DIRT 5: General Discussion

[T0MMY3688]

The crucial thing is that fictional cars have to be something you can imagine being used in offroad racing. If Codies decided to use the Bugatti Veyron as an R-GT vehicle in DiRT 5, then we would have a problem.... Or would we?

If they put a roll cage, increase ride height, some “tough” fenders on and light bars, like the one off Huracan Sterrato Concept, I won’t mind seeing something that ridiculous. It might be stupidly fun.

Fictional spec cars should looks right in its class.

 

[SlimCharles]

Personally, I think this one is less of an issue in an arcade racing game. A good portion of the vehicles in DiRT 2 were made up and look at how fondly remembered that game is.

The crucial thing is that fictional cars have to be something you can imagine being used in offroad racing. If Codies decided to use the Bugatti Veyron as an R-GT vehicle in DiRT 5, then we would have a problem.... Or would we?

I always prefere real cars: the automotive universe is so inmense that there isn't any need of inventing cars.

Look at Milestone. Gravel in particular has an exquisite car list, and it doesn't have made up cars (not that I've noticed). The game is meant to be a bit looney, so I'm guessing that's why the cars have a crazier look. I how they filled that purpose? By getting the Rally Safari versions. Genius.

I can handle made up cars in arcade games more or less (specially if that means what you said like Veyron rally car or other petrolhead dream versions), but I was talking of DR2.0 RGT versions. And they didn't even create plausible rally cars. A freaking Camaro

 

[T0MMY3688]

I can handle made up cars in arcade games more or less (specially if that means what you said like Veyron rally car or other petrolhead dream versions), but I was talking of DR2.0 RGT versions. And they didn't even create plausible rally cars. A freaking Camaro

The GT4 as R-GT in DR2 was fine by me, it looks right when put side by side with the Porsche and Aston Martin R-GT. There are more weird classing in GRID, like Lancia Delta in the Hot Hatch DLC just looks off in its class.

But with Dirt 5 direction, I would love to see more weird stuff in it since real world car classes don’t seem to apply here anyway. Just dump a huge variety in it and I’ll be happy.

 

[Volksauto]

It’s about there’s a racing game with 4-way split screen (besides Mario kart). I love playing with friends and it’s a shame when we can only play two player on Forza or GT.

 

[SlimCharles]

Very clever move by Codemasters. For some reason, devs don't care at all about split screen.

If you want to play racing games with people in the same tv, theirs is the only possible option.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Very clever move by Codemasters. For some reason, devs don't care at all about split screen.

If you want to play racing games with people in the same tv, theirs is the only possible option.

They must have unlocked something in Ego or found a good optimisation as both this and then upcoming F1 2020 have split screen.

 

[JoshMead]

If you want to play racing games with people in the same tv, theirs is the only possible option.

Just one of the issues with arcade racers migrating to open world. Splitscreen is nigh impossible in that situation with current technology.

I think the only place splitscreen is still a priority are Sci-Fi/futuristic/antigrav racers. Hopefully Dirt 5 can, at the very least, influence other racing devs to consider bringing that back.

Last gen my brother and myself figured that games would take the next step forward and bring splitscreen online. Instead its a dozen or so games away from becoming a feature of the past.

 

[Sage Ages]

Nothing to do with EGO? EVO themselves said Onrush engine was a combination of the EGO engine and other stuff

Except they didn't. They said that they had looked into EGO at the time of developing it. It's possible that some elements of that were incorporated into the new engine but it isn't the same thing by a long shot.

It's also not the Driveclub engine as some people have suggested, although there's likely some degree of commonality between that and the OnRush/Dirt5 engine. It is made by the same studio after all.

but more likely, Codies already has these models from previous Grid games and as usual they take the least effort approach in picking what cars to include in the game...

If you are suggesting that Codemasters is still using assets from Grid 2/Grid: Autosport, you would be incorrect.

 

[SlimCharles]

Except they didn't. They said that they had looked into EGO at the time of developing it. It's possible that some elements of that were incorporated into the new engine but it isn't the same thing by a long shot.

It's also not the Driveclub engine as some people have suggested, although there's likely some degree of commonality between that and the OnRush/Dirt5 engine. It is made by the same studio after all.

He just literally said: We "took a look at the EGO engine, decided how we could take the EGO engine and build up from that point".

More:
"ONRUSH has been built on a bespoke engine, rather than a straight copy of the EGO engine used on other titles. However, that isn’t to say that there aren’t elements of the EGO engine that have been used – it’s just that using an engine designed and tweaked to be a sim engine wouldn’t deliver the style of racing that ONRUSH needs"

What degree of relation with the EGO engine that means? Well, definetly more than "Nothing to do with the EGO engine".

 

[Sage Ages]

The point still stands. It's more OnRush than it is EGO.

