Do you believe in God?

[Scaff]

That is just great for you that you have come to the conclusion rape is wrong and I'm sure you view other acts in such a way but that does nothing when discussing morality in a larger scale.

And you still have yet to explain to us your position on the subject despite being clearly asked three times by two members.

The bible specifically details the conditions under which rape, capital punishment and slavery are all acceptable, do you hold with those moral views?

I find it rather odd that you are repeatedly asking the same questions of others (even after they have clearly answered), yet are ignoring questions that have been asked of you.

I wonder why that is?

Now please answer the question.

One could have come to a logical conclusion by reasoning that rape would be pleasurable for himself and beneficiary to passing on his genetic line. What you are left with is a sad state where you can't say it is wrong only that you disagree.

The fact is that we can't even discuss this equally with you, as you have refused to explain your moral position on this subject.

As such the sad state is that we can only conclude that you believe rape is acceptable under certain conditions because an iron age book says so.

Who decides whats wrong? Only can say it is wrong from your perspective.

Apparently an iron age book.

A great example of your inability to live out your atheism.

No its not, its a logical fallacy and a position you have assigned to someone else based on a twisted interpretation of a statement they made. You've been asked not to do this before, don't keep repeating this kind of behavior.

What is rather un-surprising is that you have repeatedly done this (because people do actually answer the questions you have raised), yet you are doing pretty much all you can to avoid a straightforward question you have been asked.

What you will notice is the utter lack of surprise on behalf of most members here, as this is a pattern we have seen many times over.

 

[TheDrummingKING]

What about previous moral consensus formed in other cultures at various time like Nazi Germany?

Oh you mean when they believed they were doing God's will by killing millions of people?

Why not just commit suicide? what are you living for? I doubt you would be on the forum discussing the things you are if you lived without meaning.

I'm not going to kill myself because I know this is the only life I get, and that gives it so much more meaning than if I were going to live for eternity after I died. My life has whatever meaning I give it, which just so happens to be to do what makes me happy and enjoy my (relatively speaking) brief existence in this universe. I want to learn, laugh, love, and die knowing I lived my life to it's full potential, which I honestly don't think you can do if you believe that after you die, you spend forever in heaven or what have you.

Also, I would ask if you believe in heaven why you don't just kill yourself, but I know that the bible teaches that you would go to hell for that (which I suspect was put in there to stop the religious from simply offing themselves, as that could hurt the possible number of followers (you know, being that they would all be dead)).

 

[niky]

Well you are aware that natural selection and homosexuality are not compatible or make mush sense as that would hinder progress. So would the many genetic impurities that some have made a case for need to be accelerated (Hitler's obsession). For example we don't promote the death of the mentally handicap or remove their rights. But you can see how that might be a problem when you consider what evolution teaches. Telling a child he is a animal is child abuse in my opinion. You are picking and choosing which rights may or may not be promoted by admission of evolution. You speak of rights but where is the proof that you have any?

Evolution teaches and preaches nothing. The only principle of evolution is whoever lives and reproduces does so, and whoever does not, does not.

"Fittest" isn't subject to whatever prejudices we have. "Fittest" doesn't mean strongest, fastest, biggest or best looking. The "Fittest" society is simply the one that survives. A society with homosexuality survives better than one without. Simply because men without feminine attributes make terrible fathers.

In the end, though, "evolution" does not define rights. I highly suggest you read the "Human Rights" thread to come to an understanding of what does.

Reminder I argue these points to test the ability to live out your Atheism. It is a bit sad that niky would get from my post that I would think rape is alright.

You have not explained whether you think it is right or not. You've already been asked how you reconcile rape and infanticide in the Bible with morality.

For God has allowed for things like morality to be established in society and you can see this clearly when you seek out explanation for it.

Sorry. But God allowed a Godless Confucius and Siddhartha Gautama to establish morality? Whut?

