Democrats' Health Care bill has been passed - SCOTUS ruling update

The Health Care bill.


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It must be admitted that we libertarians make easy targets. This is because we generally espouse old-fashioned ideas and principles such as "the ends do not justify the means", pay off (or do not get into) debt, and most controversially, notions of personal responsibility. And we have a visceral aversion of authority. Usually, we are able to indulge in the world of principles and ideas because we have successfully provided for the basics. Suffering a certain amount of attack and criticism must be accepted as the price of our material success and philosophical dabbling.


Respectfully,
Dotini
 
Oh, I see now. You once again have misconstrued (I could almost argue purposely) the point to be what you want to argue against, rather than what it really is. No one here has said that someone should be able to practice medicine without being a trained doctor. If you want to make that accusation then I challenge you to back it up.

But of course, even in today's system, anyone can offer medical advice, doctor or not.

And in fact "alternative medicine practitioners" don't need any qualifications at all before setting up surgeries.
 
Once again you offer a completely unrealistic, reductionist analogy.

And once again you go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with my point and is yet another opportunity for you to repeat your la-la-land set piece.
 
And yet essentials they are. Few people will die by this time tomorrow without "free" healthcare. You wouldn't even make this time tomorrow if not in a human-temperature-acceptable environment.

Actually, for about ~320 days out of the year I could live outside with the rest of the homeless in Kentucky. But if by human-temperature-acceptable environment, you mean the Earth itself, then I have no argument there. If there is a sudden, unexpected change in the Earth's climate within the next 24 hours, then I'm screwed.

So why is healthcare - which is less essential than food/water/shelter - not allowed to be subject to the same competitive market mechanisms?

Well, in a way healthcare in the U.S. is already subject to market mechanisms--they just happen to be very unique.

Healthcare is a service with high consumer demand. However, it is a very unique service--one in which many "essential" products cost so much, they lead to bankruptcy. A week long hospital stay in an Intensive Care Unit in the U.S. can be roughly equivalent to the cost of the average starter home here in my home town in some cases. So in effect, the cost of the healthcare "product" varies dramatically--from a $60 office visit, all the way up to an $80,000 week long stay in ICU.

Without government and private insurance, many people would have to go deeply into debt to remain alive. Most people I know don't have $80,000 laying around to pay for a week long hospital stay. What are they going to do if they don't have the money or insurance to pay for it? Well, I guess they'll do what they are doing now--choosing to live, and also having to go into bankruptcy as a result of their medical bills.

Define "essential". In medical terms, anything anyone needs to prevent their death is essential - and some would argue that they absolutely need a breast augmentation to boost their self-esteem, otherwise they'd be depressed and suicidal (yes, breast augmentations are offered on the NHS).

I'm not going to paint myself into a corner by offering up a definition of "essential" as it relates to healthcare. My definition of the term is insignificant because I'm not in control of an insurance company, making life or death decisions regarding who does, and does not get healthcare that will keep them alive. I think you provided a good definition of essential in your quote--before you proceeded to add the bit about the breast augmentation.

"affordable and accessible for anyone". In financial terms, that's free...

So if someone doesn't have insurance, or a job, or somehow have the means to pay for their quadruple bypass surgery, then they should die? Even if they live two blocks away from a hospital? Yeah, I guess I think it should be free then. I'd rather see a very small percentage of cases where doctors/hospitals take a loss, than someone having to go bankrupt in order to live.

This cannot happen in a monopolistic, governmentally-controlled system. There is no competition - competition drives prices down and quality of service up.

No government control = prices down/service up

If this is the case, then why are so many doctors opposed to a system in which they ostensibly are making more money than they would in a system with less government control? Are they really that altruistic? I doubt it.

What if you did mind paying for it out of your taxes? What choice would you have? How about not making that decision for everyone and, if you don't mind contributing to others, do so in a charitable fashion?

You mean donate to charities? I'd rather donate it directly to the government. The government wastes money more effectively than charities.

The majority of charities are either a) corrupt shams, b) affiliated with organized religion, or c) well-meaning but ineptly and wastefully managed. Call me crazy, but I have more trust in the government to use funds more properly than charities.

Maybe I missed something in History 101, but when exactly was there a time when charities were able to effectively address the scope of human needs for adequate healthcare, housing, food, etc.? The charity solution is a common argument from Libertarians. Charities--mainly religious ones--have been around for centuries, yet there is no evidence that they have ever been as effective as governments at addressing human needs. And they never will be.

By all means, if you can find a reputable charity out there, give to your heart's content. But don't expect rational people to think that charities are going to provide a solution for healthcare problems, or anything else for that matter. They are--at best--a band aid for a bullet hole.
 
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Maybe I missed something in History 101, but when exactly was there a time when charities were able to effectively address the scope of human needs for adequate healthcare, housing, food, etc.? The charity solution is a common argument from Libertarians. Charities--mainly religious ones--have been around for centuries, yet there is no evidence that they have ever been as effective as governments at addressing human needs. And they never will be.

An interesting and important observation. For millennia the main mechanism for reliably addressing human needs was the family, extended family, and tribal system that was the dominant paradigm from ~2 million years ago to about 8000 years ago. That no institution, whether government, private industry or charity has been as reliable as the former system is as much a reflection on the state of the modern family and its relationship to the nation/state economic system as it is to any preferences among libertarians or progressives.

My opinion only,
Dotini
 
Actually, for about 330+ days out of the year I could live outside with the rest of the homeless in Kentucky. But if by human-temperature-acceptable environment, you mean the Earth itself, then I have no argument there. If there is a sudden, unexpected change in the Earth's climate within the next 24 hours, then I'm screwed.

It's actually remarkable how little of the Earth is suitable for exposed human habitation. Which is probably why so many homeless people, even in cities, die every night.

