DiRT Rally 2.0 General Discussion

[merseyxshore]

I love sharing this hot take, but 4WD Group B is my least favourite era of top-flight rally cars, both to watch and in games

 

[tbtstt]

I love sharing this hot take, but 4WD Group B is my least favourite era of top-flight rally cars, both to watch and in games

That's because the late 90's were the best. Facts.

 

[merseyxshore]

That's because the late 90's were the best. Facts.

I love this meme haha

 

[Jtheripper]

Those cars feel accurate in that they would tend to understeer in reality.

In game (as in reality) they need to be thrown into corners aggressively with left foot braking, using the weight shift to set the car sideways, then using the power to continue the slide out of the corner.

Once this clicks with you, go back and watch old videos of the same cars, you’ll find the characteristics are quite similar to how they’re modelled in game.

Hey Frank, yeah i get that of course, it's rally, i throw most cars sideways, do Scandinavian flick, use weight transfer..

I just went back to it today, and it does feel perfect actually as you said.

I dont know, yesterday i must have been out of it, messed something up, or was bugged.

What a raw, visceral, immersive, believable feel in cockpit view.

Maybe cause i had been on wrc9 a lot in last days, there's barely any understeer in that, and 4x4 cars oversteer so easily.
You barely need throw them.

It's a great game but seems still lacking vs dr2 in weight feel, and accurate representation of different cars.
Cars all brake the same, oversteer the same almost.
I like it alot and is a lot of fun but still. Much more simcade, less hardcore sim, you easily get away with bad moves. And get lazy in your driving, easy fun in comparison.

Just the landing of jumps in dr2 has so much more feel, weight transfer etc.

How would you compare wrc10 vs 9 and dr2, does 10 get much closer?
I know it's suppose to have a little more weight transfer, longer brake distances etc.

I sure hope optimization is better in 10 and gen on base ps4, 9 still gets to maybe 15 fps in rugged, coarse gravel stages,,with the shaking in cockpit view, it gets nauseating, hurts eyes even.
Its just ok in smoother sections.

Generations is a little more again supposedly.

Edit: hay dear god lol, been a while I've been on dr2, what a thrill, satisfaction when you get on with it.
Went back to the delta to check again my difficulty with handling curves with it last day.

Was in greece, lot hairpins, this car needs even more throwing and flicking, especially slow curves you dont have as much momentum.

Then to not overdo the throttle and blip the brake often to help it along.
Im trying avoid using the handbrake as a crutch, to try handle the car, well like i usually do.
Handbrake has it's usefulness of course.

Makes me breathe hard lol, and feel tired hands, feet, head but in a good way.
Feels so believable me.
What an immersive, challenging thrill.

Each car you need learn again how to handle it.
Still a gem for me.

 

[tbtstt]

I love this meme haha View attachment 1190603

Haha! I honestly think every era of the sport has something to offer. Group B certainly wasn't without merit, but social media users seem to have given it this ridiculous status in recent years.

Nostalgia is undoubtedly a factor in my choice, but Group A gave us so many performance car icons and an incredible era of competition, which was then followed by the introduction of the WRCar. Late 90's events where you had early WRCars and Group A mixing it up were just the best.

 

[fokuzx2]

over at GRF we are having a weekly podcast discussing all kind of GRF events in DR2.0 we usually also have some guest from our community.



we will appreciate every like and follow :-)

 

[merseyxshore]

Haha! I honestly think every era of the sport has something to offer. Group B certainly wasn't without merit, but social media users seem to have given it this ridiculous status in recent years.

Nostalgia is undoubtedly a factor in my choice, but Group A gave us so many performance car icons and an incredible era of competition, which was then followed by the introduction of the WRCar. Late 90's events where you had early WRCars and Group A mixing it up were just the best.

I agree tbh, group 4 and group A were probably my favourites to watch (and drive in rally games). I tend to lean towards anything that's more production-derived, one of the main appeals of rallying in the 90s was seeing 'normal' looking cars being chucked about by lunatics. The Sierras and M3s battling the Celicas and Legacys in the British Rally Championship in the late 80s and early 90s is on constant rotation on my TV!
Group B looked and sounded cool, but watching them on a tight hairpin is just embarrassing haha

 

[FrankieStail]

I sure hope optimization is better in 10 and gen on base ps4

I couldn’t honestly say if it’s any better on PS4 as I’m on PS5, but knowing kyloton I’d imagine it still runs rubbish on old platforms.
Even on well specced pc’s it can run that poor that there’s people I race with that have changed over to running it on PS5, so with that I’d hold fire until you upgrade.

I’d still put dr2 ahead of wrc for feeling of weight and even just the general feeling of driving a car, however wrc does feel much better on tarmac.

