Do you believe in God?

[TankAss95]

Here's a game: Find the Pattern above.

Men create the gods after their own image, not only with regard to their form but with regard to their mode of life. (Aristotle)

The Bible has many names for God and throughout it refers to God being male. This is because God is written in a poetic language, or manner. It's the same with describing the human race as a whole: 'mankind' or just 'man'.

 

[Tic Tach]

The Bible has many names for God and throughout it refers to God being male. This is because God is written in a poetic language, or manner.

Or could it be that the men who wrote the lines were patriarchal?

"He" is no more poetic than "she". You're rationalizing.

 

[Hun200kmh]

There's no pattern, the only relevant thing is that he (TankAss95) forgot to capitalize the "H" a few times.The heretic!

About that text you quote as being from Aristotle, I'd say he was absolutely right about the gods he knew about, in fact you only need to read this to agree with him:

Zeus was the child of Cronus and Rhea, and the youngest of his siblings. In most traditions he was married to Hera, although, at the oracle of Dodona, his consort was Dione: according to the Iliad, he is the father of Aphrodite by Dione.[2] He is known for his erotic escapades. These resulted in many godly and heroic offspring, including Athena, Apollo and Artemis, Hermes, Persephone (by Demeter), Dionysus, Perseus, Heracles, Helen of Troy, Minos, and the Muses (by Mnemosyne); by Hera, he is usually said to have fathered Ares, Hebe and Hephaestus.[5]

 

[arora]

Well you could throw Matthew 22:30 into that convo as well I suppose Anyway...........

I've spent a fair amount of time reading Bertrand Russell over the past few weeks so I thought I'd share a few tid bits some of you may enjoy. While I don't agree with him I find his writings fascinating, I'll reserve long winded comment unless the quotes spark meaningful conversation. I know I know, where are the bible verses to shoot down? Where are the ridiculous fillers in the scientific gaps? None of that, just a basic premise of good, of spiritual, of faith, of hope, of morality, or of anything not pertaining to matter, conscience perhaps.... that effects our lives(more then some care to admit). All from an atheist. The first bit is a valid closing statement, the second is from my favorite work(the history of creation as told by mephistopheles is reason alone to read the essay), and the third is the begining of his outlined society from a book covering socialism, anarchism and syndicalism.

Why I Am Not A Christian(lecture 1927)

We want to stand upon our own feet and look fair and square at the world -- its good facts, its bad facts, its beauties, and its ugliness; see the world as it is and be not afraid of it. Conquer the world by intelligence and not merely by being slavishly subdued by the terror that comes from it. The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human beings. We ought to stand up and look the world frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be better than what these others have made of it in all these ages. A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create.

A Free Man's Worship(essay 1902)

How, in such an alien and inhuman world, can so powerless a creature as Man preserve his aspirations untarnished? A strange mystery it is that Nature, omnipotent but blind, in the revolutions of her secular hurryings through the abysses of space, has brought forth at last a child, subject still to her power, but gifted with sight, with knowledge of good and evil, with the capacity of judging all the works of his unthinking Mother. In spite of Death, the mark and seal of the parental control, Man is yet free, during his brief years, to examine, to criticise, to know, and in imagination to create. To him alone, in the world with which he is acquainted, this freedom belongs; and in this lies his superiority to the resistless forces that control his outward life.

[........]Such also is the attitude of those who, in our own day, base their morality upon the struggle for survival, maintaining that the survivors are necessarily the fittest. But others, not content with an answer so repugnant to the moral sense, will adopt the position which we have become accustomed to regard as specially religious, maintaining that, in some hidden manner, the world of fact is really harmonious with the world of ideals. Thus Man creates God, all-powerful and all-good, the mystic unity of what is and what should be.