Well, in a way healthcare in the U.S. is already subject to market mechanisms--they just happen to be very unique.

Indeed it is. But the new plan will tear that all away. In a fully socialist system - like we have in the UK - there are no market mechanisms at all.

So the question remains - what about healthcare means that it is not acceptable for it to be governed by the same market forces as less essential and more essential services and products?


I'm not going to paint myself into a corner by offering up a definition of "essential" as it relates to healthcare. My definition of the term is insignificant because I'm not in control of an insurance company, making life or death decisions regarding who does, and does not get healthcare that will keep them alive. I think you provided a good definition of essential in your quote--before you proceeded to add the bit about the breast augmentation.

But you see, this is the problem. Someone has to define "essential". Foolkiller's pacemaker is essential to him, but it's not to me. A titlift is essential to someone (and, seriously, you might think it's silly but they are offered on the NHS. Free at point of use!), but I don't think either of us would attempt to claim it's actually essential.

What is being sought is a single authority on what "essential" is - with no regard to individual needs.


So if someone doesn't have insurance, or a job, or somehow have the means to pay for their quadruple bypass surgery, then they should die?

Who said that then? Who, in this thread, is proposing that people who can't pay should just die?

Yeah, I guess I think it should be free then.

The bypass should be free if you can't afford to pay for it, but not if you can? Healthcare is something to be means-tested now, rather than need-specific? Or should it just be free across the board?

Of course, then we fall foul of what's "essential" again. No bypass will usually quickly lead to death - so it's "essential" for the individual to continue living. However, coronary bypass surgery is, generally, a culpable injury. Keep up the saturated fats or the smoking and you're going to need one sooner or later. Is it "essential" that we treat those who refuse to live a healthy lifestyle, paid for (in part) by those who do? What about other culpable injuries - like sports injuries or sexually transmitted disease?


No government control = prices down/service up

If this is the case, then why are so many doctors opposed to a system in which they ostensibly are making more money than they would in a system with less government control? Are they really that altruistic? I doubt it.

Why would doctors make more money in a system where what they can earn is strictly regulated by government controls on how much they can charge.

You mean donate to charities? I'd rather donate it directly to the government. The government wastes money more effectively than charities.

If you'd rather do that, you do that. Why are you happy making the same choice for everyone without even asking them?

The majority of charities are either a) corrupt shams, b) affiliated with organized religion, or c) well-meaning but ineptly and wastefully managed. Call me crazy, but I have more trust in the government to use funds more properly than charities.

Maybe I missed something in History 101, but when exactly was there a time when charities were able to effectively address the scope of human needs for adequate healthcare, housing, food, etc.? The charity solution is a common argument from Libertarians. Charities--mainly religious ones--have been around for centuries, yet there is no evidence that they have ever been as effective as governments at addressing human needs. And they never will be.

Is there any evidence that they are less effective than governments at addressing human needs?

Citing no evidence seems... unusual.


By all means, if you can find a reputable charity out there, give to your heart's content. But don't expect rational people to think that charities are going to provide a solution for healthcare problems, or anything else for that matter. They are--at best--a band aid for a bullet hole.

I'd love to but the tax the average British earner pays to keep our health service running (which is about three times the price it'd cost for them to get the same cover on private healthcare) means I have no money to spare. Bummer, eh?
 
How does medicine practiced by a trained professional differ from any other job practiced by a trained professional?

The comparison Duke made was with buying or selling a car or house.

Elective, cosmetic braces were not covered under our insurance, nor should they have been. We negotiated a favorable price and payment plan.

Fair enough. That would be the same in Canada.

Oh, I see now. You once again have misconstrued (I could almost argue purposely) the point to be what you want to argue against, rather than what it really is. No one here has said that someone should be able to practice medicine without being a trained doctor. If you want to make that accusation then I challenge you to back it up.

I haven't misconstrued anything. It was Duke who made the analogy to buying or selling a house. I am saying I don't believe the relationship between a doctor & patient is the same as the relationship between the buyer & seller of a house, & I don't think it should be. It is the libertarians here, who constantly bring up extreme, inappropriate analogies to make a point - in this case that selling medical services shouldn't be in any way different from selling a car. Libertarians (or some extreme libertarians) believe that ALL human interaction can be carried out on a "contractual" basis. I don't believe that is practical or desirable.

In the case of the medical profession in Canada, young people can make a free choice as to whether they wish to train for the profession or not, based on a knowledge of what their likely earnings will be in their chosen field. If that field of employment becomes unattractive, the monetary incentives will eventually increase to balance the supply with the demand. That is the free market at work, within the limitations of a single-payer health-care system. It's not "pure capitalism" & it's not "pure socialism", it's a practical solution that every Western country other than the U.S. has adopted. It's definitely not perfect & it's not ideologically "pure", but it works reasonably well, & from what I have seen, in my years of living in the the UK, US & Canada, overall, it is a more efficient, effective solution than what has evolved in the U.S. However, I wouldn't question that is is quite likely that the wealthiest sector of the population would receive superior health care under the U.S. system.

Generally speaking, libertarian ideas are an important element in the way Western society is organised currently, but I don't see any evidence that a pure libertarian approach would be more successful in practice than what exists now, but either way, it's not provable by logic!
 
The comparison Duke made was with buying or selling a car or house.
In retort to a claim that a doctor shouldn't be able to determine their own asking price for performing their profession. How is it different? Why should one job not be allowed to determine an asking price and another should? Keep in mind asking prices are not set in stone.

Fair enough. That would be the same in Canada.
So, in this instance in Canada you can go into a doctor's office and negotiate a price and payment option? Or is it just that Canadian health care doesn't cover elective, cosmetic braces?

