Democracy
- Thread starter Danoff
- 60 comments
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- 732
in a perfect society, you would not care, because you would be helping others. your answer is the most commonly snapped back comment.
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- GTP_Duke
Actually, your answer is the most commonly snapped-back comment.
Why is this a completely unthinking, knee-jerk reaction for so much of society? Why is anything OK if it is helping others, but helping youself is instantly viewed with suspicion, even if you do it the most ethical way possible?
- 935
Right. So, the basic problem is, milefile, danoff, neon_duke, Sage, and I cannot exist this so called perfect society. That is why Communism won't work, because there will always be someone out there who desires to manipulate the system to an astonishing degree, such as myself. In effect I am the reason Communism won't work.
- 935
No more typo. Thank you.
- 2,281
the Perfect Society...
its an idology, it doesnt exist...i never mentioned it beacuse i thought it was possible....its not..
its like a perfect model in mathematics, its a theroretical analogy that we use to measure the imperfections of the real world...
dont debate it...its 'ideal' by its very nature, it cannot exist except in the minds of humans....
a perfect society, for arguments sake, would be one where money is not an issue, the community is worshipped above all else and there is no crime...
no one asks...who is stealing my hard earned taxes....you've missed the poit completely...
anyway danoff...i didnt understand the point you made in your post, that why i had to agree....i cant argue something i dont understand...but your right, its cool that we agree on something...
its an idology, it doesnt exist...i never mentioned it beacuse i thought it was possible....its not..
its like a perfect model in mathematics, its a theroretical analogy that we use to measure the imperfections of the real world...
dont debate it...its 'ideal' by its very nature, it cannot exist except in the minds of humans....
a perfect society, for arguments sake, would be one where money is not an issue, the community is worshipped above all else and there is no crime...
no one asks...who is stealing my hard earned taxes....you've missed the poit completely...
anyway danoff...i didnt understand the point you made in your post, that why i had to agree....i cant argue something i dont understand...but your right, its cool that we agree on something...
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- GTP_Duke
A society where the community is worshipped above all else is my idea of hell and damnation for mankind.
When the community is primary over the individual, the individual becomes nothing. The individual is only fodder for the community to use up and dispose of at whim. There is no freedom because all must serve the masses. There is no room for individual creation, joy, satisfaction, triumph, or pride. All are reduced to a formless, shapeless, colorless mass of mediocrity, each enslaved to all the others and assigned a hopeless task they cannot possibly fulfill.
I'd rather kill myself, and assert ownership over my own life in the only way possible, than exist like that. I can't possibly call it living.
There is evil loose in the world, and it's got nothing to do with Satan.
- 2,281
i know....it makes you think of some weird Sci-Fi alternative future things...a cross between stepford wives and a halloween special of the Simpsons...scary......
i knew what i meant in my mind...it just got a bit mistranslated through the computer keyboard....
Danoff
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- Mile High City
I'm with Duke Turbo. Commune-ism is the worst thing anyone has ever thought up. It suppresses all that is good about our genetic design in an attempt to reduce people to their prescribed robot-like roles. It is a terrible idea and in theory is still the worst one out there.
A perfect society (which is definitely the point of this thread) is one in which capitalism reigns. Income is not taxed (only purchases) and democracy rules the government (in a constitutionally constrained sort of way).
Turbo, you should totally check out Atlas Shrugged. If you can stomach it (which will be hard because of your politics) you'll understand much better where your enemy is coming from.
A perfect society (which is definitely the point of this thread) is one in which capitalism reigns. Income is not taxed (only purchases) and democracy rules the government (in a constitutionally constrained sort of way).
Turbo, you should totally check out Atlas Shrugged. If you can stomach it (which will be hard because of your politics) you'll understand much better where your enemy is coming from.
- 732
Communism will never work, a perfect society will never exist, we all are the reason that communism wouldn't work. People want what they earn and theres nothing wrong with that. A perfect society in my eyes would be everyone minding their part in the world and not ever questioning it, like a robot. Communism is the most absurd thing ever cooked up simply to gain power and to raise a dictator. I, in no way, support communism. I am also the reason that communism would not work, welcome to the club.
- 2,281
yes, i appoligose for that last post...it didnt come out as i intended....
i dont want to argue politics with you danoff, but i have to say that i fundamentally disagree with your point of view....i dont mean to offend you, i am not saying its wrong, but we come from opposite poles of the political spectrum, and thats cool...
i believe that communisim can theoretically work (not that i am in any way a communist) if you look at eastern Europe, East Germany, Romania and Russia....all collapsed, but they were mishandled....i believe for communism to work, the entire population must be commited, a fair 'government' must be installed to make sure it worked and dictators like Ceausescu must never be able to be part of the system....and importantly, it can only work in a small well connected community....Russia and Romania are huge countries....and that showed in the final results...
i dont want to talk about N. Korea or China...China maybe the only one that works and its another huge country...but what do we REALLY know about China...who can comment?
i will try and get a copy of Atlas Shrugged, i am not afraid to have my mind changed because i will always stick to what i believe is right and the best for everyone not the best for one nation...
Danoff
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- Mile High City
I picked up my wifes copy of Anthem last night and read it cover to cover (it isnt very long). Its quite good - similar to Atlas Shrugged but much less thorough. It got me thinking about this thread again.