[........]If strength indeed is to be respected, let us respect rather the strength of those who refuse that false "recognition of facts" which fails to recognise that facts are often bad. Let us admit that, in the world we know, there are many things that would be better otherwise, and that the ideals to which we do and must adhere are not realised in the realm of matter. Let us preserve our respect for truth, for beauty, for the ideal of perfection which life does not permit us to attain, though none of these things meet with the approval of the unconscious universe. If Power is bad, as it seems to be, let us reject it from our hearts. In this lies Man's true freedom: in determination to worship only the God created by our own love of the good, to respect only the heaven which inspires the insight of our best moments. In action, in desire, we must submit perpetually to the tyranny of outside forces; but in thought, in aspiration, we are free, free from our fellow-men, free from the petty planet on which our bodies impotently crawl, free even, while we live, from the tyranny of death. Let us learn, then, that energy of faith which enables us to live constantly in the vision of the good; and let us descend, in action, into the world of fact, with that vision always before us.

Proposed Roads to Freedom(1918)

A life lived in this spirit—the spirit that aims at creating rather than possessing—has a certain fundamental happiness, of which it cannot be wholly robbed by adverse circumstances. This is the way of life recommended in the Gospels, and by all the great teachers of the world. Those who have found it are freed from the tyranny of fear, since what they value most in their lives is not at the mercy of outside power. If all men could summon up the courage and the vision to live in this way in spite of obstacles and discouragement, there would be no need for the regeneration of the world to begin by political and economic reform: all that is needed in the way of reform would come automatically, without resistance, owing to the moral regeneration of individuals. But the teaching of Christ has been nominally accepted by the world for many centuries, and yet those who follow it are still persecuted as they were before the time of Constantine. Experience has proved that few are able to see through the apparent evils of an outcast's life to the inner joy that comes of faith and creative hope. If the domination of fear is to be overcome, it is not enough, as regards the mass of men, to preach courage and indifference to misfortune: it is necessary to remove the causes of fear, to make a good life no longer an unsuccessful one in a worldly sense, and to diminish the harm that can be inflicted upon those who are not wary in self- defense.

 

[TankAss95]

Or could it be that the men who wrote the lines were patriarchal?

"He" is no more poetic than "she". You're rationalizing.

No. God is described as being a personal God. Using the word 'it' would not describe the personality that God has throughout the Bible.

I am happy to continue discussing this particular matter, but could you comment about my previous post about my description if God and more importantly tell me if I am correct about the description of the theory of the big bang?

 

[arora]

I wrote something about that tank, post 4003 I believe.

 

[Tic Tach]

No. God is described as being a personal God. Using the word 'it' would not describe the personality that God has throughout the Bible.

I never mentioned the word "it". I asked you why the word "he" was conveniently used over "she".

....could you comment about my previous post and tell me if I am correct about the description of the theory of the big bang?

How the heck should I know? If you have genuine questions about the big bang, evolution etc, why don't you seek out those who work in those particular fields, instead of posing such questions on a gaming forum?

 

[homeforsummer]

No. The reason I brought up the question is because I highly doubt that our existence came into being from total destruction, without order from a higher power. If the big bang happened without order from a higher power then it would have given a totally chaotic universe, and in a chaotic universe any progress made towards us being in existence would constantly be disassembled or destroyed. Our universe is fascinating, because it is neither chaotic nor perfect. If it was perfect it would have been boring. If it was chaotic then any progress would have, as I have said above, been disassembled or destroyed. Infinite possibility may be true with infinite chance, but only in the right conditions.

That's my take on it.

It is a chaotic universe, but also an incredibly large one with events that take place on absolutely epic timescales. Everything looks perfect and stable from your little bubble but we're surrounded by stars that are constantly exploding in a huge manner and whizzing through the cosmos at many millions of miles per hour as part of the Milky Way.

The star that feeds all life on Earth (the one that's 150 million kilometers away and can still give you skin cancer if you're exposed to it too long) is in a constant - but slow - process of self destruction, consuming huge amounts of hydrogen to create energy - the only energy that stops it from imploding through gravitational force (and vice versa - gravity stops that huge amount of energy from just exploding outwards and being lost to space). As soon as that energy/gravity balance sways it'll become a red giant and swallow the innermost planets before burning its last fuel reserves away and becoming a white dwarf.