You do get a good feeling of the advanced aero on the wrc cars and also the ffb in wrc10 was a definite improvement over previous ones.

But ultimately every year I buy the new wrc title and after initial playing I always go away thinking that it’s just a tiny bit closer to being a great title but still always missing that magic something that is obvious in dirt rally.

 

[Jtheripper]

I couldn’t honestly say if it’s any better on PS4 as I’m on PS5, but knowing kyloton I’d imagine it still runs rubbish on old platforms.
Even on well specced pc’s it can run that poor that there’s people I race with that have changed over to running it on PS5, so with that I’d hold fire until you upgrade.

I’d still put dr2 ahead of wrc for feeling of weight and even just the general feeling of driving a car, however wrc does feel much better on tarmac.

You do get a good feeling of the advanced aero on the wrc cars and also the ffb in wrc10 was a definite improvement over previous ones.

But ultimately every year I buy the new wrc title and after initial playing I always go away thinking that it’s just a tiny bit closer to being a great title but still always missing that magic something that is obvious in dirt rally.

Well, for me even on tarmac, the driving feels way ahead in dr2 vs wrc9, because of the lack of mass inertia/momentum, gravity and suspension feel in 9, you dont feel much like you're throwing a car around in comparison.

Plus the steering feel is more believable to me, maybe i need still to adjust the ffb in wrc9 but i did tinker with it.

Much more satisfying in dr2, especially with older cars, like the integrale.

Modern cars like the current wrc2 cars do feel better than old ones on tarmac maybe in wrc.

On dirt well cars slide enough in wrc that i can feel more throwing them and feeling handling.

Depends on many things i guess, platform, hardware, ffb settings, and how you play too maybe.
It feels believable, intuitive, dependable to push to the limit, lot of feel, on wet or dry, in germany at least, haven't tested so much in a while in spain.
All cars with their own feel too.
Plus the movement feel in cockpit.
A jewel for me still, with assetto corsa.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Well, for me even on tarmac, the driving feels way ahead in dr2 vs wrc9, because of the lack of mass inertia/momentum, gravity and suspension feel in 9, you dont feel much like you're throwing a car around in comparison.

Plus the steering feel is more believable to me, maybe i need still to adjust the ffb in wrc9 but i did tinker with it.

Much more satisfying in dr2, especially with older cars, like the integrale.

Modern cars like the current wrc2 cars do feel better than old ones on tarmac maybe in wrc.

On dirt well cars slide enough in wrc that i can feel more throwing them and feeling handling.

Depends on many things i guess, platform, hardware, ffb settings, and how you play too maybe.
It feels believable, intuitive, dependable to push to the limit, lot of feel, on wet or dry, in germany at least, haven't tested so much in a while in spain.
All cars with their own feel too.
Plus the movement feel in cockpit.
A jewel for me still, with assetto corsa.

I have to agree. Dirt Rally 2 just has something about it physics/feel wise.ceven if it isn't 'technically'the best rally sim, it feels like it is. The cars behave how I think they should and how I imagine they should. It has always felt better than the WRC games to me.

 

[Jtheripper]

Have to admit though, the modern cars in wrc9 are pretty damn good too. I dont use them much, but i should in these games.
Was trying on germany bumpy tarmac stage, wrc 2, wrc, and porsche rgt, they feel more weighty, and challenging.
On smooth tarmac, they are so stable its not as exciting maybe.
I also up my ffb more.
Anyhow, older cars in dr2 and newer in wrc9 are best i guess.

 

[tbtstt]

A jewel for me still, with assetto corsa.

I debated about picking up Assetto Corsa Competizione for ages (as I had read some negative comments concerning playing the game with a controller), but I finally took the plunge and bought it. Settings needed some tweaking after I switched all the aids off, but I absolutely love it now, second only to DR2 as my favourite racing game on the PS4.

DR2 certainly isn't flawless, but I personally believe it is the best title CM have put out for a long time and the peak of the Dirt series for me. Such a shame that they lost Pikes Peak, as that would have been the icing on the cake!

 

[MrCrynox]

And absolutely shocking that in the, what 4 - 5 years ? that PD have had it they have done absolutely nothing with it, other than stealing it from DR2.

 

[tbtstt]

And absolutely shocking that in the, what 4 - 5 years ? that PD have had it they have done absolutely nothing with it, other than stealing it from DR2.

Yeah, I have struggled to see the logic in what PD have done there, other than deny gamers the opportunity to drive at a classic location.

 

[fokuzx2]

episode 8 of our GRF podcast out now :-)

 

[Darrenersmit]

Don't crash or its game over, I played on hardcore when I was on. Then gt7 came along. Joined the club, give it a whirl sunday

 

[SlimCharles]

I suspect others have brought this up already: such a shame to have the R5 in another class. It was a very competitive Group B car on tarmac.

