Do you believe in God?

[nitrorocks]

The bible is 100% proof that god created the universe

 

[dylansan]

Not sure if you are aware of the specificity of this statement.

I am aware. In an infinite sampling size of universes, even the most unlikely event is 100% likely to happen an infinite amount of times. That includes us.

The bible is 100% proof that god created the universe

Harry Potter is 100% proof that wizards exist.

 

[niky]

Which Bible? The original Torah, the expanded Bible with the writings of the apostles? The purged Bible with the gnostic books removed? The Qu'Ran? You need to be specific.

Not sure if you are aware of the specificity of this statement.

Truth is truth. We are 100% likely to be having this conversation, however the Universe came about or however many Universes have had to come into being for us to have come about.

Like I've said previously, in an infinite multiverse, the probability of anything happening is 1.

 

[Sach]

Which Bible? The original Torah, the expanded Bible with the writings of the apostles? The purged Bible with the gnostic books removed? The Qu'Ran? You need to be specific.



Truth is truth. We are 100% likely to be having this conversation, however the Universe came about or however many Universes have had to come into being for us to have come about.

Like I've said previously, in an infinite multiverse, the probability of anything happening is 1.

I find it arrogant that people claim to know factually that all possible universes have existed until this point.

And I'm referring to the Christian bible, containing the Old and New Testaments. The fact that you point out others exist in different faiths proves nothing.

 

[TankAss95]

We live in a stable universe because if it wasn't stable we wouldn't live in it. Think of planet Venus for example. It is not an environment we can survive in, or any other life forms we currently know of. Someone in a universe that harsh would have no reason to think it was perfect, but then they also wouldn't exist.
The odds of us existing in a particular universe are incredibly small, but if all possible universes exist, it's still 100% likely that we will exist.

Yep, that all changes when you consider that there may be reason behind it all though.
And you are assuming that with infinite possibility there is infinite chance. That could be considered guesswork could it not? I don't know too much about this whole multiverse thing, parallel universes etc are a little too complex for me right now.

Interesting analogy, but there's no evidence that a universe more supportive of life would necessarily be worse or more boring than our own. As well, just because our universe is between total chaos and total order does not mean it is at the perfect balance of the two, it just means it's somewhere between. You need to come up with an exact definition of perfect before you start examining qualities of our universe, because it is a really subjective thing and there are many things most people would agree are not perfect about it.

Yeah, I suppose you are right. The thing is that a man can't know perfection unless he has saw perfection, thus perfection can never be found.

 

[dylansan]

Yep, that all changes when you consider that there may be reason behind it all though.
And you are assuming that with infinite possibility there is infinite chance. That could be considered guesswork could it not? I don't know too much about this whole multiverse thing, parallel universes etc are a little too complex for me right now.

Say the odds of us existing are 1 in 10. Now out of an infinite amount of universes, in how many would we exist? Well, what's one tenth of infinity? What's one thousandth of infinity? One millionth? One gajillionth? Infinity divided by any number, no matter how high, is infinity.

Yeah, I suppose you are right. The thing is that a man can't know perfection unless he has saw perfection, thus perfection can never be found.

Then you can't argue (with others or with yourself) whether anything is perfect or not. You can't think the universe is perfect without any reference to what perfection even means.

 

[Sach]

You can't think the universe is perfect without any reference to what perfection even means.

Christians understand Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice. Perfect is without sin. The bible actually states that all of creation is in fact corrupted due to sin.

 

[TankAss95]

Say the odds of us existing are 1 in 10. Now out of an infinite amount of universes, in how many would we exist? Well, what's one tenth of infinity? What's one thousandth of infinity? One millionth? One gajillionth? Infinity divided by any number, no matter how high, is infinity.
Then you can't argue (with others or with yourself) whether anything is perfect or not. You can't think the universe is perfect without any reference to what perfection even means.

If the multiverse is true then that is a perfectly valid fact. We don't really know though. Time will (hopefully) tell.

