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- TankAss95
FamineOh, here we go again![]()
Okay. You are saying that absolute truth can be found through science. Yes? If that is true, then I am seriously not understanding something here.
FamineOh, here we go again![]()
Okay. You are saying that absolute truth can be found through science. Yes? If that is true, then I am seriously not understanding something here.
That's suprising. I didn't expect 50% of people to openly admit to themselve not believing in God (me being one of them). Take a look at this clip from the O'Reilly Factor. This was so funny, especially because Bill O'Reilly thinks that there is no explanation for tides other than God. He completely got obliterated by David Silverman (an athiest) in this debate.
If you were wondering, tides occur because the gravitational pull of the moon. http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geophysics/tide-cause.htm
It's not just a few though."Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.
Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?
Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although 'they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.'" (Augustine, The Literal Meaning of Genesis, vol. 1, ch.19.)
It's not just a few though.
It's pretty well summed up by Bill O'Reilly in that video, while Christians are quick to jump and shout the second they hear the words "I don't know", they're willing to say "I don't know" quite commonly, yet somehow when they say it it doesn't prove anything, but of course when someone else doesn't have an answer for every little thing, they take it as "proof" they're right, because if someone doesn't have every answer, they must be wrong.
There's not a Christian in the world that doesn't hold a double standard in that regard. To be a Christian, one must accept there are things they do not know nor understand, yet they won't believe anything else that asks them to accept that they may not understand everything.
About the universe having meaning:
"Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the right conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying, one might say 'supernatural', plan." -Arno Penzias
"I cannot believe that our existence in this universe is a mere quirk of fate, an accident of history, an incidental blip in the great cosmic drama. Our involvement is too intimate... We are truly meant to be here." -Paul Davies
The atheist view of the ultimate reality is the universe, and for the theist the ultimate reality is God. With the quotes I have provided above, where does this leave us?
CSLACRIt's not just a few though.
It's pretty well summed up by Bill O'Reilly in that video, while Christians are quick to jump and shout the second they hear the words "I don't know", they're willing to say "I don't know" quite commonly, yet somehow when they say it it doesn't prove anything, but of course when someone else doesn't have an answer for every little thing, they take it as "proof" they're right, because if someone doesn't have every answer, they must be wrong.
There's not a Christian in the world that doesn't hold a double standard in that regard. To be a Christian, one must accept there are things they do not know nor understand, yet they won't believe anything else that asks them to accept that they may not understand everything.
To go further into your quote, you have to find a group of Christians that actually believe all the same things. That's hard to do when the views and beliefs have to change almost daily to keep from looking foolish. Evolution isn't considered a slight possibility by many Christians, because they believe it contradicts the Bible, yet then others claim evolution is simply God's system. Apparently some Christians think God causes the tide to happen, and know nothing of the moon's gravitational pull. Some believe God is, and I quote, "up above", but can never explain where exactly up above.
We've gone up above, and God's not there. Where is he? Christians don't accept alternate universes or additional dimensions, yet when forced with the obvious contradiction, suddenly the possibilities start to look very good, because it's pretty clear Christians were wrong when they said God lived in the sky. Wrong that he's "up above" at all in fact.
So it's easy to dump on Bill O'Reilly right now, but you already have or will run into the same problem, where you're clearly mistaken about something related to God and his existence, but much like him, you'll come up with a possibility, or say "I don't know" and consider it acceptable, but still not be willing to accept when someone else doesn't know something. Then it's just "proof" they're wrong.
To us, God is the ultimate reality. I also recommend you study the properties of God before you discuss him in such way, your view is highly distorted.
huskeR32What are those properties exactly? You've said yourself that god can't be measured by any possible methods. So please enlighten us ill-informed souls as to the correct properties of god.
EDIT: I'd also love to hear how you determined these properties.
I hope I don't seem to come across as one who believes he is superior in any way to non-believers. I don't want to be recognised in such way, as it is not what I believe and certainly is not the style in which I want my argument to be presented as.
God has many properties which is presented in the Bible. Discussing these individual properties is very time consuming, but you can highlight any concerns if you so wish, and I'll attempt to provide explanation.
...
DennischGod is between your ears.
Very bold statement to make.
Name one thing you believe in without any proof that's not religion related.Pretty bold statement. Coincidentally, it's utter hogwash.
Wrong. That's based on the assumption that a specific balance is needed to sustain life.About the universe having meaning:
"Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the right conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying, one might say 'supernatural', plan." -Arno Penzias
Exact same misconception, based on the belief that everything is lined up for us, rather then us evolving for the earth."I cannot believe that our existence in this universe is a mere quirk of fate, an accident of history, an incidental blip in the great cosmic drama. Our involvement is too intimate... We are truly meant to be here." -Paul Davies
You believe red carpet was rolled out for you, despite the evidence in front of you. Your entire belief is based on everything being set up for humans to exist on earth, and even though there's quite a bit of evidence that suggest that's nowhere close to true, you'd have to re-think everything you "know" about our existence to ever accept that.The atheist view of the ultimate reality is the universe, and for the theist the ultimate reality is God. With the quotes I have provided above, where does this leave us?