I ask because:
I am saying I don't believe the relationship between a doctor & patient is the same as the relationship between the buyer & seller of a house, & I don't think it should be.
So, what should people do wishing to receive medical care outside of what is covered then? Pay whatever the government, or plan, has determined is the going rate?

It is the libertarians here, who constantly bring up extreme, inappropriate analogies to make a point - in this case that selling medical services shouldn't be in any way different from selling a car. Libertarians (or some extreme libertarians) believe that ALL human interaction can be carried out on a "contractual" basis. I don't believe that is practical or desirable.
Assuming that we believe all human interaction should be carried out on a contractual basis (which you know is false - who is making extreme claims now?) why can't health care? Why can't I call my doctors all over town, or the country even, and ask for the best price? Why can't I haggle the cost of my health care? Why should I be forced into a system where I pay what I am told to pay and then the doctor gets paid what he is told he will be paid or he quits being a doctor? What is so bad about me wanting to find a doctor of acceptable service quality at a price I am willing to pay?

In the case of the medical profession in Canada, young people can make a free choice as to whether they wish to train for the profession or not, based on a knowledge of what their likely earnings will be in their chosen field. If that field of employment becomes unattractive, the monetary incentives will eventually increase to balance the supply with the demand.
So if the greatest doctor ever entered this system can he get paid more than other doctors in his field? Can he request a raise and be taken seriously? Or can a patient request to pay less because they feel their doctor's skills are sub-par?

That is the free market at work, within the limitations of a single-payer health-care system.
By strict definition, that is not free market so long as there is any government control. Not an extreme ideology, just an honest definition.

But then you know that:
It's definitely not perfect & it's not ideologically "pure"

However, I wouldn't question that is is quite likely that the wealthiest sector of the population would receive superior health care under the U.S. system.
Well, you know the government has severely screwed up our system to make it expensive to get into without an employer-created opening. But you understand the fact that we disagree n how that system should be fixed and no one is arguing in favor of this current US system. Although, oddly enough I am not considered part of the wealthiest sector of the US population and I do receive great health care. I don't know if it is superior to Canadian health care, but I have made it nearly 31 years without losing much quality of life.

I am curious though, how do second opinions work? At one point we decided to get a second opinion from my first surgeon after my second surgeon was suggesting a third surgery. We opted to trust the doctor that innovated some new surgical techniques over the local doctor that had a poor bedside manner. I have been using the same drug cocktail that was suggested then for almost 17 years now to avoid further surgery.
 
In retort to a claim that a doctor shouldn't be able to determine their own asking price for performing their profession. How is it different? Why should one job not be allowed to determine an asking price and another should? Keep in mind asking prices are not set in stone.

Under a universal health-care system doctors do still have the ability, collectively, to influence the asking price - the medical profession has a very powerful lobby. It does limit the individual doctors ability to negotiate his own price, however. In return, the doctor does not have the expense, uncertainty & hassle of dealing with numerous insurance companies. Definitely, as with everything, there are pluses & minuses.

By strict definition, that is not free market so long as there is any government control.

That is true, but I don't have any problem with that - that is where I differ with you.

Assuming that we believe all human interaction should be carried out on a contractual basis (which you know is false - who is making extreme claims now?)

That is my understanding of the libertarian position (at least other than purely on "personal" matters) - perhaps you could correct me?

Why can't I call my doctors all over town, or the country even, and ask for the best price? Why can't I haggle the cost of my health care?

If you become chronically sick, or are in an emergency situation, practically speaking, you are not in a position to do this.

So if the greatest doctor ever entered this system can he get paid more than other doctors in his field?

I'm not sure exactly how this works in practice. My father-in-law was one of the leading cardiac radiologists of his generation in North America. Due to his experience, skill & seniority he was very well-paid in Canada. He turned down repeated offers to work in the U.S., although he would have been paid more there, because his work, his colleagues, his patients, meant more to him than just money. I think you will find that the best people in the medical field, as well as most other fields are motivated by things other than making money. Profit is not the only factor governing human relations, & earning potential isn't the only, or even the most important factor governing the skill & dedication of the medical profession.

Or can a patient request to pay less because they feel their doctor's skills are sub-par?

Have you actually tried this Foolkiller? :bowdown:




And once again you go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with my point and is yet another opportunity for you to repeat your la-la-land set piece.

I will say that, unlike you, at least Foolkiller always makes an honest attempt to address the questions. The la-la-land is entirely of your making: throw out an extreme, hyperbolic analogy & then don't even attempt to defend it. I, of course, understand that selling a car & selling your medical services have something in common. But there is also much that is different, so making a blank statement attacking cpp214 is not helpful to the discussion - it is, as usual, blankly reductionist.

An interesting and important observation. For millennia the main mechanism for reliably addressing human needs was the family, extended family, and tribal system that was the dominant paradigm from ~2 million years ago to about 8000 years ago.

Really Dotini? :boggled: Again, there is some weird, fantasy past being projected where everything was ideal & family or tribe took care of all problems. This would be kind of like the good old days, mentioned in previous posts, when the US was so much more respectful of personal liberty - that is, apart from slavery.

You want a contemporary society based on "extended family" & a "tribal system"? Try Afganistan.

There is a la-la-land here all right. It's the la-la-land of libertarian utopia.
 
If you become chronically sick, or are in an emergency situation, practically speaking, you are not in a position to do this.

That's what insurance is for. Insurance is not a bad thing, but it is being misused today.

This would be kind of like the good old days, mentioned in previous posts, when the US was so much more respectful of personal liberty - that is, apart from slavery.

You want a contemporary society based on "extended family" & a "tribal system"? Try Afganistan.

There is a la-la-land here all right. It's the la-la-land of libertarian utopia.