 

[merseyxshore]

I suspect others have brought this up already: such a shame to have the R5 in another class. It was a very competitive Group B car on tarmac.

I read this like 15 times until I realised you mean the Renault 5 and not the R5 class haha

 

[SlimCharles]

Interesting. Maybe it's known as R5 only here in Spain.

 

[FrankieStail]

I suspect others have brought this up already: such a shame to have the R5 in another class. It was a very competitive Group B car on tarmac.

The R5 in the game is the earlier group 4 car, the group B one which came later, isn’t in the game.

Edit, I realise you may already know this, just thought I’d add for those that were unaware of the fact.

 

[merseyxshore]

The R5 in the game is the earlier group 4 car, the group B one which came later, isn’t in the game.

Edit, I realise you may already know this, just thought I’d add for those that were unaware of the fact.

Group 4 > Group B

 

[SlimCharles]

The R5 in the game is the earlier group 4 car, the group B one which came later, isn’t in the game.

Edit, I realise you may already know this, just thought I’d add for those that were unaware of the fact.

Nope, didn't know. Confused it with the Maxi turbo, the proper group B one.

The one that is in the game, was also "converted" to group B, as any other group 4 car. But under B11 regulation (B12 is the big one) and it is well placed in that category in the game. It was the best B11 car in the 1986 Tour de Corse, but way behind the B12 entries, specially Toivonen's.

 

[SlimCharles]

I've been obsessed with group B lately and there are some details I noticed in the game.

It represents really well some stuff: the anti lag system and PDK gearbox from the S1 E2, its stability on jumps thanks to aerodynamics, the absolute imposibility of driving the S4 sideways, the 205 jumping nose down...

But is it me or they absorb jumps too well? In real footage group b cars were atrocious in that regard. It's the main difference with modern machinery, that can get as high as 2-3 meters in the air and land with ease.

 

[tbtstt]

I've been obsessed with group B lately and there are some details I noticed in the game.

It represents really well some stuff: the anti lag system and PDK gearbox from the S1 E2, its stability on jumps thanks to aerodynamics, the absolute imposibility of driving the S4 sideways, the 205 jumping nose down...

But is it me or they absorb jumps too well? In real footage group b cars were atrocious in that regard. It's the main difference with modern machinery, that can get as high as 2-3 meters in the air and land with ease.

The 4WD Group B cars are a handful in the game but, in my personal opinion, are toned down from real life.

ALS isn't accurately modelled in the game and the Group B cars aren't as laggy as they should be. I like driving the E2, but it handles WAY too well: the real car understeered like a pig! As you have pointed out the suspension is too effective as well.

That is reflected in the potential stage times you can achieve in the Group B cars versus the other 4WD classes.

 

[SlimCharles]

That's right. The S1 E2 was a bit better, but there was no corner where they didn't use left foot braking with the Sport Quattro. I think it was Blomqvist who said it drove similar to a FWD car.

That technique is completely useless in the game. Dirt games have suffered this lack of understeer for ages.

That being said, DR2.0 is great overall. I hope they keep pushing in the right direction.

 

[tbtstt]

That's right. The S1 E2 was a bit better, but there was no corner where they didn't use left foot braking with the Sport Quattro. I think it was Blomqvist who said it drove similar to a FWD car.

The best bit about the E2 was the engine, the Sport Quattro was never going to work as long as the engine stayed out front. Think it was Rohrl who said the E2 engine in an A2 Quattro would have been the best combination.

Always hoped that someone would try and reproduce the short lived mid-engine S1.

It isn't perfect, but I think the DR2.0 is the best overall rally game to date. Easily the best representation of rallycross we have ever got as well.

 

[SlimCharles]

The best bit about the E2 was the engine, the Sport Quattro was never going to work as long as the engine stayed out front. Think it was Rohrl who said the E2 engine in an A2 Quattro would have been the best combination.

Always hoped that someone would try and reproduce the short lived mid-engine S1.

Not sure if Rohrl or Mikkola, but I definetly read some factory Audi driver didn't like the "shorty". The thing had a worse weight distribution (according to GroupBshrine) than the long wheel base one. With the E2 they went bananas trying to fix it:

Spoiler: Source: GroupBshrine

Like you said, it was never gonna work against mid engine prototypes like the Peugeot and Lancia. Engineers knew, but Audi executives didn't want to expend money on something that wouldn't have resemblance with their cars (that's why the 205 is pure genius: the best one and most similar to its road legal counterpart). That would lead to the amazing spy stuff that is the developing of the mid engine Quattro.