 

[SlimCharles]

If only I didn't have enough "forum experience" to know what are you doing...

Ok. You win.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

If you are suggesting that Codemasters is still using assets from Grid 2/Grid: Autosport, you would be incorrect.

I didn't specify which Grid game. The Aston and Porsche in the trailer looks like it's lifted straight from Grid 2019's GT Group 2 category (just modified with front light bars). The Mustang has been in every Grid game since the original one, albeit in Boss 302/Mach 1 form and this one seems to be the base 1965 model so I'll give them that. Apart from that the other cars I can identify are Citroen C5 and Stratos, which are both also in recent Dirt games. The only truly new car in that trailer is Ariel Nomad.

I mean, would it be so hard to actually model cars for an offroad game separately than their circuit racing offerings???

----

BTW before anyone says PD also recycles cars in GT. Yes they do BUT they also added a few hundred new ones with each release:
GT5: 800 standards from GT4 + 200 new premiums
GT6: 1000 from GT6 + 200 new premiums
GTS: ~400 super premiums (granted, it takes less work to bring PS3 assets to PS4 level than PS2>PS3).

I really don't mind seeing cars and tracks from older games in the series returning, as long as they are in the game from Day 1 (aka not resold as DLC) AND they make sense in the context of the game and classes within, not feel shoehorned in just for the sake of padding car count (e.g. Veyron in Grid Hypercar Track Pack). I cannot believe there are people still defending CM after all their track record with how they handle recent games. They are just as bad as EA at this point, probably worse as the NFS team still have to come up with a completely new game world every game and that takes a lot more work.

EDIT: I knew mentioning GT is going to be kryptonite for some people The point I'm trying to make is, even with recycling assets, some blatant dupes (Renault Clio & Supra says hi) and a few oddball car selections here and there, GT still has a large number of other cars to play with. Not so with Codies as they can't play the numbers game - every slot has a lot more importance and there are dozens of other cars I'd like to drive instead of a Porsche and a Mustang offroad. And last I checked, PD supported the game monthly for 2 years with FREE cars & tracks. Not a single DLC until LH challenges (and I don't count microtransactions because you can perfectly buy all cars without them). It remains to be seen what is Codies plan for DLC in D5, but based on historical precedence I wouldn't bet against the usual tactics.

 

[Sage Ages]

The Aston and Porsche in the trailer looks like it's lifted straight from Grid 2019's GT Group 2 category (just modified with front light bars).

I mean, would it be so hard to actually model cars for an offroad game separately than their circuit racing offerings???

Except that both of those cars were originally in DR2.0 and are modeled after actual rally cars. The argument about them recycling assets would probably be more relevant to GRID than it would be here and even then, that's discounting whatever changes would've been needed to suit the game (not just visually, but on the technical side of things as well).

The Mustang has been in every Grid game since the original one, albeit in Boss 302/Mach 1 form and this one seems to be the base 1965 model so I'll give them that.

You're really clutching at straws with that one.

 

[NotThePrez]

The Mustang has been in every Grid game since the original one, albeit in Boss 302/Mach 1 form and this one seems to be the base 1965 model so I'll give them that.

So, this model Mustang hasn't been in every GRID game, then. I also don't remember us having access to a classic Mustang in off-road flavor.

I mean, would it be so hard to actually model cars for an offroad game separately than their circuit racing offerings???

You do realize that the 997 R-GT and the Aston GT4 are based on actual rally cars, yes? The models in Dirt Rally 2.0 (which I assume DiRT 5 will be using) are not at all the same to the ones found in GRID. Just because they don't fit you're image of what a rally car "should" be doesn't mean they're out of place.

BTW before anyone says PD also recycles cars in GT. Yes they do BUT they also added a few hundred new ones with each release:
GT5: 800 standards from GT4 + 200 new premiums
GT6: 1000 from GT6 + 200 new premiums
GTS: ~400 super premiums (granted, it takes less work to bring PS3 assets to PS4 level than PS2>PS3).

I haven't kept up with Gran Turismo in a while, but is that really what GT Sports cars are called now? That's some bad marketing malarkey if I've ever heard it.

In any case, I would happily take a few recycled cars that look good, sound good and feel the part over having the overwhelming majority of my cars being crappy looking, previous-gen models that have just been ported over to artificially bloat the car list. I personally still can't believe that the GT community found that even remotely acceptable. I can only imagine the hate PD would've gotten if they did that from GT2 to GT3.

Also, I find it funny that you're giving Codemasters crap for having cars that are "out of place," when GT Sport has things like the Veyron GT4, Acura NSX Group B rally car (really most of the Group B category), and a laser-powered "Chapparall."