Again and again you try to tie libertarians to slavery. You seriously need to stop. It's getting tiresome and it makes you look like you're desperately grasping at straws. You have admitted that libertarian not only does not rely on slavery, but actually prescribes that slavery should not exist and is not right. Yet over and over you bring up slavery in an attempt to defeat libertarian ideals.

I'm asking you once again, to relive me of irritation and to protect your own reputation, to stop attempting to use slavery as an argument against freedom.
 
That's what insurance is for.

That's also what universal health-care insurance is for.

Perhaps you can't follow the argument Danoff, but I've never "tied libertarians to slavery". It was libertarians on this forum who offered the opinion that U.S. citizens enjoyed more personal "liberty" in the past than they do now. I just showed that this is a highly selective & inaccurate reading of history, much like Dotini's suggestion that in an extended family or tribal past, people received better care.

It's fascinating to me that libertarians, who totally dominate the Current Events forums on GTPlanet, continually plug away at the same old, tired reductionist cliches - really, we've heard the "gun-to-the-head", "robbing-Peter-to-pay-Paul" argument a thousand times - & then try & silence anyone who posts comments that don't agree with them.
 
It's the difference between relevant and related, and irrelevant and unrelated.

There WAS a time when many people in the US enjoyed more personal freedoms. That slavery existed at this time is IRRELEVANT and UNRELATED.
 
Under a universal health-care system doctors do still have the ability, collectively, to influence the asking price - the medical profession has a very powerful lobby. It does limit the individual doctors ability to negotiate his own price, however.
So, it is kind of like a labor union? That actually scares me.

In return, the doctor does not have the expense, uncertainty & hassle of dealing with numerous insurance companies. Definitely, as with everything, there are pluses & minuses.
But see, I am proposing a system where the insurance companies are not the primary payer.

That is true, but I don't have any problem with that - that is where I differ with you.
But then it is not a free market at work. That was my point. You were attempting to sugar-coat the system as something it isn't.

That is my understanding of the libertarian position (at least other than purely on "personal" matters) - perhaps you could correct me?
Well, personal relationships and whatnot are not contractual, but you were the one that emphasized ALL. The closest thing to a contract I signed when I got married was the certificate the government forces me to fill out if I want to merge financial status with my wife.

And then how tightly are you defining contractual? Voluntary transactions are not all contractually based. There is no contract at a farmer's market, where I can haggle with different providers of essential life-sustaining products in one place at one time to see who will give me the best deal on corn. Once I find the best offer I hand him/her my cash, he hands me my corn and there isn't so much as handshake.

If you become chronically sick, or are in an emergency situation, practically speaking, you are not in a position to do this.
Ah back to the emergency situation again, which no one has claimed we would want turned away due to ability to pay. As for chronically sick: Why can't someone who is chronically ill negotiate and shop around? Heck, many times people with chronic pain use alternative treatments, like acupuncture, which aren't covered by insurance, so they are actually very likely to shop around.

By the way, I have three conditions that would be considered chronic by definition, and only one of those is congenital.

Perhaps you meant terminal? But then, even a terminal illness doesn't necessarily make you unable to use a phone.

I'm not sure exactly how this works in practice. My father-in-law was one of the leading cardiac radiologists of his generation in North America. Due to his experience, skill & seniority he was very well-paid in Canada. He turned down repeated offers to work in the U.S., although he would have been paid more there, because his work, his colleagues, his patients, meant more to him than just money. I think you will find that the best people in the medical field, as well as most other fields are motivated by things other than making money. Profit is not the only factor governing human relations, & earning potential isn't the only, or even the most important factor governing the skill & dedication of the medical profession.
I guess the follow up to my question should be: If he doesn't make a ton of money are any patients that want to allowed to use his practice? If so, what, if not supply and demand pricing, prevents him from having a waiting list so long that his patients die before he can even see them?

I know that if for the same price I can go to Dr Stupid or Dr. Awesome, I am going to Dr. Awesome.

Have you actually tried this Foolkiller? :bowdown:
No, because I check doctor ratings before I go, and switch whenever I feel necessary. The previously mentioned surgeon situation is the only time I was unhappy with my current doctor, but I was also 14. I do know that whenever I go in I sign the payment forms that clearly state that if I have trouble paying any cost that I can call the number listed to discuss what I can pay and what plans I can pay on.

Although, if you listen to Dave Ramsey (And I have his book and have taken his course) all expenses are negotiable.
 
My first question Foolkiller is: how the hell do you have the time to make all these posts? :boggled:

So, it is kind of like a labor union? That actually scares me.

I don't have the time to find out exactly how it works. You could take a look at this schedule of fees.

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/ohip/sob/physserv/a_consul.pdf

But then it is not a free market at work. That was my point. You were attempting to sugar-coat the system as something it isn't.

There are a lot of things that might be short of "free-market" but are "free-markety". I'm not "sugar-coating" (that would be unhealthy) - I don't have to as I don't have an ideological problem with the system being less than a "perfect" free-market.

Well, personal relationships and whatnot are not contractual, but you were the one that emphasized ALL. The closest thing to a contract I signed when I got married was the certificate the government forces me to fill out if I want to merge financial status with my wife.

And then how tightly are you defining contractual? Voluntary transactions are not all contractually based. There is no contract at a farmer's market, where I can haggle with different providers of essential life-sustaining products in one place at one time to see who will give me the best deal on corn. Once I find the best offer I hand him/her my cash, he hands me my corn and there isn't so much as handshake.

Well, yes, that is what I imagine your position to be. I still see the libertarian position as putting the emphasis on "contracts" - written or intended in any kind of exchange of goods & services.

Ah back to the emergency situation again, which no one has claimed we would want turned away due to ability to pay. As for chronically sick: Why can't someone who is chronically ill negotiate and shop around?