Are we or aren't we living in a cosmic accident? Where do you get your meaning from? To quote atheist Albert Camus "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide." A lot of the points I'm making can be seen on the youtube channel askcliffe. He argues them much more gracefully then I lol.

Suicide is a cop-out. The quote is meant to suggest that since we have but one life, to waste it is... a waste. What's the problem with that? Do you believe suicide is moral? What if "God" told you it was?

In the Bible, we are told killing is immoral. But we are then told it is moral if God commands it. We are also told suicide is immoral. But in the same vein, if the alternative is to renounce God, as the choice given to many early saints facing trial, then committing suicide by executioner is totally moral.

So, then, answer: Is suicide moral?

That sounds a lot like sitting on God's lap to slap him. Explain your basis for trusting your evolved brain from a lesser being that is after all just a collection of chemicals firing off to provide you with a accurate representation of reality? Why trust the non-aggression principle now? What about previous moral consensus formed in other cultures at various time like Nazi Germany?

So you're telling me there was consensus that what the Nazis did was moral? That millions of Jews agreed it was moral for them to die?

Try again.

Once you understand that there was no consensus, you might start to understand where a non-religious moral viewpoint may start. But if you continue to insist that morality must be imposed from outside, you fall into the trap of accepting anything given by that outside authority as true, without questioning.

 

[Famine]

You say morality is objective and I agree.

What you are left with is a sad state where you can't say it is wrong only that you disagree. Who decides whats wrong? Only can say it is wrong from your perspective.

So you agree that morality is objective, yet you're stating it's subjective... Pick one.

Where do you get off telling someone that views rape or anything that fits the bill as reasonable and best for them?

One could have come to a logical conclusion by reasoning that rape would be pleasurable for himself and beneficiary to passing on his genetic line.

What's pleasurable and beneficial is not what is logical and objective. Pleasure is subjective. Benefit is subjective. Using (subjective) force to deny someone the (objective) right to their body is (objectively) immoral.

A great example of your inability to live out your atheism.

So...

Logically deriving the right to self and logically deriving the right to your own body from only known objective principles to show that raping someone is always wrong... somehow denies atheism?

It kinda confirms it, really. It shows that you can use a truly independent, logical process to arrive at a set of rights and moral values without at any point invoking the ineffable will and subjective codification of that will. "A" meaning the absence of, "theism" meaning the belief in gods - and we have a set of rigid, logical morals without that belief. And no-one had to smash babies against rocks, stone women to death for being raped, mutilate the genitalia of children, march across the world to kill Arabs or bomb an abortion clinic to get to these morals.

You'll want to look up the human rights thread now.

 

[Scaff]

To quote atheist Albert Camus "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide."

You seem to be implying that Camus was stating that life is meaningless and suicide the only answer, which is not the case and had you actually quoted him fully (rather than simply quote-mined again) and put his full quote in context that much would be clear.

“It happens that the stage sets collapse. Rising, streetcar, four hours in the office or the factory, meal, streetcar, four hours of work, meal, sleep, and Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday and Saturday according to the same rhythm – this path is easily followed most of the time. But one day the “why” arises and everything begins in that weariness tinged with amazement.”

“There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest – whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories – comes afterwards. These are games; one must first answer [the questions of suicide].”

Camus is not stating 'meaningless' as a fact, but rather as a question that almost everyone on this planet has asked themselves at one point or another, he his simply saying that he considers that question (is life worth living) to be the single most important philosophical question.

A short summary of the "The Myth of Sisyphus", which the quote is taken from can be found here:

http://www.selfknowledge.org/resources/bookreviews/TheMythofSisyphus.htm

I would however recommend reading the book however as it well written and very interesting, as he certainly doesn't even come close to saying that if life has no meaning (and he neither confirms nor denies that point) then its not worth living, rather that the absurdity of the quest for meaning is more than enough reason to live. In my view its another way of saying its not the destination that's important but the journey.

You seem to be saying that without a goal (heaven for you) then the journey (life) is without meaning, yet why can't the journey itself be the meaning? Why can't the journey itself be the point?