I really don't mind seeing cars and tracks from older games in the series returning, as long as they are in the game from Day 1 (aka not resold as DLC) AND they make sense in the context of the game and classes within, not feel shoehorned in just for the sake of padding car count (e.g. Veyron in Grid Hypercar Track Pack).

Yet you use Gran Turismo of all things to make your case? Oh, come now.

I cannot believe there are people still defending CM after all their track record with how they handle recent games. They are just as bad as EA at this point, probably worse as the NFS team still have to come up with a completely new game world every game and that takes a lot more work.

Gonna need you to take it down about 20% there, Squirrelly Dan. Your hate-flag for Codies is really noticeable atm.

Has Codemasters missed the mark quite a bit recently? Absolutely. Is their DLC pretty meh overall? Sure. Does that warrant the studio being burned at the stake? No, at least not to me. People probably defend them because their games are still perfectly playable, usually pretty fun and have something that makes them memorable. Even GRID 2019, despite being the most lackluster imo, has some neat cars, some pretty interesting selections within its small track list, and can create a pretty fun racing experience. It's also surprisingly fun doing hot laps to try and go after leaderboard records. Rally 2.0, despite lacking in things to do, keeps me coming back because it's damn hard and getting better at it is truly satisfying.

Perhaps wait for more substantial news to come out about DiRT 5 before hating on it, yeah? At least so that we can get to a point where an actual picture of the game can be painted?

 

[T0MMY3688]

I mean, would it be so hard to actually model cars for an offroad game separately than their circuit racing offerings???

I think the issue has been Grid and Dirt is made by the same team until Dirt 5, I don't think they have enough time and man power to create so many unique cars for 2 different franchise. They did fine at retooling some of those model for Grid, the Stratos and A110 variant in Grid do exist as well.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Except that both of those cars were originally in DR2.0 and are modeled after actual rally cars. The argument about them recycling assets would probably be more relevant to GRID than it would be here and even then, that's discounting whatever changes would've been needed to suit the game (not just visually, but on the technical side of things as well).

Ah, I haven't even got round to playing DR2, so I didn't know they existed there before GRID 2019. It makes it doubly worse then, recycling it for 2 different games in a row.

Any under the skin changes are likely just a few lines of code. I do not believe for one second Codies spend that much time on physics changes.

You're really clutching at straws with that one.

Point taken. I still wouldn't pick a Mustang to showcase in a trailer if I'm making a rally game though.

-----

@NotThePrez Hate is probably too strong a word. It's more like disappointment when an old friend you know could be better, but chose not to because it's easier that way. I have lots of problems with GT too believe me, but I can see Kaz' long term vision so I'm able to sympathize with their short term shortcomings. Whereas with Codies their games used to have so much passion but lately their offerings just feel like cynical cash grabs.

Anyway, as you said not much else to say at this point with limited info. I used to genuinely love Codies. I played TOCA and CMR1 back on PS1, and their PS3 offerings from RDG to Dirt 3 were some of the best games I've ever played. But playing through GRID 2019 is a painful reminder of what used to be. If this is Milestone or any other B-developer I wouldn't complain so much. But Codies standards used to be different. I'll be the first person to be happy if they can turn the tide with D5, but I'll believe it when I have the game in my hands

Also ninja edited my previous post for more clarity. But I'm happy to draw a line in the sand here to prevent this devolving into another one of those multi page arguments.

 

[T0MMY3688]

Ah, I haven't even got round to playing DR2, so I didn't know they existed there before GRID 2019. It makes it doubly worse then, recycling it for 2 different games in a row.

Any under the skin changes are likely just a few lines of code. I do not believe for one second Codies spend that much time on physics changes.

I don't think that is bad in any way, racing game franchise always reuse the cars from previous games. The complains on Codemaster was reselling a huge chunk of previous game content as DLC, while games like Project CARS could retain its existing track content for its sequel.

I think is rather ridiculous to expect the game to have only new content and no old asset, Forza Horizon 4 will launch with less than a 1/4 of cars and NFS Heat will just have 10 cars if we exclude the old and variants of previous game cars.

 

[Tmo343]

If they put a roll cage, increase ride height, some “tough” fenders on and light bars, like the one off Huracan Sterrato Concept, I won’t mind seeing something that ridiculous. It might be stupidly fun.

Fictional spec cars should looks right in its class.

I believe that isn't a one off actually and it'll go into production as the special edition Huracan in 2021 with around 500 - 1000 cars at 240k euro as Lamborghini has the Huracan's future planned to 2023 with a hardcore STO Supertrofeo Omlagato in 2020, potentially a hybrid in 2022 and then an even faster SV in 2023 as the final huracan model. Hopefully we'll end up seeing the Sterrato in racing games as it seems like it'd be a fun car especially as the AWD and TCS has been set up for a more tail happy rear biased set up

 

[FT-1]

The cars Codemasters currently use are authentic enough to the point it shouldn't be a problem if existing models are included again, provided they are in the game from launch, or free add-ons if they are added afterwards.