I can see from my own experience with a very sick close relative, that it would often be completely impractical, & emotionally devastating for a seriously sick person to try to "shop around".

I guess the follow up to my question should be: If he doesn't make a ton of money are any patients that want to allowed to use his practice? If so, what, if not supply and demand pricing, prevents him from having a waiting list so long that his patients die before he can even see them?

In Canada, it would presumably be done on a "need" basis. Supply would depend on the availability of qualified specialists. There are certainly issues with availability of some medical services in Canada. Ultimately, over time public pressure (demand) would dictate just how many qualified specialists would be available - not a perfectly flexible scenario, but not that dissimilar to what would happen in the US.

I guess the other side of the question would be this: if you were waiting for urgent treatment in the US (or anywhere else for that matter), but someone came along who was able to pay much more money (perhaps with less urgent need) to receive the treatment before you, would you consider it acceptable for the doctor to treat the patient who would make him a bigger profit? That would be the ultimate action of a "free-market", more akin to the buying & selling of a car. In Canada, at least in theory, this could not happen.

On a practical level, my father-in-law made a very good salary & was not really concerned about maximizing his potential income - he was more concerned with being a good physician. I would suggest that that is the primary motivation for most good physicians (the A-hole urologist - hmm... that's an odd phrase - not withstanding).

No, because I check doctor ratings before I go, and switch whenever I feel necessary

I'm impressed with your research ability. I would think in most cases, people would find it difficult to come to clearly understood distinctions between the ability of different physicians - I find it hard enough to choose between competing models of toaster ovens. :confused:
 
I can see from my own experience with a very sick close relative, that it would often be completely impractical, & emotionally devastating for a seriously sick person to try to "shop around".

Again, this is the point of insurance.
 
There WAS a time when many people in the US enjoyed more personal freedoms. That slavery existed at this time is IRRELEVANT and UNRELATED.

Do I really have to respond to this? :rolleyes:

Foolkiller makes the point (a standard libertarian argument) that a "free-market" system that is not completely free is not a free market system. Fair enough.

Danoff, you wish to make the point that there was a time when "'many' people in the US enjoyed more personal freedoms" , & then you go on to add "That slavery existed at this time is IRRELEVANT and UNRELATED".

Do I really have to point out how completely intellectually & morally bankrupt your argument is? If you live in a society where 70% of the people enjoy "more personal freedoms", but 30% are enslaved, or second-class citizens deprived of basic rights, is that a society in which people really enjoy "more personal freedoms?"

Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand today, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of their captivity.

But one hundred years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languished in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. And so we've come here today to dramatize a shameful condition.

In a sense we've come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the "unalienable Rights" of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note, insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked "insufficient funds." Martin Luther King Jr.

Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual). - Ayn Rand

If the intellectual & moral argument escapes you, may I add the further practical point that the prosperity of many of the citizens of the newly "liberated" colonies & their resulting ability to pursue "personal freedoms", was a consequence of economic activity dependent on slavery for its success. Does the relationship & relevance of slavery start to become clear to you?

As for the relevance of all this to libertarian thinking, let me connect the dots for you:

Throughout human history the rich & powerful have always preyed on the poor & weak. The rich & powerful often enjoyed tremendous "individual freedoms" - in point of fact, the richest & most powerful could do pretty much whatever they liked, unencumbered by an equal & fair justice system. This is like half of the libertarian ideal, but without having to worry about the bit concerning "impeding the rights of others" - sort of like the liberties enjoyed by slave owners in the U.S.

Along comes the "Age of Reason". For the first time, there is a systematic attempt to provide a constitution protecting human rights & individual liberty within a rational, republican, framework of law. A constitution based on libertarian principles. However, notwithstanding these principles, slavery continues to exist & even after the belated abolition of slavery, gross violations of human rights continue unabated. In fact, these gross violations of human rights continue into my own lifetime. Only the determined, courageous, collective action of the Civil Rights era, by the descendants of slaves & their white supporters, is able to overthrow the systemic abuses of individual rights endemic to the Southern states. Not co-incidentally, it takes the "coercive intervention of the (federal) State" to enforce the protection of individual rights within the Southern states.

Are libertarian ideals responsible for this sordid history of human rights abuses? Not at all. In fact, those libertarian ideals provide a framework to fight against human rights abuses, but, as the history of the U.S. shows, libertarian ideals are not enough. In practice, the rich & powerful will continue to use their wealth & power to take advantage of the poor & weak.

Over the last two hundred years there has been a gradual development of democratic principles: collective rights, social, environmental & labour legislation, & yes, an attempt to "share the wealth". I don't have a problem with this in principle, because it's clear to me that balancing the principles of individual liberty with collective welfare, has led to a period of unparalleled general prosperity, peace & well-being in the West. I simply don't believe (what "pure" libertarians believe) that, in practice, the unimpeded pursuit of individual freedom will result in a positive outcome. Certainly, however, there is room for debate about what exactly the balance between individual liberty & collective well-being should be when it comes to issues like universal health-care or progressive taxation.

I'll leave the last word to that unrelenting socialist Warren Buffet:

Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion, said: “The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.”

Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent. Mr Buffett told his audience, which included John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, and Alan Patricof, the founder of the US branch of Apax Partners, that US government policy had accentuated a disparity of wealth that hurt the economy by stifling opportunity and motivation.
 
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A socialist worth $52 billion? Holy 🤬.
 
Dotini's suggestion that in an extended family or tribal past, people received better care.

Dearest Biggles, you are a fabulous and much needed contributor to these pages. Bravo. But in order to remain both anodyne and apposite, it would be wise to most accurately reflect and appreciate your interlocutor's viewpoints. E.g., with reference to former systems of health care, the word I used was "reliable", not "better". In the tribal system, 100% of everybody (in the tribe) received the best health care available. In the current US system millions are without a shred of coverage.