I live my journey as fully as I can because the end goal (my death) is nothingness, that's not a reason to give up, but rather a reason to make the absolute most of every second I have alive.

 

[fitftw]

Why make the most of life if one day you won't remember anything about it because you'll be dead and gone? I spend most of my days holed up in my room because going out is pointless to me. I've been around the world and it's not that special. I would understand wanting to make the most of life if you would be able to save those memories forever, but you can't. Life truly is pointless and the people who run the show are simply trying to destroy everything. A handful of people in each country want to destroy the world and they always somehow get their wish. The present is no different than any point in history. There will be horrific events to come in our lifetime on par with Hiroshima, the Holocaust, slavery, the massacre of Native Americans, etc...Why make the most of life when life is sad and painful for most people?

There is nothing to celebrate when half the world is starving to death.

 

[Scaff]

Why make the most of life if one day you won't remember anything about it because you'll be dead and gone? I spend most of my days holed up in my room because going out is pointless to me. I've been around the world and it's not that special.

Your choice, but given that you just get one go its not the one for me.

I would understand wanting to make the most of life if you would be able to save those memories forever, but you can't.

You are aware that as a species we are able to reproduce and pass our genetic code on?

We have plenty of ways of making an impact on the world (to a greater or lesser degree), without needing to be the sole owner of it for all time.

Life truly is pointless and the people who run the show are simply trying to destroy everything. A handful of people in each country want to destroy the world and they always somehow get their wish.

The world's been destroyed by numerous people in each country? Odd, I would have thought that would have been noticed.

The present is no different than any point in history. There will be horrific events to come in our lifetime on par with Hiroshima, the Holocaust, slavery, the massacre of Native Americans, etc...Why make the most of life when life is sad and painful for most people?

Because in doing so you may change that outcome, even if its just for one person.

There is nothing to celebrate when half the world is starving to death.

And nothing to achieve via inaction either. I assume you live in a part of the world that has a comparative wealth of resources in comparison to most of the globes inhabitants. Given that you have the ability to indirectly or directly make a difference.

You have chosen to sit on your backside and moan about how its all unfair and no one can do anything about it.That doesn't make existence pointless, but it does say something about your outlook on life (and arguably one that has very little to do with this thread).

 

[nielsenman2]

God does not say it is wrong for nonbelievers. He could probably be like okay that is your choice. He says do not get in to it for believers. If your gay go right ahead i dont care. I have a gay couson and he is a very strong believer in god and goes to church every day he can. Also, for whoever said the south east had the lowest education rates i ranked in the top 15% in the country and so did 15-30 other of my class mates the other people dont care that is why they are so low.

 

[fitftw]

Scaff if you truly believe you can stop imperialism and stop your government from ruining your life and everyone else's around you, then you're in denial. You can't change anything. The snowball will continue to roll down the mountain with or without you there trying to stop it. That's all I'll say about how pointless it is to attempt anything in life that goes against the agenda of the wealthy and powerful. They simply do not care about you, and they do not have to because what are you going to do about it?

That's why part of me believes in a creator. It's cruel to send me into this life where changing anything is borderline impossible and thus not worth the effort, and egoism is displayed and even accepted more than altruism. If this is all life is, then I sure hope there's something afterwards. History shows nothing but suffering and struggling. We will return to the Earth.

 

[Scaff]

Scaff if you truly believe you can stop imperialism and stop your government from ruining your life and everyone else's around you, then you're in denial. You can't change anything. The snowball will continue to roll down the mountain with or without you there trying to stop it. That's all I'll say about how pointless it is to attempt anything in life that goes against the agenda of the wealthy and powerful. They simply do not care about you, and they do not have to because what are you going to do about it?

Firstly no institute has 'ruined my life and everyone else's around me' nor is it impossible for individuals and/or collectives of people to change things.

History has many, many examples of exactly that occurring, from the end of slavery in the western world, racial integration, the end of apartheid in South Africa, the end of colonial rule (which in India was principally instigated by one person), etc, etc.