DennischJust as bold as these :
God is unique
God is personal
God is plural (Trinity)
God is spiritual
God is eternally self-existent
God is transcendent
God is immanent
God is omniscient
God is immutable
God is holy
God is loving
God is creator
God is ruler
God is judge
..
Wrong again, based on more assumption.Well, first of all, because we can sense a difference between right and wrong (morality), points towards an absolute law giver.
yaywalterHey TankAss...
Let's suppose for a second that there are God(s), a pretty big supposition might I add. So there are God(s)... what makes you so sure that your religion's God(s) are the real God(s)? What if there are God(s) but all of mankind's religions describing them and what they want from us are all a bunch of bull****?
What about a 21 year old dating a 7 year old?Wrong again, based on more assumption.
We get our "sense" of what's right and wrong the same way we get our "sense" of what the alphabet is. We're told.
I don't think it's wrong for a 21 year old to date a 17 year old, others (including the law) disagree. God can't really be handing out that determination then can he?
God has many properties which is presented in the Bible. Discussing these individual properties is very time consuming, but you can highlight any concerns if you so wish, and I'll attempt to provide explanation.
And this is how you can tell "God" was created by people, people with agendas no different then any others on earth.Are we going by the Bible?
God is vengeful.
God is petty. (pillar of salt... come on... just for looking? And yet the unjust and unbelievers can get away with anything later on...)
God is racist. ("chosen" people... grants permission to his people to usurp lands from others)
Yet... God accepts all races to his fold. (Christian times)
God sometimes allows his people to suffer when they are faithful, but sometimes allows them to prosper when they are not.
^all of the above = God is inconsistent.
God kills innocent babies (firstborn of every house of Egypt).
God plays jokes on his chosen ones: (No, really, you don't have to kill your son for me... gotcha!)
Shall we go on?
So suddenly that's instilled by God, because you used an extreme example?What about a 21 year old dating a 7 year old?
So suddenly that's instilled by God, because you used an extreme example?
Still waiting to hear why you hold men to higher standards the God.![]()
CSLACRWrong again, based on more assumption.
We get our "sense" of what's right and wrong the same way we get our "sense" of what the alphabet is. We're told.
I don't think it's wrong for a 21 year old to date a 17 year old, others (including the law) disagree. God can't really be handing out that determination then can he?
Ok, but people call it rape , if we can't agree what constitutes rape, what can we agree on with these "God given morals instilled in us all from birth"?I asked since you probably only disagree where to draw the line. No doubt 21 vs 7 is an extreme example. The law simply pick the age 18 as the age of accountability (time to graduate from high school) even though we know in reality some mature quicker than others.
So if I kill your family, or simply know it will happen and intentionally decide to not stop it, so long as you meet a new woman and make more children, all is well, right?As far as Job again the only thing God did was to put a hedge around Job and his family. If that was the end of the story then you might have a point yet even Job spoke during his trials he would meet God face to face. God rewarded Job with twice as much including children than before.
This is like condemning a man for cutting on a child without knowing the end results ... that is a doctor saving a child's life.
Again, you're still assuming everything is instilled by a God. Of course you think it'd be different without one, because you think the only reason things are the way they are is because of a God.There is such a thing as absolute right and absolute wrong. Two people may argue over what punishment a criminal may be given, but they do so in believing there is such a thing as an absolute right. Imagine we have both never been to Greenland. We may argue over topics such as the climate, or civilisation on the land of such country, but we do so believing that it is actually there.
It would surprise you how similar the sense of right and wrong is between different cultures. Just say I stole your chocolate bar without your permission. You would naturally say that such a thing is wrong, or against being nice. I, myself would deep down know what I have done was wrong, but I may begin to try and justify my actions. I may say things like, "you owed me", or "you never share". Although we are arguing, we both have the same sense that there is such a thing as absolute morality, only that I have done wrong, and you are innocent.
Wether it was taught or not, this sense of absolute morality is given. How can we argue with what is wrong or not, if we do not trust that there is an absolute law? A man might say, "Why does God let bad things happen?" but in doing so he is supporting the fact that there is in fact an absolute law giver.
In conclusion, the very fact that we can argue with what is right or wrong is pointing towards an absolute law giver.
Can an atheist tell me what a purely atheistic state would base their law upon, after not accepting that there is such a thing as God?
Noob616Human rights. Those being life, liberty, property. You know, the same stuff the US constitution is based on.
There are two world views (to my knowledge) that explain the existence of everything. The materialistic view, in which the universe somehow created itself through natural processes that just seemed to be there, and we are here just by probability or chance. The other view is a religious view, in which there is a mind behind it.
I am not going to attack the materialistic view just yet. Just imagine there is a mind behind it all. If science was perfect, and knew everything of the universe by observation, it would still not answer the question as to whether there is a mind behind it all. That mind could communicate through is by giving us the sense of what is right and wrong.
TankAss95It would surprise you how similar the sense of right and wrong is between different cultures
Assuming you were answering my question, where do you base our individual rights on?