The task you have taken upon yourself is bold and formidable. You will win some and lose some. But without integrity and fairness, you are roadkill waiting to happen. You do have friends here, but only if you want them.

Highest regards,
Dotini
 
Dearest Biggles, you are a fabulous and much needed contributor to these pages. Bravo. But in order to remain both anodyne and apposite, it would be wise to most accurately reflect and appreciate your interlocutor's viewpoints. E.g., with reference to former systems of health care, the word I used was "reliable", not "better". In the tribal system, 100% of everybody (in the tribe) received the best health care available. In the current US system millions are without a shred of coverage.

My Dear Dotini, I would respectfully suggest whether the word is "reliable" or "better" makes little difference. Extended family or tribe do not strike me as being reliable, equitable, or effective ways of delivering health care, or anything else, especially in a world in which there are billions of people. Extended family & tribe remain the organizing principle in much of the (Third) world today, with spectacularly unimpressive results.

In any case, I'm not comparing it to the current US system, but to the universal health care system in the rest of the developed world.
 
How does medicine practiced by a trained professional differ from any other job practiced by a trained professional?



Several ways, if I give you a bid for labor and materials and those materials do not do the job I will replace those products at my expense and labor, if the job goes long I risk being back charged, if I blow the bid I may lose money, so and so on. However if the DR. writes a prescription that does not work I still pay for the next prescription and I pay the next office visit since I’m on the pay cash as you go plan I find this frustrating. Just try asking for a price quote on a most medical procedures and see where that gets you, they can’t possibly give you an accurate quote there’s just too many variables. The truth is you cannot make a apples to apples comparison between DR. and any other trade or profession.


P.S quote taken from foolkiller.
 
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My first question Foolkiller is: how the hell do you have the time to make all these posts? :boggled:
Part of my job is a requirement to type fast and be effective at research.

I don't have the time to find out exactly how it works. You could take a look at this schedule of fees.

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/ohip/sob/physserv/a_consul.pdf
The reason why I ask, and your list doesn't explain it, is that I would have trouble working a job and knowing that if I do better I can't make more than the guy doing just enough to stay in business.

And on the other hand, if a doctor were limited in what his individual rate could be in a patient-paid system then he couldn't cut a deal to be helpful. It wouldn't be uncommon for a doctor to just charge supply costs. My sister-in-law is an optometrist and when she lived close she used to do that for us.

There are a lot of things that might be short of "free-market" but are "free-markety". I'm not "sugar-coating" (that would be unhealthy) - I don't have to as I don't have an ideological problem with the system being less than a "perfect" free-market.
It isn't an ideological problem, it is you mis-using the word outside of its definition. Free market = Free of intervention. Me being ideological is saying that the system is wrong because it isn't free market. Me pointing out that the system you described is not free market is me correcting you on using the incorrect definition.

And if trying to describe a single-payer system as free market to make it sound not so bad to us ideological libertarians isn't sugar coating, then I don't know what is.

Well, yes, that is what I imagine your position to be. I still see the libertarian position as putting the emphasis on "contracts" - written or intended in any kind of exchange of goods & services.
So, now we have whittled down "ALL" to an exchange of goods and services? In that case then technically you could likely refer to all voluntary transactions as contracts, either verbal or otherwise.

But then the question has to be: What is the problem with that? Keep in mind that no one is arguing against emergency treatment.

I can see from my own experience with a very sick close relative, that it would often be completely impractical, & emotionally devastating for a seriously sick person to try to "shop around".
Chronically ill does not mean incapacitated is my point. Considering that people with rare terminal diseases often have to research to find a doctor that might be able to help it is clearly possible. If the situation is one in which the patient is physically incapable or emotionally restricted then that is why we have medical powers of attorney. My 95-year-old grandmother has one (my uncle), my 92-year-old great uncle has one (my father), and even I have one (my wife). In fact, perfectly healthy adults should have one planned for in case they are in a situation that leaves them incapacitated. Even if you are just emotionally unable to do the research your medical power of attorney is allowed to do it for you.

Nothing prevents it from happening other than lack of preparedness.

In Canada, it would presumably be done on a "need" basis. Supply would depend on the availability of qualified specialists. There are certainly issues with availability of some medical services in Canada. Ultimately, over time public pressure (demand) would dictate just how many qualified specialists would be available - not a perfectly flexible scenario, but not that dissimilar to what would happen in the US.
When I said supply and demand I was not referring to the market as a whole. In my question I am assuming that there are hundreds of other specialists of the same type available, but none of them have the great rating of this one doctor. He is the best and everyone knows that if you want to be guaranteed to recover you only go to him. If his success doesn't come at a higher price what prevents patients from lining up?

I guess the other side of the question would be this: if you were waiting for urgent treatment in the US (or anywhere else for that matter), but someone came along who was able to pay much more money (perhaps with less urgent need) to receive the treatment before you, would you consider it acceptable for the doctor to treat the patient who would make him a bigger profit?
Define urgent treatment. As in I will die very soon? In that instance you get back to the emergency scenario which I have to keep pointing out no one is against. Most urgent first.

If it is a matter of my surgery being put off a week but I still live, then I would be upset, but I would understand. At most I might switch doctors to one that won't abandon me at the flash of a Benjamin. But then any doctor that pushes aside all other patients for one rich patient will likely find he is reliant on that one rich patient to stay in business.

That would be the ultimate action of a "free-market", more akin to the buying & selling of a car. In Canada, at least in theory, this could not happen.
The ultimate action of a free market would be that any doctor willing to do that to all other patients finds he has very little business, and is better off being a personal doctor.