On the (very) bright side, this situation gave us the most iconic rally car ever made. Drivers had to drive it like maniacs, using all kinds of extremely difficult techniques at once (left foot braking, triple scandinavian flicks...) and engineers had to transform a tainted concept into a technological marvel: PDK, anti lag system, fierce aerodynamics... And that sound.

GOD GROUP B IS AWESOME.

 

[tbtstt]

Like you said, it was never gonna work against mid engine prototypes like the Peugeot and Lancia. Engineers knew, but Audi executives didn't want to expend money on something that wouldn't have resemblance with their cars (that's why the 205 is pure genius: the best one and most similar to its road legal counterpart). That would lead to the amazing spy stuff that is the developing of the mid engine Quattro.

I have always respected Audi for their stance with the rally program and trying to retain a connection with the whole Audi range. As you say the engineers clearly recognized early on how much this compromised them, but it took too long for the management to accept that fact.

Yeah, Peugeot struck a good balance by using the central tub of the 205, though by the time that they had chopped it up the connection to a mass produced 205 was pretty tenuous (though it did at least vaguely look like one from a distance!). Lancia took the silhouette racer idea to the absolute extreme with the Delta S4. Although the 205 was the statistical winner, I personally think the Delta S4 was the best Group B rally car in that it pushed every limit of the regulations and, even with a rushed development, it was the only car to consistently challenge the evolved 205 T16...

...if Group B had continued - or if Group S had been implemented - it would have been fascinating to see where things went. Audi had accepted they needed to go mid-engine and the Evolution version of the RS200 looked to address the shortcomings of the first iteration.

On the (very) bright side, this situation gave us the most iconic rally car ever made. Drivers had to drive it like maniacs, using all kinds of extremely difficult techniques at once (left foot braking, triple scandinavian flicks...) and engineers had to transform a tainted concept into a technological marvel: PDK, anti lag system, fierce aerodynamics... And that sound.

It has long amused me that the E2 is seen by many as "the" group B car and this huge icon of the sport, but it was by far the least successful iteration of the Quattro and, unlike its predecessor, was utterly outclassed by its rivals. Can't dispute that noise though, arguably the greatest sounding competition car of all time!

GOD GROUP B IS AWESOME.

From a technical and development standpoint it was an incredible time. Gave us some astonishing cars which, in their later life, went on to provide a golden era of rallycross as well.

Considering the overall picture though, I personally don't believe Group B was the best period for rally.

 

[SlimCharles]

It has long amused me that the E2 is seen by many as "the" group B car and this huge icon of the sport, but it was by far the least successful iteration of the Quattro and, unlike its predecessor, was utterly outclassed by its rivals. Can't dispute that noise though, arguably the greatest sounding competition car of all time!

IMO it deserves that place. It wasn't as competitive as the 205 E2 and S4, but a strong underdog. It was very entertaining to watch (205 wasn't as fierce and the S4 struggled sideways driving) and while the S4 was indeed the most extreme interpretation of the regulations and one of the most nightmare-ish looking racecars ever made, the S1 E2 didn't look like a puppy either. It was the first group B awd supercar before group B.

Considering the overall picture though, I personally don't believe Group B was the best period for rally.

That's also an incredibly magnetic topic of discussion, as a matter of fact, many well respected journalists of the sport, will say the same as you. I think it is not just the greatest period of rallying, but it even might be of all motorsport history.

They look stupid compared to 2017 WRC or Rally1 cars. Couldn't jump higher than half meter without crashing and let's not talk about hairpins. Modern wrc cars are way more spectacular besides sound and looks: it's like a combination of rally raid, gt3 and karting. Incredibly agile, high downforce, flying monsters.

Group B appealing is more nuanced, referred to what's happening behind what you see. Overpowered beasts taking legendary drivers way off their capabilities. Drama and political struggle. Total indifference for human safety (not good, just fascinating). Ludicrous technical applications: who the hell thought it was a good idea to use a ventury device in a racing car that's bouncing all the time.

PS: I know we are way off topic, but the discussion is getting to places that are way too interesting and rarely seen online.

 

[MrCrynox]

I can remember going out with my Dad in the early to mid eighties, standing in a cold dark wet layby on a miserable day on the A46 (by the M4 J18), and watching/listening in amazement as these cars like nothing I'd seen before drove by on a road section, all the colours, pops and bangs, whistling, flames etc. My Dad can't remember it, I was only 7-9 years old at the time. It stuck with me and then later getting into the WRC toward the end of the 90's when I moved out and got cable TV it all came flooding back.
I think DR1/2 does a wonderful job of portraying GrpB as we like to remember it.

I think the 2017-21 cars are the modern equivalent. Totally special and never to be seen again, just like GrpB