The world is not a perfect place by any measure, but its certainly not the doom laden world of oppression you are suggesting.

That's why part of me believes in a creator. It's cruel to send me into this life where changing anything is borderline impossible and thus not worth the effort, and egoism is displayed and even accepted more than altruism. If this is all life is, then I sure hope there's something afterwards. History shows nothing but suffering and struggling. We will return to the Earth.

You actually hope for a creator that sends you to what you seem to see as a literal 'hell on earth' and then wish to see 'it' again.

Change is not 'borderline impossible' by any means and doesn't have to occur on a grand scale to be worthwhile at all, however acknowledging that may be something you don't wish to accept. That certainly doesn't make it impossible.

 

[homeforsummer]

I bet you're a blast at parties, fitftw. Or has Marvin the Paranoid Android hacked your account?

 

[PzR Slim]

Why make the most of life if one day you won't remember anything about it because you'll be dead and gone?

Think this is probably one of the saddest and most pathetic statements I have ever read. I make the most of my life to see the happiness and difference I can make to my wife and daughters life, to those of my friends, to those of the kids I teach to swim on a weekend. When I'm gone my daughter will still be here, maybe with children of her own, if I can live my life to equip her as best I can so that she, her children and my future generations can live a happy, fulfilled life, striving to make a difference to the people they come into contact with then I think my life has a whole heap of meaning and I'll do everything I can to make the most of it.

Here's a tip to give your life meaning and make a difference. Pick up a phone book, look for numbers under the heading 'Charities', pick one at random, call them and tell them you would like to volounteer, you will now make a difference to some people and your life will have meaning. Or sit on your arse all day and moan

 

[fitftw]

I'm pathetic now? I don't go to parties. You guys must have never met a single depressed person in your life. Grow some compassion.

Volunteering for a charity is not going to help the needy as much as getting CEO's to take a 50% pay cut from $10 million a year to $5 million. There is nothing worth doing except gardening/farming, building houses, and making sure everyone has a job and makes a LIVABLE wage. Everything else is pointless filler created solely to further the government agenda. The fact that not everyone makes a living wage, not everyone has a job or a home or a garden, is a tell-tale sign that bad stuff is coming. Your denial of something like slavery happening in our lifetime is "pathetic" to me. Games like Gran Turismo are mere distractions to keep us content and blind to what's going on behind the scenes.

 

[Exorcet]

Why make the most of life if one day you won't remember anything about it because you'll be dead and gone?

I don't see why it's matters. I remember them now, so having them is pretty important to me. As for when I'm dead, if I'm forgotten, I won't particularly mind. I'll try to contribute as much as I can while I can, but there is not criteria for success that I need to meet.

Life truly is pointless and the people who run the show are simply trying to destroy everything.

I can't say I've noticed this. What's much more clear is the progress that people have been making for centuries.

There is nothing to celebrate when half the world is starving to death.

Yes, that is something that I don't think many people like. It's why some people try to do something about. However there is no crime in enjoying yourself while knowing this. Being miserable won't help them, in fact it will probably make them worse off.

Volunteering for a charity is not going to help the needy as much as getting CEO's to take a 50% pay cut from $10 million a year to $5 million.

You should know that the wealthy do like to help out, they often found charities, and well they create businesses which leads to new technology and also paying jobs.

There is nothing worth doing except gardening/farming, building houses, and making sure everyone has a job and makes a LIVABLE wage.

I'd disagree. A world where there is only that sounds miserable. Now we'd all like to see everyone with a job and money, but I think it's kind of important to make sure they have some time to enjoy themselves as well.

Everything else is pointless filler created solely to further the government agenda.

Can't really agree with that.

The fact that not everyone makes a living wage, not everyone has a job or a home or a garden, is a tell-tale sign that bad stuff is coming.

Then it's been coming for thousands of years? When does it get here? No, it's a sign that we're not perfect and we need to keep working on our society.