For the most part, I think GRID 2019 shows Codies took a better approach to DLC than they did with DiRT Rally 2.0. Out of the 16 cars added post-launch, the Bugatti Veyron Supersport (free rental) and Nissan GT-R GT500 (free for all players) were the only direct ports from earlier GRID games.

As for the Clio S1600 (Another free rental), that is new to the GRID Series while the Lancia Delta has a few mods to differentiate it from the model used in Autosport.

 

[Sage Ages]

Ah, I haven't even got round to playing DR2, so I didn't know they existed there before GRID 2019. It makes it doubly worse then, recycling it for 2 different games in a row.

Is it though? It's not like these are cars that are completely inappropriate for the setting or anything. Is it that unreasonable that rally cars from one DiRT game show up in another DiRT game?

Any under the skin changes are likely just a few lines of code. I do not believe for one second Codies spend that much time on physics changes.

It can be many things. Increases in polygon budgets, changes in the damage system, etc. Lots of things that may not be immediately obvious until you start doing some scrutinizing. Obviously assets will be reused where available but copy-paste jobs are quite rare in practice.

 

[SlimCharles]

We are talking of the company that straight ripped off the 3d model for an f1 car that some modder made for Rfactor (or maybe Assetto, not sure).

 

[FoRiZon]

We are talking of the company that straight ripped off the 3d model for an f1 car that some modder made for Rfactor (or maybe Assetto, not sure).

Proof?

 

[MrCrynox]

Proof?

I'm pretty sure it was discussed on GTP at the time, can anyone remember it wasn't that long ago..?

 

[SlimCharles]

Here is the op of the modder.
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/how-did-a-f2002-mod-from-ac-end-up-in-f1-2017.142884/

I wonder how it ended. @seco46 Any clue?

 

[Sage Ages]

To my knowledge, the F1 guys have nothing to do with what's going on with DiRT/GRID anyways.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Here is the op of the modder.
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/how-did-a-f2002-mod-from-ac-end-up-in-f1-2017.142884/

I wonder how it ended. @seco46 Any clue?

He asked for proof, not a 13 page argument that resolved nothing.

I don't know why some people bother with these parts if all you wanna do is bash Codies and complain profusely about illogical things?

 

[Sage Ages]

They're free to bash them all they want. I just wish they used some more sound arguments than "Codies reuses cars from Grid 1".

 

[seco46]

Here is the op of the modder.
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/how-did-a-f2002-mod-from-ac-end-up-in-f1-2017.142884/

I wonder how it ended. @seco46 Any clue?

Nothing new as far as I know, even when they have continued to use that car's model.

He asked for proof, not a 13 page argument that resolved nothing.

I don't know why some people bother with these parts if all you wanna do is bash Codies and complain profusely about illogical things?

Is a proof, both 3D car models have in common more than 50% of the polygons, if you know something about 3D it is practically impossible that there is so much in common between 2 models made from scratch of the same object.

 

[T0MMY3688]

To my knowledge, the F1 guys have nothing to do with what's going on with DiRT/GRID anyways.

Not the F1 team fault but Codemaster do have a a studio in Malaysia that made assets for all its games.

It is also a one off mistake that Codemaster did, their cars are quite common for modders to ripped and if they were to steal more mods someone would have spotted it.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Is a proof, both 3D car models have in common more than 50% of the polygons, if you know something about 3D it is practically impossible that there is so much in common between 2 models made from scratch of the same object.

I'd like to point out I didn't say they didn't use the model.

But if you're going to distribute it on a a site that allows use of models. Expect it to, you know, get used?

Plus, once it got out that he was charging money for a unlicensed Ferrari modem, the model quickly disappeared.

And finally, as pointed out below, the criticism around this can't be levelled at Codemasters, its very highly probably they had no idea until the forums posts started, at which point it was clearly dealt with swiftly behind the scenes.

What none of this changes, is the ridiculous notion that people expect new games to have new assets built from the ground up despite having perfectly good ones already. Citing PD as an example and the going BUT they put more cars in as well is defeating the whole point of the argument @LeGeNd-1 that game is meant to have hundreds, difference being most of those reused models were not fit for purpose. The models used in Grid, Dirt etc clearly are, they are in fact excellent models.

Also worth noting that despite its smaller car list, DR2.0 had 25 new cars to the Dirt series. Now using your GT example of what, 800 old to 200 premium in GT5 or 800 old and 400 premium in GT6, 80% reused and 66% reused respectively. DR2.0 sits at 66% reused content as well, so the "but PD did this" argument falls flat as they have exactly the same percentage of reuse. Difference being, DR2.0 has consistent quality across the whole range of cars.