I think Ive managed to restore my faith in Democracy as a system but not the American version. Like I said before we need a constitutional amendment regarding income taxes.
In a democracy the will of the majority is paramount right? But not when it comes to personal rights. Youre not supposed to vote away someones life or someones rights. Thats why slavery was abolished. Either people have rights or they do not, the majority cannot vote on them.
Doesnt it follow then that the majority should not be able to vote to take away the minoritys money? Shouldnt it be the case then that income should not be taxed, or at the very least taxed at the same percentage across all citizens? If our elected officials cant force someone to work a particular job, and cant force a law abiding citizen to give up their life. Why can our elected officials force someone to give up their money?
It still makes sense to me that because of the (military and police) services that we get from the state that they should be able to levy a consumption based tax. A sales tax. That way the quantity paid to the state is voluntary by each citizen. The amount that that person consumes dictates their contribution to the funding that keeps them safe and their contracts enforced. Rich people will still consume more and contribute the most taxes.
So what does everyone think? Why should Americans be able to vote away other Americans money? Does income tax make sense and wouldnt it make more sense if it were applied evenly across all citizens (Ill leave the word evenly up for interpretation)?
I think Ive managed to restore my faith in Democracy as a system but not the American version. Like I said before we need a constitutional amendment regarding income taxes.
In a democracy the will of the majority is paramount right? But not when it comes to personal rights. Youre not supposed to vote away someones life or someones rights. Thats why slavery was abolished. Either people have rights or they do not, the majority cannot vote on them.
Doesnt it follow then that the majority should not be able to vote to take away the minoritys money? Shouldnt it be the case then that income should not be taxed, or at the very least taxed at the same percentage across all citizens? If our elected officials cant force someone to work a particular job, and cant force a law abiding citizen to give up their life. Why can our elected officials force someone to give up their money?
It still makes sense to me that because of the (military and police) services that we get from the state that they should be able to levy a consumption based tax. A sales tax. That way the quantity paid to the state is voluntary by each citizen. The amount that that person consumes dictates their contribution to the funding that keeps them safe and their contracts enforced. Rich people will still consume more and contribute the most taxes.
So what does everyone think? Why should Americans be able to vote away other Americans money? Does income tax make sense and wouldnt it make more sense if it were applied evenly across all citizens (Ill leave the word evenly up for interpretation)?
Danoff
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- Mile High City
I did some checking on constitutional provisions for income tax and found out that there is some questions as to whether amendment XVI which allows congress to levy income tax was ever fully ratified. Meaning there is some legal questions as to whether or not you can constitutionally be taxed on your income. Check out:
http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com
This sucks even more, because not only is this amendment one of the worst things that has happened to America, it wasn't even necessarily voted on.
http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com
This sucks even more, because not only is this amendment one of the worst things that has happened to America, it wasn't even necessarily voted on.
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
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I'm really surprised, but pleased to find Rand fans tucked away in this corner of this site. Didn't expect this at a car site. I read The Fountainhead in college and it made a bigger difference in my critical thinking than all my philosophy and humanities classes combined. 👍
"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender. We will add your biological and technological distinciveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
What philosophies do you think these classic Star Trek enemies are based on?
Turbo, I think most of us in this thread will tell you that communism fails not because history is full of bad implementations, but because the trait required for it to succeed is against the very nature of man. Its not a bad idea because people can't make it work right. Its a bad idea because it makes people not work right, period.
You should consider The Fountainhead before you read Atlas. The second book really builds on the principles of the first, and is a sequel in many ways.
///M-Spec
"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender. We will add your biological and technological distinciveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
What philosophies do you think these classic Star Trek enemies are based on?
Turbo, I think most of us in this thread will tell you that communism fails not because history is full of bad implementations, but because the trait required for it to succeed is against the very nature of man. Its not a bad idea because people can't make it work right. Its a bad idea because it makes people not work right, period.
You should consider The Fountainhead before you read Atlas. The second book really builds on the principles of the first, and is a sequel in many ways.
///M-Spec
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- GTP_Duke
Heh, there is a bunch of us here... and more coming on from time to time.
I usually recommend that people read Atlas Shrugged first, ///M. While I agree with you about it building on the The Fountainhead (which, in fact, I read first), I find that people have a harder time relating to Roark as a hero, and a harder time grasping the individual as an ideal when it is more abstracted in The Fountainhead. Atlas, on the other hand, makes the contrast between individual and collective much simpler and more direct.
Glad to know you're a Randite. Ever read any Heinlein?
- 244
I dont mean to be a smart ass but technically the US is not a democracy. Its a republic. In a democracy everyone votes on all issues and in a republic the citizens elect representatives to representive the views of the public. Many may not even realize it says such in the Plege of Allegience: "To the REPUBLIC for which is stands..." I again I dont mean to be a smart ass Im just putting in my 2¢.
- 935
It's a democratic republic. It combines the two systems. Do you know anything?
- 935
It is equally a republic and a democracy. So - Be that as it may, it's a democracy nontheless. Your fact sucks. Recant.
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- GTP_Duke
We do have control of the government - majority control. The problem is that the majority will unfailingly vote themselves "bread and circuses" every time. That means people like you and I, who would prefer minimal government, are left stuck with what the majority wants, which is cradle-to-grave protection from everything.
- 3,052
Tyranny of the majority is not always the right way to do things -- however, that is how society is. I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm saying:
That is just the way things are.
That is just the way things are.
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