Your denial of something like slavery happening in our lifetime is "pathetic" to me.

I think everyone realizes that slavery exists.

Games like Gran Turismo are mere distractions to keep us content and blind to what's going on behind the scenes.

GT doesn't hide much, what it might do is inspire people to develop an interest in cars, grow up to become engineers, and make cars better. This can in turn lead to lower cost for cars which could eventually lead to cars in markets where they could not be purchased and thus a higher standard of living for those people. Just an example.

As it so happens, I am what I answered that question with and the wasteland I live in is pretty nice.

 

[Scaff]

I'm pathetic now? I don't go to parties. You guys must have never met a single depressed person in your life. Grow some compassion.

Then seek some assistance for it, but keep in mind that we can only reply to your words here.

I'm more than aware of the issues with depression having experienced it directly with a family member, a member who is now making a significant difference to the lives of numerous disadvantaged children.

Volunteering for a charity is not going to help the needy as much as getting CEO's to take a 50% pay cut from $10 million a year to $5 million.

No it will not make as much of a difference, it will however make a much bigger difference than doing nothing.

There is nothing worth doing except gardening/farming, building houses, and making sure everyone has a job and makes a LIVABLE wage.

Then stop moaning about it not happening and start actually doing it, I know of a number of community garden schemes that have started in my local area to help families grow food.

The fact that not everyone makes a living wage, not everyone has a job or a home or a garden, is a tell-tale sign that bad stuff is coming.

So when exactly is this bad stuff coming? Given that all of the above has been true for the whole of recorded history.

Your denial of something like slavery happening in our lifetime is "pathetic" to me.

Can you please let us know exactly who said that, as I can't recall anyone saying that.

Games like Gran Turismo are mere distractions to keep us content and blind to what's going on behind the scenes.

So turn off your PS3 and do something about it, as its sounds a lot like you are using the 'I can't change everything straight away' as an excuse for doing nothing.

 

[PzR Slim]

I'm pathetic now? I don't go to parties. You guys must have never met a single depressed person in your life. Grow some compassion.

Volunteering for a charity is not going to help the needy as much as getting CEO's to take a 50% pay cut from $10 million a year to $5 million. There is nothing worth doing except gardening/farming, building houses, and making sure everyone has a job and makes a LIVABLE wage. Everything else is pointless filler created solely to further the government agenda. The fact that not everyone makes a living wage, not everyone has a job or a home or a garden, is a tell-tale sign that bad stuff is coming. Your denial of something like slavery happening in our lifetime is "pathetic" to me. Games like Gran Turismo are mere distractions to keep us content and blind to what's going on behind the scenes.

I called the statement pathetic not you. Volounteering would not help as much as getting a CEO to take 50% pay cut, debatable but I'll give you that one. One thing is for certain though, sitting on your arse doing nothing is definitely not going to help the needy as much as doing some voluntary work.

Whose denying slavery will happen in our lifetime? I'm sure there are plenty of slaves the world over as we speak. Do something about it then, search the internet for charities who deal will slavery, whether it be slavery of domestic workers or kitchen staff in restaraunts. Contact them, ask if there is anything you can do to help. Maybe you will make a difference, it's a guaranteed certainy that you wont make a difference if you do nothing.

 

[niky]

If nobody does nything because it's hopeless, then nothing gets done.

Bill Gates has willed almost his entire fortune to charity. In terms of charitable contributions, many of the richest people give millions every year, and often in a targetted manner to make the most difference.

I may not be rich, but I've participated in clean-ups, disaster relief missions, WHO projects, medical missions (including polio eradication) and others. I've walked through floods, fought fires and worked my ass off to help others.

I feel bad because I can't dedicate time to these things like I used to... but at least when I go, I won't feel like my life has been totally wasted.

And in the meantime, I do my part in other ways. I write for the magazine, advocate fuel economy and frugality (I've done economy seminars for SHELL) and I get to live out my dreams and test drive dozens of cars every year. It's not my main line of work, and it pays little, but it's a kick-ass job. And I got it because I started writing car reviews here on GTPlanet, inspired by Gran Turismo.

