, nation, people) are all helped by the capitalist system and the fact that humans are, by nature, selfish. I'm selfish. You're selfish. Duke's selfish, milefile's selfish, danoff's selfish - We all look after our own welfare, because we all value our own lives and accomplishments.

What I said probably makes no sense to you, but I super-highly-recommend that you read Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. Even if you end up disagreeing with the stated values in the book, you'll at least know where danoff, Duke, and I are coming from (all three of us have read it).
 
Originally posted by Sage
Why are you afraid of getting banned? It's almost a compliment to me - Of course I thought of my own material/wealth! The things you said after that (society, nation, people) are all helped by the capitalist system and the fact that humans are, by nature, selfish. I'm selfish. You're selfish. Duke's selfish, milefile's selfish, danoff's selfish - We all look after our own welfare, because we all value our own lives and accomplishments.

What I said probably makes no sense to you, but I super-highly-recommend that you read Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. Even if you end up disagreeing with the stated values in the book, you'll at least know where danoff, Duke, and I are coming from (all three of us have read it).

i'll give anything a shot.....where can i buy it?:)
 
Originally posted by Sage
:)👍


Just about any bookstore - it's a very high-profile novel, and you should have no trouble finding it.

okay...i checked out Amazon and this is what a reviewer said...

Ayn Rand's unique philosophy,"Objectivism" detailed within this novel, provides excellent ammunition against contemporary intellectual "mystics" who preach that an individual's life, work,and identity are the property of the "group",( whether a "race", "class", "state" or "gods" etc.) and that self sacrifice,(the surrender of that which one values in favour of that which one does not value), should be upheld as the moral "ideal".

GROUP sounds a bit like communism to me...with a touch of socialism thrown in for good measure, SELF SACRAFICE....everything youre against???
 
excellent ammunition against ... "mystics" who preach that an individual's life... [is] the property of the "group".

and

excellent ammunition against ... "mystics" who preach that self sacrifice... should be upheld as the moral "ideal"
 
Originally posted by danoff
excellent ammunition against ... "mystics" who preach that an individual's life... [is] the property of the "group".

and

excellent ammunition against ... "mystics" who preach that self sacrifice... should be upheld as the moral "ideal"

thank you danoff...at least we agree on something :)
 

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