 

[TankAss95]

Christians understand Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice. Perfect is without sin. The bible actually states that all of creation is in fact corrupted due to sin.

God is perfection, but we can not understand him. God is infinite, and infinity is perfection. The thing is though that God is not material so it was not relevant to our conversation.

EDIT: Apologies for double post.

 

[Sach]

Yes, but Jesus was an example of perfection. I'm just saying that to claim we have no reference point for perfection is untrue.

 

[dylansan]

First you have to prove that Jesus actually existed and was the son of God.

You're starting to get into a circular argument here. You can't claim God exists because the universe is perfect because Jesus existed because God said so in the Bible. You can't use God to define a standard of perfection to prove that God exists.

 

[niky]

I find it arrogant that people claim to know factually that all possible universes have existed until this point.

We don't. Multiverses are a theory, and a controversial one at that (amongst scientists) as what lies outside our Universe is unobservable, untestable and thus unprovable (unlike, say, the Brane theory, which is being tested right now...). But we know that this one, singular Universe does. Thus, the odds of us existing, whatever lies outside, is still 1.

And I find it arrogant that people claim to know factually that God exists. With the exact same amount of evidence.

And I'm referring to the Christian bible, containing the Old and New Testaments. The fact that you point out others exist in different faiths proves nothing.

That was directed at nitrorocks.

But... the fact that other holy books exist, and that the Christian Bible is based on the Torah for the most part, actually means something. It means that the Christian viewpoint isn't unique or singular.

It isn't even singular, actually. Are you Roman Catholic? Baptist? Lutheran? Other?

What it boils down to is that the Christian faith is founded on the teachings of a single Jewish prophet as taught to the Jewish people of the time. That non-Jews now hold that faith and that it's one of the biggest in the world is more to the fact that he taught that Jews should hold out their arms and embrace non-Jews, and that salvation is open to all. In the end, it went from being a Jewish religion to a Roman one, and the Christianity that survives to this day is basically a borrowed religion of the Romans (Italians).

Religions that spread are those that don't limit themselves to particular ethnic groups. Religions such as Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are such.

 

[Sach]

First you have to prove that Jesus actually existed and was the son of God.

It is historically proven that he existed.

You're starting to get into a circular argument here. You can't claim God exists because the universe is perfect because Jesus existed because God said so in the Bible. You can't use God to define a standard of perfection to prove that God exists.

Eh, you just put a whole lot of words into my mouth. I gave you an example of perfection when you said there was no reference.


If you can't prove the bible to be an untrue source, then you have no grounds by which to dismiss anyone who considers it a truthful one.

 

[dylansan]

No, but if you can't prove it is a true source, you can't use it in an argument for the existence of God. I realize you were just responding to one particular point about perfection, but TankAss is making a larger argument about God and I just wanted to clarify that your point had no relevance in that particular discussion.

 

[niky]

It is historically proven that he existed.

There is historical record of Jesus the Man. There is no historical proof for Jesus the God.

 

[TankAss95]

TankAss is making a larger argument about God

Glad I'm getting somewhere.

 

[Sach]

There is historical record of Jesus the Man. There is no historical proof for Jesus the God.

Nonsense. Millions of testimonies and experiences say otherwise, many of which are recorded and collectted in all forms of historical documents, not just religious ones.

 

[dylansan]

Same for all other religions, but they aren't all right. Not to mention there's testimonies claiming homeopathy, horoscopes, psychics and mediums, etc. all work, but I really hope you don't believe every religion and all of those things. So why accept testimonies and experiences as proof? They aren't, and hold no value in an argument. Here's a more comprehensive explanation of why:
edit: wait, I'll find a better one

 

[Sach]

So why accept testimonies and experiences as proof? They aren't, and hold no value in an argument.

Why aren't they? Testimonies are valid in a court of law, where countless arguments take place to determine the truth of any number of legal matters.