On a practical level, my father-in-law made a very good salary & was not really concerned about maximizing his potential income - he was more concerned with being a good physician. I would suggest that that is the primary motivation for most good physicians.
So, by that rationale then there is no need to worry in a free market system because doctors will be willing to help before they worry about maximizing their profit. Because nothing about a free market requires someone to maximize profit beyond their ability to keep their business open and feed themselves.

I'm impressed with your research ability. I would think in most cases, people would find it difficult to come to clearly understood distinctions between the ability of different physicians - I find it hard enough to choose between competing models of toaster ovens. :confused:
There are entire Web sites devoted to it. I linked to one in a response to TM earlier in this thread.

I'll leave the last word to that unrelenting socialist liar Warren Buffet:
I thought I would update it to reflect the inaccuracies I pointed out in the tax thread. He is lying about at least two of those facts.

A socialist worth $52 billion? Holy 🤬.
And he spends a large portion of it to motivate politicians to create laws so that people like myself have to give my money to causes he thinks I should. The trademark of a rich socialist.

Just try asking for a price quote on a most medical procedures and see where that gets you, they can’t possibly give you an accurate quote there’s just too many variables. The truth is you cannot make a apples to apples comparison between DR. and any other trade or profession.
Actually you can ask them. They won't know immediately because they rarely, if ever, have to give quotes but they can work out a deal with you on simpler procedures. But whenever you go into a hospital you are supposed to sign waivers for everything they will possibly do to you. Don't sign for the things you aren't willing to pay for.

It is that simple, my wife did not sign a waiver for a C-section when she had her baby. I was there to sign it if it became life-saving necessary, but we did not want a C-section, so we didn't sign the waiver.
 
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In fact, those libertarian ideals provide a framework to fight against human rights abuses, but, as the history of the U.S. shows, libertarian ideals are not enough. In practice, the rich & powerful will continue to use their wealth & power to take advantage of the poor & weak.

Still waiting for any sort of evidence of this. You gave me a lot of evidence to the contrary.

I'll leave the last word to that unrelenting socialist Warren Buffet:

Who was proven a liar by two random individuals on a random video game internet message board. It doesn't take much to see through that crap.
 
Do I really have to point out how completely intellectually & morally bankrupt your argument is? If you live in a society where 70% of the people enjoy "more personal freedoms", but 30% are enslaved, or second-class citizens deprived of basic rights, is that a society in which people really enjoy "more personal freedoms?"

Some people did. I'd like to see everyone live like they did. And that's possible because slavery isn't required for personal freedoms - which is why I'm criticizing you for continually using slavery to impeach the foundation of the US.

What is "intellectually bankrupt" about me wanting our government to shrink so that EVERYONE (this time) can be more free?

..it's clear to me that balancing the principles of individual liberty with collective welfare, has led to a period of unparalleled general prosperity, peace & well-being in the West.

Apropos...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...32046893848.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_opinion
 
Forbes last we ran an article discussing some internal documents from companies that show some of the possible hidden costs in this health care reform, and tells how Democrat politicians looking to make an example out of these "evil corporations" in hearings quickly canceled all proceedings after seeing the documents themselves.

So, while the president and Democrats have accused everyone opposed to this reform of misinformation they are being caught purposely not revealing the information to the public by canceling hearings after they found out they would result in the opposite story they were hoping to tell.

I wonder why this information isn't on my evening network news.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/05/news/companies/dropping_benefits.fortune/

Documents reveal AT&T, Verizon, others, thought about dropping employer-sponsored benefits

att_healthcare.top.gif


(Fortune) -- The great mystery surrounding the historic health care bill is how the corporations that provide coverage for most Americans -- coverage they know and prize -- will react to the new law's radically different regime of subsidies, penalties, and taxes. Now, we're getting a remarkable inside look at the options AT&T, Deere, and other big companies are weighing to deal with the new legislation.

Internal documents recently reviewed by Fortune, originally requested by Congress, show what the bill's critics predicted, and what its champions dreaded: many large companies are examining a course that was heretofore unthinkable, dumping the health care coverage they provide to their workers in exchange for paying penalty fees to the government.

That would dismantle the employer-based system that has reigned since World War II. It would also seem to contradict President Obama's statements that Americans who like their current plans could keep them. And as we'll see, it would hugely magnify the projected costs for the bill, which controls deficits only by assuming that America's employers would remain the backbone of the nation's health care system.

Hence, health-care reform risks becoming a victim of unintended consequences. Amazingly, the corporate documents that prove this point became public because of a different set of unintended consequences: they told a story far different than the one the politicians who demanded them expected.

Why the write-downs happened but the hearings didn't

In the days after President Obama signed the bill on March 24, a number of companies announced big write downs due to some fiscal changes it ushered in. The legislation eliminated a company's right to deduct the federal retiree drug-benefit subsidy from their corporate taxes. That reduced projected revenue. As a result, AT&T (T, Fortune 500) and Verizon (VZ, Fortune 500) took well-publicized charges of around $1 billion.

The announcements greatly annoyed Representative Henry Waxman, who accused the companies of using the big numbers to exaggerate health care reform's burden on employers. Waxman, chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, demanded that they turn over their confidential memos, and summoned their top executives for hearings.

But Waxman didn't simply request documents related to the write down issue. He wanted every document the companies created that discussed what the bill would do to their most uncontrollable expense: healthcare costs.

The request yielded 1,100 pages of documents from four major employers: AT&T, Verizon, Caterpillar and Deere (DE, Fortune 500). No sooner did the Democrats on the Energy Committee read them than they abruptly cancelled the hearings. On April 14, the Committee's majority staff issued a memo stating that the write downs were "proper and in accordance with SEC rules." The committee also stated that the memos took a generally sunny view of the new legislation. The documents, said the Democrats' memo, show that "the overall impact of health reform on large employers could be beneficial."