If you're feeling morbid, we could be killed at any second by a gamma ray burst from a nearby supernova, if we were unlucky.

Even if you stick to Earth itself, you have a planet that was created by constant bombardment in the early days of our solar system.

Our universe isn't chaotic? Give me a break. The chaos of our universe is a very good example of why you need to look beyond human timescales and physical scales. On a basic level it looks like very little is going on beyond the rotation of our planet around its axis and around the sun, but it's certainly not as serene as it looks to the casual observer.

If you'd like to ask questions about the cosmos fire away because there are plenty of us who'd be happy to answer them for you, but don't attempt to form an argument from things you don't understand.

 

[TankAss95]

It is a chaotic universe, but also an incredibly large one with events that take place on absolutely epic timescales. Everything looks perfect and stable from your little bubble but we're surrounded by stars that are constantly exploding in a huge manner and whizzing through the cosmos at many millions of miles per hour as part of the Milky Way.

The star that feeds all life on Earth (the one that's 150 million kilometers away and can still give you skin cancer if you're exposed to it too long) is in a constant - but slow - process of self destruction, consuming huge amounts of hydrogen to create energy - the only energy that stops it from imploding through gravitational force (and vice versa - gravity stops that huge amount of energy from just exploding outwards and being lost to space). As soon as that energy/gravity balance sways it'll become a red giant and swallow the innermost planets before burning its last fuel reserves away and becoming a white dwarf.

If you're feeling morbid, we could be killed at any second by a gamma ray burst from a nearby supernova, if we were unlucky.

Even if you stick to Earth itself, you have a planet that was created by constant bombardment in the early days of our solar system.

Our universe isn't chaotic? Give me a break. The chaos of our universe is a very good example of why you need to look beyond human timescales and physical scales. On a basic level it looks like very little is going on beyond the rotation of our planet around its axis and around the sun, but it's certainly not as serene as it looks to the casual observer.

If you'd like to ask questions about the cosmos fire away because there are plenty of us who'd be happy to answer them for you, but don't attempt to form an argument from things you don't understand.

It never was an argument it was a discussion. I was asking for conformation about energy and the big bang who knew such things about it. I find it puzzling why someone who encourages and supports the learning of science yet wishes not to explain such things to a religious person.

 

[Tic Tach]

Good post homeforsummer. And what TankAss should also appreciate is that even on this planet we call home, there are many parts of it where, if you were placed for a given amount of time, you would die, for it is inhospitable.

There's a reason why all of the people on all of the other billion billion planets aren't contemplating all of this; because they don't exist, and they don't exist because the conditions weren't conducive to biochemical life to form and evolve. We are contemplating all of the amazing awe of the universe and reality only because the conditions were favourable for life to cook up here, and it's been a long evolutionary journey, including 4 or 5 mass extinctions.

Revel in the mystery of it all, but please see that imaginary father figures (in whatever nuanced form) are merely a childish guess.

 

[TankAss95]

Good post homeforsummer. And what TankAss should also appreciate is that even on this planet we call home, there are many parts of it where, if you were placed for a given amount of time, you would die, for it is inhospitable.

There's a reason why all of the people on all of the other billion billion planets aren't contemplating all of this; because they don't exist, and they don't exist because the conditions weren't conducive to biochemical life to form and evolve. We are contemplating all of the amazing awe of the universe and reality only because the conditions were favourable for life to cook up here, and it's been a long evolutionary journey, including 4 or 5 mass extinctions.

Revel in the mystery of it all, but please see that imaginary father figures (in whatever nuanced form) are merely a childish guess.

It seems to me that the majority if people in this thread feel that Christianity is a hindrance to science. Why did human knowledge of the universe accelerate in Europe in the 1500-1600s instead of in China, which is not a Christian country?
Why is it that western civilisation and universities are built up from Christianity?

 

[Tic Tach]

It seems to me that the majority if people in this thread feel that Christianity is a hindrance to science. Why did human knowledge of the universe accelerate in Europe in the 1500-1600s instead of in China, which is not a Christian country?

Why is it that western civilisation and universities are built up from Christianity?