 

[dylansan]

Testimony is not enough on its own to convict a person of a serious crime. There needs to be evidence so people can't gang up on someone and get them in trouble for something they didn't do. Testimony can help work out details but only if it's established that the event actually happened, which can be determined with evidence such as fingerprints, surveillance footage, etc.

 

[Sach]

What makes you think you are right in assuming there is not also supporting evidence?

 

[dylansan]

Because until someone actually brings it up, I have no reason to think there is any.

I mean, there could be evidnece of the existence of unicorns, but I'm sure you assume there probably isn't.

Edit: TankAss, I found a video addressing pretty well the questions you had about the universe being fine tuned for life. I think the most important thing to get out of it is that life adapted to the universe, rather than the other way around. If the physics and materials were different, even if life as we know it couldn't have existed, it's probable that some other type of life more suited to those conditions would have.

 

[Sach]

So you dodged the question, as if millions of people haven't brought it up. How much time have you spent pondering your own involvement in your signature's quotes?

 

[dylansan]

Really? Well then what is it? What is the evidence that Jesus was the son of God? This is information that could potentially change my life, so I'd like to know.

 

[Sach]

Really? Well then what is it? What is the evidence that Jesus was the son of God? This is information that could potentially change my life, so I'd like to know.

There is plenty. I would start with all of the prophecies in the Old Testament that foretold of His coming that did in fact come to pass.

There are also many historical evidences that the events in the Old Testament such as flooding, plagues, etc. also did in fact come to pass.

As I mentioned, literally millions of testimonies of experiences with Christ, and above all, changed lives. A repeatable, and testable (scientific) experiment, that has countless times involved individuals that thought they "knew better" than to believe in such things.

The truth that the disciples who successfully started the largest church the world has ever seen did so only after His reappearance, becoming radically defiant to the Roman empire (among others), dying horrific deaths by their own choice when all they would have had to have done was to stop preaching, and who were suddenly transformed into powerful and charismatic religious leaders, when they resembled nothing of the sort previously.


There are many more. But ultimately, you asked a question concerning the existence of God. I can't answer that for you. "If people will not even believe in what is seen, they will be even less likely to believe in what is unseen".


The most important thing you can do is to reflect inwardly with a view that is actually truthful and examine the things you take a stand against that are actually just as much a part of yourself.



With that, I leave this never-ending debate. The fact is that the majority of people who dismiss Christianity as untrue almost never make an effort to experience whether it is truthful or not.


1 Cor. 8:2 - "Any man that thinks he knows does not yet know as he should."


I would start there.

 

[nitrorocks]

Which Bible? The original Torah, the expanded Bible with the writings of the apostles? The purged Bible with the gnostic books removed? The Qu'Ran? You need to be specific.

Truth is truth. We are 100% likely to be having this conversation, however the Universe came about or however many Universes have had to come into being for us to have come about.

Like I've said previously, in an infinite multiverse, the probability of anything happening is 1.

The Catholic/Christian bibles! The old testament, new testament, NIV, I can go on for hours naming the countless versions there are and they all lead to the same place

 

[nitrorocks]

There is historical record of Jesus the Man. There is no historical proof for Jesus the God.

Why don't you go to Bethlehem and Israel?

 

[dylansan]

There is plenty. I would start with all of the prophecies in the Old Testament that foretold of His coming that did in fact come to pass.

There are also many historical evidences that the events in the Old Testament such as flooding, plagues, etc. also did in fact come to pass.

Or so the Bible claims. The only evidence that these prophecies actually happened is the Bible itself, which isn't really evidence at all. As far as I am aware none of them have been scientifically confirmed, unless you want to link me to a published scientific article that says otherwise. But even whether Jesus actually existed has been debated for quite some time and there's still no clear evidence of any great flood. And even if the Bible was correct on any predictions or prophecies, there's hundreds of contradictions in the Bible which are quite hard to ignore. If it was the word of God, it's hard to imagine why there would be any contradictions at all, let alone so many.

As I mentioned, literally millions of testimonies of experiences with Christ, and above all, changed lives. A repeatable, and testable (scientific) experiment, that has countless times involved individuals that thought they "knew better" than to believe in such things.