Nowhere in the five-page report did the majority staff mention that not one, but all four companies, were weighing the costs and benefits of dropping their coverage.

AT&T produced a PowerPoint slide entitled "Medical Cost Versus No Coverage Penalty." A document prepared for Verizon by consulting firm Hewitt Resources stated, "Even though the proposed assessments [on companies that do not provide health care] are material, they are modest when compared to the average cost of health care," and that to avoid costs and regulations, "employers may consider exiting the health care market and send employees to the Exchanges." (Under the new bill, employees who lose their coverage will purchase health care through state-run exchanges.)

Kenneth Huhn, vice president of labor relations at Deere, said in an internal email that his company should look at the alternatives to providing health benefits, which "would amount to denying coverage and just paying the penalty," and that he felt he already had the ability to make this change under his company's labor agreement. Caterpillar felt it would have to give "serious consideration" to the penalty option.

It's these analyses -- which show it's a lot cheaper to "pay" than to "play" -- that threaten to overthrow the traditional architecture of health care.

The cost side

Indeed, companies are far more likely to cease providing coverage if they predict the bill will lift rather than flatten the cost curve. Deere, for example said, "We do expect double digit health care increases as most Americans will now have insurance and providers try to absorb the 15% uninsured into a practice."

Both Caterpillar (CAT, Fortune 500) and Verizon believe the requirement to allow dependents to remain on their parents' policies until age 26 will prove costly. Caterpillar puts the added expense at $20 million a year.

How two new taxes and the employer penalty change the health care calculus

First, there is the "Cadillac Tax" on expensive plans. This is a 40% excise tax on policies that cost over $8,500 for an individual or $23,000 for a family. Verizon's document predicts the tax will cost its employees $255 million a year when it starts in 2018, and rise sharply from there. Hewitt also isn't sure that Verizon can pass on the full tax to its employees; so it could impose a heavy weight on the company as well. "Many [have] characterized this tax as a pass-through to the consumer," says the Verizon document. "However, there will be significant legal and bargaining risks to overcome for this to be the case for Verizon."

In a statement to Fortune, Verizon said it is not, "considering or even contemplating" the plans laid out in the report, though records show the company did send the report to its board shortly after the reform plan was passed by Congress.

Second, the bill imposes new taxes on drug manufacturers, medical device-makers, and health insurance providers. Hewitt leaves little doubt Verizon will be paying for them: "These provisions are fees or excise taxes that will be shifted to employers through increased fees and rates."

Caterpillar and AT&T actually spell out the cost differences: Caterpillar did its estimate in November, when the most likely legislation would have imposed an 8% payroll tax on companies that do not provide coverage. Even with that immense penalty, Caterpillar stated that it could shave $25 million a year, or almost 10% from its bill. Now, because the $2,000 is far lower than 8%, it could reduce its bill by over 70%, by Fortune's estimate. Caterpillar did not respond to a request for comment.

AT&T revealed that it spends $2.4 billion a year on coverage for its almost 300,000 active employees, a number that would fall to $600 million if AT&T stopped providing health care coverage and paid the penalty option instead. AT&T declined comment.

So what happens to the employees who get dropped?

And why didn't these big employers drop employee coverage a long time ago? The Congressional Budget Office, in its crucial cost estimates of the bill, projected that company plans will cover more employees ten years from now than today. The reason the bill doesn't add to the deficit, the CBO states, is that fewer than 25 million Americans will be collecting the subsidies the bill mandates in 2020.

Those subsidies are indeed big: families of four earning between $22,000 and $88,000 would pay between 2% and 9.5% of their incomes on premiums; the federal government would pay the rest. So policies for a family making $66,000 would cost them just $5,300 a year with the government picking up the difference: more than $10,000 by most estimates.

As bean counters know, that's not a bad deal for a company's rank-and-file, and it's a great deal for the companies themselves. In a competitive labor market, the employers that shed their plans will need to give their employees a big raise, and those raises could be higher, even after taxes, than the premiums the employees will pay in the exchanges.

What does it mean for health care reform if the employer-sponsored regime collapses? By Fortune's reckoning, each person who's dropped would cost the government an average of around $2,100 after deducting the extra taxes collected on their additional pay. So if 50% of people covered by company plans get dumped, federal health care costs will rise by $160 billion a year in 2016, in addition to the $93 billion in subsidies already forecast by the CBO. Of course, as we've seen throughout the health care reform process, it's impossible to know for certain what the unintended consequences of these actions will be.
 
What undiluted ********. Yet-undiscovered pygmy tribes in Borneo already knew this would be the result of such an insane plan, but no, the Democrats smelled blood and had to go for it.

Of course, this is (I'm sure) exactly what they wanted to happen, so that 3 years from now when the current "plan" reaches its inevitable failure, they can then step in with the socialized health care they wanted all along.

I'm utterly pissed off.
 
Yeah, and collect a bunch of money in penalties to line their pockets while people suffer the consequences of being released from coverage all together.

But this is kind of a good thing for the company my dad is trying to build. Hopefully we get it off the ground before people get dumped.
 
By that time there won't be very many democrats left in Washington, if anybody has any brains left.

One can hope. (Oh, wait, that's been tried. Crap!)
 
By that time there won't be very many democrats left in Washington, if anybody has any brains left.

One can hope. (Oh, wait, that's been tried. Crap!)
Since this is just Mitt Romney's plan for Massachusetts on a national scale, I can't even say that having had a Republican in office would have prevented this from happening.
 
Can somebody please enlighten me on what the 🤬 they're trying to achieve with a 40% tax on expensive (good) Health Care plans? What and who exactly is that going to help? (Oh right, the "Underprivileged". I'm so tired of seeing governments all over the world tax the rich higher just because "they can deal with it")

I'm not even American and I'm beyond pissed off.
 
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