The same reason that the value of the pillars in the Vatican could solve world hunger. Power, control and money.



God has always resembled his creators. He hated and loved what they hated and loved and he was invariably found on the side of those in power. (Robert Ingersoll)

 

[El]

I think you're being a little unfair to state that without much to back it up. I exist, there's no reason for it, and I don't really care that there isn't a reason. I don't really have much to cling to, my world view is driven by evidence. And I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

Think you completely misunderstood here. I was just explaining why many religious people deny the truth, even if its obvious and that this behaviour is historically typically human, not something stricktly tied to a specific religion. Your worldview and that many others feel that way is both true and pleasing, though not really relevant to what I was trying to say.

It seems to me that the majority if people in this thread feel that Christianity is a hindrance to science. Why did human knowledge of the universe accelerate in Europe in the 1500-1600s instead of in China, which is not a Christian country?
Why is it that western civilisation and universities are built up from Christianity?

Why is it that we knew more about the world and the universe in the year 400 BC then in the year 1400? Hmmm...Something must have happened..

 

[nitrorocks]

I'm just tired of getting made fun of at school for being Christian. I never did anything wrong at all. I never tried to change them, because that pisses them off more. Yesterday I had enough and snapped. The kid said he was satanic and the other one said things I can't say on here. I'm just tired of why i get persecuted for no reason.

 

[Tic Tach]

I'm just tired of getting made fun of at school for being Christian. I never did anything wrong at all. I never tried to change them, because that pisses them off more. Yesterday I had enough and snapped. The kid said he was satanic and the other one said things I can't say on here. I'm just tired of why i get persecuted for no reason.

Kids can be cruel, due to their immaturity, but please appreciate that being an atheist in the US can be a horrific experience. Those who claim a "moral highground" can be the most cruel.

Watch.

 

[nitrorocks]

I don't like it when people say that they are satanic. It's like they are possessed.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I don't like it when people say that they are satanic. It's like they are possessed.

They're just screwing with you.

 

[homeforsummer]

It never was an argument it was a discussion.

Arguement doesn't always mean two people at each others' throats.

"Argument: A reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong"

So yes, your post was an argument.

I was asking for conformation about energy and the big bang who knew such things about it.

It was nothing of the sort. You said:

If the big bang happened without order from a higher power then it would have given a totally chaotic universe, and in a chaotic universe any progress made towards us being in existence would constantly be disassembled or destroyed. Our universe is fascinating, because it is neither chaotic nor perfect. If it was perfect it would have been boring. If it was chaotic then any progress would have, as I have said above, been disassembled or destroyed.

That's a statement. A hypothesis at best. If you'd been wanting confirmation on how something worked, you would have asked for it, rather than making all that up.

I find it puzzling why someone who encourages and supports the learning of science yet wishes not to explain such things to a religious person.

Please read my posts in their entirety:

If you'd like to ask questions about the cosmos fire away because there are plenty of us who'd be happy to answer them for you, but don't attempt to form an argument from things you don't understand.

I'm happy to answer questions if you ask them. Since you didn't ask a question and made a statement based on pure conjecture and misinformation, I replied as I saw fit.

 

[Azuremen]

It seems to me that the majority if people in this thread feel that Christianity is a hindrance to science. Why did human knowledge of the universe accelerate in Europe in the 1500-1600s instead of in China, which is not a Christian country?
Why is it that western civilisation and universities are built up from Christianity?

First question - Because the Muslims preserved libraries in what is now Spain, and when the Catholics pushed them out, the translated works of the Greeks and so on were suddenly found again.

The Church itself, at that time, didn't want science to progress because it would hinder their political control on the region, thus the various break aways with the Protestant movements. You can also look at the treatment of Galileo, which was almost entirely political.

China began to stagnant due to strong isolationist policies and their governments.

If you want to see an interesting book on it, read Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. It would answer a lot of questions in these matters.

As for centers of education being religious, that isn't entirely the case, but Churches tend to have a lot of money and do want to have a literate and educated class to preach and practice their faiths. Also, if you want to look at education and technology out side of Europe, the Mughal Empire is an interesting bit.