What exactly is the experiment here? That people when introduced to Christianity live better or happier lives? Or something else? It's pretty easy to explain these "experiences" as well, without the supernatural. Confirmation bias. People subconsciously associate events they cannot explain with the supernatural, even if they have natural explanations. It's the same reason some people are so convinced their house is haunted. It doesn't matter how many people believe they have had an experience with God, there's no reason to believe they didn't all have natural explanations, just as any other allegedly supernatural event.

The problem is that, because it's testimony and not an actual recording of the event, it's impossible to test whether they had a natural cause or not, not to mention that people often unintentionally misremember details, creating testimonies that may seem convincing but actually never happened in quite that way. I find this stuff really interesting and I'm trying to look into it more.

The truth that the disciples who successfully started the largest church the world has ever seen did so only after His reappearance, becoming radically defiant to the Roman empire (among others), dying horrific deaths by their own choice when all they would have had to have done was to stop preaching, and who were suddenly transformed into powerful and charismatic religious leaders, when they resembled nothing of the sort previously.

There are many more. But ultimately, you asked a question concerning the existence of God. I can't answer that for you. "If people will not even believe in what is seen, they will be even less likely to believe in what is unseen".

I believe in what is observable, testable, and apparent in the world, and not in what is unobservable, untestable, or asserted without evidence. It's not that people are less likely to believe what is unseen, it's that there's no reason to in the first place. The unobservable is not just slightly less believable than the observable; it's completely unfounded to believe in the unseen and expected to believe in the visible. They're not two close levels on a scale, they're the two opposite ends on a scale.

The most important thing you can do is to reflect inwardly with a view that is actually truthful and examine the things you take a stand against that are actually just as much a part of yourself.

Reflect inwardly. What exactly does this mean? If it means "think deeply," I have done that over and over in order to better understand the universe. If it means something else, you're going to have to clarify because it's not something that has innate meaning to me. I have feelings, and I connect with them often, but they do not influence my beliefs because I know reality cannot be tested through feelings. I am an emotional person, but never have my emotions led me to feel like I required something more of this universe than what I can observe in reality.

I also don't understand what you mean about things I take a stand against. I base my morality on logic and I try to give everything the benefit of the doubt before feeling the need to go against anything or anyone. If there is something about my morality which you think makes me more likely to connect with some sort of God, please clarify.

With that, I leave this never-ending debate. The fact is that the majority of people who dismiss Christianity as untrue almost never make an effort to experience whether it is truthful or not.

Unfortunately the only way I can imagine trying to experience

1 Cor. 8:2 - "Any man that thinks he knows does not yet know as he should."

Words which truly represent the entire point of science, and the reason why I so distrust religion. Of a scientist who is constantly making new discoveries, revising hypotheses and changing their view of the world, and a Christian who believes (and would claim "knows")the Bible is and always was and will be the word of God, no matter what science has to say about it, who is doing this quote more justice?

I would start there.

I have been there for quite some time.

 

[Exorcet]

I believe in a monotheistic God, rather than multiple Gods (like dualism or polytheism). I believe both Ideas are man made.
I would provide my own explanation to why dualism is wrong, but C. S. Lewis hits the nail on the head:
"Neither of them chose this tête-à-tête. Each of them is therefore conditioned - finds himself willy-nilly in a situation, and either that situation itself, or some other unknown force which produced that situation, is the real Ultimate."
Basically you have to ask if there is some kind of unity between these two competing forces, and if so, does this not destroy their godlike status and reduce them to secondary players operating within a greater reality?

Why is it that a perfect God could not avert having his own creations corrupt themselves and bring suffering on themselves without removing their free will?

He makes anything possible correct? God himself is at the mercy of reality. He was not able to create beings perfect enough to avoid sin. He is also powerless to protect people from hell if they sin too much apparently. Nor is he convincing enough to even make 100% of people see his clear existence.

 

[nitrorocks]

It will all settle out in the end