Differences in car performance between different game versions?

[Greycap]

Speeds were 196.31mph, 196.50mph and 196.31mph in each of the 3 runs I did. This was with the PAL GT4, and Shows the viper to be almost 8mph slower in stock form than in the NTSC version.

I just read this in the Three Hundred Miles Per Hour thread and it certainly caught my attention. Do the cars have different performance figures in different versions? Are WRS competitions biased in some cases? Does this, for example, give an answer to the biggest question of GT4:

Is the Mission 34 really as hard in the NTSC version as the Americans make it sound?

Feel free to discuss!

- R -

 

[Bram Turismo]

There was a thread posted on this a while ago in the WRS section:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=87195&highlight=ntsc+pal


Cars in NTSC seem to accelerate faster...

 

[MasterStorm]

I'm more expreienced than most when it comes to high speed tuning in GT4, so it's always bothered me that I'm almost 20mph off the kind of speeds some people have reached in the Toyota GT-One, especially when I'm so competitive with other cars. I've always thought that 'surely someone with my experience at high speed tuning should at least be able to get close to the record'. I also know that I-Runner, another fantastic high speed tuner running the PAL GT4 has expressed similar frustration over the GT-One.

Theres a number of other cars that fall into this category (cars that just seemed slower to me), and the Team Oreca Viper is one of them. I remember trying to break 300mph with it and not even getting close, but then being a little surprised to see it already on the 300mph club leader board. That speed was done by an NTSC user. Thankfully, the majority of cars seem pretty evenly matched between NTSC. If there is a difference, it certainly isn't noticeable.

The only possible reasons for this are that either these cars are blessed with a tuning glitch that I don't know of (such as the aerodynamics glitch used in my 325mph Skyline), or that the cars are simply different between the versions of the game. My personal feeling has always been the latter, but with people unwilling to give away high speed set ups, I've never been able to confirm this. Now that the stock speeds for the Team Oreca Viper have been posted though, it's pretty clear (to me at least) that the cars are not the same between the versions. When 2 NTSC users have posted near identical speeds, why would I be almost 8mph off?

I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the differences do affect mission 34, but this is pretty much untestable without owning both copies. I find it hard that given the difficulty the mission is in the PAL version, that so many people would be able the claimed 11 seconds extra needed. Theres only so much further the car can be pushed, and that kind of difference is beyond the reach of most people. Don't take this the wrong way and think that I'm suggesting the NTSC guys have it easy: far from it.For all I know the NTSC version may still be the more difficult of the two... I just don't think it's 11 seconds more difficult.

 

[BobK]

I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the differences do affect mission 34, but this is pretty much untestable without owning both copies. I find it hard that given the difficulty the mission is in the PAL version, that so many people would be able the claimed 11 seconds extra needed. Theres only so much further the car can be pushed, and that kind of difference is beyond the reach of most people. Don't take this the wrong way and think that I'm suggesting the NTSC guys have it easy: far from it.For all I know the NTSC version may still be the more difficult of the two... I just don't think it's 11 seconds more difficult.

The 11 second difference comes from an extra 8 seconds before the start, and the 300SL is said to be about 3 seconds faster. Yet plenty of NTSC folks have completed Mission 34 so I'd be inclined to agree that the SLR McLaren is itself faster in the NTSC version than in the PAL version, much as we've already documented the NTSC Team Orega Viper is faster than the PAL version.

I'd agree, though, the only way to tell which one is really harder is for the same person to do both.

Aside from that, though, we can still make some measurements of top speeds to see if that gives any support for the idea the NTSC car is faster. So I bought another new SLR McLaren and dusted off an unused 300 SL coupe.

New cars, 0 mileage, no oil change, HP from the settings screen.

300 SL coupe, 215 HP: 151.08, 151.08, 151.08 mph (how's that for consistent?)
SLR McLaren, 625 HP: 216.07, 216.00, 215.87 mph.

Would anybody with the PAL version care to try these cars and post their speeds?

It might also be interesting to try the Toyota 2000GT, the car used in Mission 11, since that has about a four second difference between NTSC and PAL. Interestingly, the advantage is the other way around on this one with NTSC having the edge.

 

[TuneRVisioN]

Mission 34 isn't that tough, took me about 7-8 tries, but the seattle mission and new york mission was irritating, as so as that skyline draft mission.

 

[Greycap]

Oddly enough, I myself have always found the Seattle and especially the New York missions to be just walks in the park, and I'm a PAL player... I have no idea how I would do in Mission 34 now (probably should give it a shot) but I can definitely win the New York one (Mission 11) by some six seconds every single time I drive it even fairly well...

Props for everyone so far for not turning this into a flaming war between the NTSC users and the PAL users, the possibility was there. 👍

- R -

 

[MasterStorm]

The 11 second difference comes from an extra 8 seconds before the start, and the 300SL is said to be about 3 seconds faster.

I know where the 11 seconds comes from; what I meant was that due to car differences, I didn't think that NTSC users needed to find 11 seconds from driving ability alone. To gain 11 seconds on what's already a quick lap isn't exactly easy, and so my thoughts have always been that their must be car differences negating much of the time difference.

300 SL coupe, 215 HP: 151.08, 151.08, 151.08 mph (how's that for consistent?)
SLR McLaren, 625 HP: 216.07, 216.00, 215.87 mph.

Would anybody with the PAL version care to try these cars and post their speeds?

Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Coupe '54: 151.09, 151.08 and 151.06mph
Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren '03: 214.26, 215.12 and 214.49mph

Both cars were stock, without an oil change. The 300 SL Coupe comes out looking pretty much identical, at least in terms of top speed. The SLR however, seems slower in the PAL version, by around 1.5mph. To reach the 215.12mph run, I had to really nail the line through the corner. 👍

 

[AOS-]

if they accel faster, then it's fun!..

 

[Dracwolley]

Interestingly, the advantage is the other way around on this one with NTSC having the edge.

I'm just confused. Does all this mean NTSC has "the edge" or does PAL?

 

[wfooshee]

Mission 18 is considerably different between PAL and NTSC as well. We had a discussion some time ago (2 years ago, to the day, as a metter of fact) in the original Mission Hall thread (from before each mission was given its own thread). Start around post 1138 and read down.

 

[BobK]

I'm just confused. Does all this mean NTSC has "the edge" or does PAL?

The NTSC version of Mission 11 is easier than the PAL version, by about 4 seconds.

 

[bjb]

It's all about skill someone with out skill will always find something to complain about it's just what people do, I do it you most likely do it too. After you do them more then once it's a walk in the park and there maybe some diffrents in the versions but a good driver can always find a way past it. I.E cheeting.

 

[Jetboy.]

Addressing to Bobk and MasterStorm: I believe both of you chaps should have some other bouts testing cars with open ended trannies. What I mean, to clarify, is that the 300Sl was more a control test than anything. It had more than anough power to reach its limited speed of 151.08, regardless of game.

Try out the

Ford GT
Saleen S7
Audi R8 LeMans Quattro
Zonda Series
Corvette Z06....etc.


These cars all run into either an aerodynamic wall and top out, or run out of power. (technically it's a mixture of both). These would be prime in testing. 👍



Trying to help.

Cheers,
Jetboy

 

[MasterStorm]

I believe both of you chaps should have some other bouts testing cars with open ended trannies.

We've tried both the Team Oreca Viper, which was 8mph slower under PAL despite having an oil change (the NTSC speed had no oil change). We also tried the Toyota GT-One, which seemed around 8mph slower under PAL (both versions were run without an oil change). Those differences are much more significant than the few mph seen with the McLaren SLR, and are much harder to justify with handling alone.

Thanks for the suggestions of other cars to try. My personal feeling is that only a small selection of cars are different between PAL and NTSC, and I've never had a reason to suspect any of the cars you listed. I'm sure if we have time we can try them out though, there might be a small difference that would be negligible under more normal circumstances. 👍

 

[BobK]

I'd be up for some more testing, but I'm not sure how useful the results would really be. The top speed of the Mercedes-Benz 300SL, for instance, is identical in both NTSC and PAL, yet it gets around Nürburgring in about three seconds less in the NTSC version of Mission 34. This clearly indicates that something else is different somewhere.

We can accurately measure top speed, acceleration and braking distance. Offhand I can't think of anything else to measure (would be nice to have a skid pad, wouldn't it?). Yet there are dozens, if not hundreds, of things that affect a car's performance.

I wonder if this might not be in part at least why PD decided to drop online racing support from GT4?

 

[Jetboy.]

I've never had a reason to suspect any of the cars you listed. I'm sure if we have time we can try them out though, there might be a small difference that would be negligible under more normal circumstances. 👍

True, very true. The Corvette is what I'm realy wondering about, due to the low 6th Gear, which could mean a real signifigant difference. Three to four "hidden" horespower can mean well over 12-20 mph difference on top end, until you downshift back to fifth and take it back to 170. I dunno, but my curiosity is piqued. 👍




Cheers,
Jetboy

 

[Famine]

True, very true. The Corvette is what I'm realy wondering about, due to the low 6th Gear, which could mean a real signifigant difference. Three to four "hidden" horespower can mean well over 12-20 mph difference on top end

Depends wholly on the car.

4hp on a 400hp car is an increase of 1%, which represents an increase in the aerodynamic speed limit of the car of just about 0.01%.

A 10% increase in speed - say 20mph on 200mph - requires a 33% increase in power*.


*Caveat - wheel power.

 

[Jetboy.]

I see. Well, it was merely presumed. But, thank you for that tidbit.


Cheers,
Jetboy

 

[Uncle Harry]

Has any body checked the actual length of the two tracks in the two versions? Does each version run differing values on the driving aids?

I reckon the physics (McLaren grip levels) feel different every time I restart this mission in PAL.
Is it something to do with the size of the track file and the PS2 struggles to keep up.

My best is a 9.03.3 with MOV of 15.3 seconds. Other runs I struggle to stay on the road.

Top speed in PAL without draft is about 295-298. If you can draft the two cars up the Hill on the long final straight that can go up to 315-318 kmh.

 

[Michael88]

I always wondered about that. Some people playing the NTSC version of GT5 always complain about the Toyota-7 in the game at the World Championship, but in my PAL version the T-7 never makes it above the 4th place because the trubos dont spool up fast enough at short tracks to dust the competition. The AI really struggles with it.

 

[Stevisiov]

I always wondered about that. Some people playing the NTSC version of GT5 always complain about the Toyota-7 in the game at the World Championship, but in my PAL version the T-7 never makes it above the 4th place because the trubos dont spool up fast enough at short tracks to dust the competition. The AI really struggles with it.

I also find the Toyota 7 struggles to beat its opponent AI's they appear lack control round the corners, much like the AI for the Gillet Vertigo, I am on PAL aswell