I don't like it when people say that they are satanic. It's like they are possessed.

Get a sense of humor. Everyone gets made fun of for some reason or another.

 

[TankAss95]

I'm just tired of getting made fun of at school for being Christian. I never did anything wrong at all. I never tried to change them, because that pisses them off more. Yesterday I had enough and snapped. The kid said he was satanic and the other one said things I can't say on here. I'm just tired of why i get persecuted for no reason.

This used to happen to me.

Kids can be cruel, due to their immaturity, but please appreciate that being an atheist in the US can be a horrific experience. Those who claim a "moral highground" can be the most cruel.

Watch.

That makes me feel really sad, yet angry at the same time. How can people call themselves Christians when they posses so much hate in the first place?
So I've watched the whole video. It's quite strange because of the contrast between the US and UK. In the UK hardly no people in my class had open religious beliefs (about 3 in a class of 30). I remember when I was really young though, everyone had to say grace before lunch. There was a young boy who was a Jehovah's witness, and had to just go in to the lunch hall after prayer. It sounds really weird but nobody really cared or took notice too this. He was just treated like everyone else.
For some reason though I got picked on even when I kept my beliefs to myself. When I was a little bit older we all got Gideons Bibles presented to us. All the boys in the class ripped theirs up and I kept mine. Some of them actually tried to grab the Bible from me and destroy it. I've still got it now.

 

[DK]

I went to a Catholic primary school, and just like TankAss I had to say prayers before lunch. I just mouthed along to it to be honest. If you didn't pray before lunch, there was one teacher (who my classmates and I thought was at least 100 years old) who made a show of you.

 

[Famine]

Jared Diamond

Not just Guns, Germs and Steel - read all of his books. Why Is Sex Fun? is a good one.

 

[nitrorocks]

They're just screwing with you.

I know that. It just posses me off. Nit something you should pretend to be.

 

[Tic Tach]

It's quite strange because of the contrast between the US and UK.

Ya, the US (or most areas of it) are quite strange in their religiosity. It has woven its way into their culture (and politics) to the point where it's part of bein' an true American!

 

[Azuremen]

Not just Guns, Germs and Steel - read all of his books. Why Is Sex Fun? is a good one.

I had the pleasure of listening to Diamond speak in person. Guy is quite amusing, and actually makes sense for the most part.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Ya, the US (or most areas of it) are quite strange in their religiosity. It has woven its way into their culture (and politics) to the point where it's part of bein' an true American!

Guess I'm not a true American.

 

[Azuremen]

Ya, the US (or most areas of it) are quite strange in their religiosity. It has woven its way into their culture (and politics) to the point where it's part of bein' an true American!

Where exactly are you in the US? Go out West far enough and you'll find a lot of people that are just "meh, god? whateva, please pass the bong now, man, this god stuff is too heavy."

 

[TankAss95]

The best data we have (concerning the Big Bang) are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, and the Bible as a whole.

Arno A. Penzias, Nobel Laureate

 

[Tic Tach]

Where exactly are you in the US? Go out West far enough and you'll find a lot of people that are just "meh, god? whateva, please pass the bong now, man, this god stuff is too heavy."

Correct. Which is why I said "or most areas of it". Even in California though, there's plenty of mega-churches and fundamentalists.

 

[Akira AC]

The best data we have (concerning the Big Bang) are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, and the Bible as a whole.

Arno A. Penzias, Nobel Laureate

I wonder if such thing also applies to the book of genesis and the origin of men.

I'm not a Nobel prize, but I'm pretty sure that there is a conflict between God referred as a omnipotent being and now god referred as a force.

Is quite interesting to see how religion manages to still give reasons and basis to its hypotheses when nearly all of them has been shoot down by the intellectual evolution of mankind, I'm pretty sure that mankind will look back at the current Christian believes and will see how it managed to justify all the stuff that was claimed to god (just like we do now with the knowledge about the sun and how our ancestors attributed such thing to god or identify it as such).