Oh, and I have kick-ass kids with my loving wife. I got them by turning off the console, getting off my butt and doing something with my life.

Is the world doomed? Of course. You can't beat entropy. Sooner or later everything ends. But the ending is not important. What matters is what you do between now and then, because that's all you have.

 

[KBRacing2488]

:tup:Run for President of the world. ^^^

 

[niky]

Nah. That's Famine's job. I suck at leadership.

 

[homeforsummer]

If nobody does nything because it's hopeless, then nothing gets done.

This. Too many people mindlessly moan about stuff, not enough people quit moaning for long enough to do something about it.

This applies on a micro and a macro scale. Don't like the world? Change it. Whether you're only changing your own life or the lives of millions, a small difference is better than no difference.

I too know people with depression. Well, knew people with depression - they both picked themselves out of it, changed their lives, got married and have started having kids. Either could have kicked around and moaned about their lives but instead they did something more worthwhile.

The existence or otherwise of God has absolutely nothing to do with it. If you believe in God then perhaps it's something you should try and absorb into your life a little more - many do find happiness in religion. If you don't believe in God, then do what you think is important.

PzR Slim was right. It is pathetic to moan from the sidelines when you have plenty of chances to get involved.

 

[Super Novi]

Not gonna assume that he does exist or not.

 

[arora]

Do you believe in depression? Why yes, yes I do.

 

[ScouserInExile]

Also, christianity is the only religion thay has not been proven false or innacurate. They have actually proven some stuff true.

That's quite a bold statement when you consider that Christianity, Islam and Judaism are basically the same religion.

 

[Kingland093]

Not really. We believe in the same God but have very different beliefs.

 

[PR1VATEJ0KER]

Religious moderates are the shade under which religious extremists justify their beliefs.

 

[arora]

The first amendment provides the protection under which all religious are free to practice.(in the u.s. that is) Justification is not required.

 

[nielsenman2]

Not really. We believe in the same God but have very different beliefs.

The gods are different as well but they are a little similar.

 

[Azuremen]

The gods are different as well but they are a little similar.

Um, no, they are in fact the same God. Islam points to the Christian God, they have the same prophets (up till Jesus) as Judaism, and all are built on the same manuscripts.

I'm pathetic now? I don't go to parties. You guys must have never met a single depressed person in your life. Grow some compassion

Having been depressed myself and containing plenty of compassion, (something you should work on yourself) I have to say life isn't pointless. Your attitude certainly isn't helping it because you are just hell bent on thinking the select few our out to get us, the common man, which isn't the case at all. The fact you stand there and lecture us about how we are pathetic because we actually do things is nothing more than you trying to justify your excuse for taking no action.

Go seek some help. And no, it isn't pointless, despite what you may have already assumed.

 

[XoravaX]

I know theists get tetchy when you say "God of the gaps" but that's really all it is. Pick something we don't fully understand, like the beginnings of the universe, and fill it with God. Bingo, difficult question answered. Just doesn't cut it for me, I'm afraid. That it's somehow preferable to trying to work out the actual answers seems like a step backwards for humanity.

You've got it wrong. You don't have to combine science and religion - I don't know what was in the beginning, but I'm curious to know as much as can be known with proof.

On the other hand, I believe there is God. I just don't know what is his part in this universe, if it even matters (and yes, I still regard myself as Christian).

You mean they published their findings so that they could be peer-evaluated? Which ultimately lead to it being shown as an error rather than faster-than-light travel. Kind of what science is all about - observe something and put forward an idea, then let your peers pull the idea and findings apart to validate it.

No - they published their results to the public. If they publish it to peer evaluation, they don't announce it with cat-sized letters on their homepage and give BBC, NBC and RTL interviews.

 

[PR1VATEJ0KER]

If you look for answers in an iron age book, your going to have a bad time.