Do you believe in God?

[Yttrium99]

One of my favorite parts is the first 5 chapters of Mosiah. If you can come up with a better (Dali Lama is pretty close) description of how to be a good person, let me know. I'd love to read it.

Something constantly taught in Elementsry schools (both religious and not religious) is the simple rule of treating others the way you want to be treated.

 

[dimassa19]

I don't 'believe', I 'know'...

 

[huskeR32]

I don't 'believe', I 'know'...

Knowing something requires evidence. Care to share yours?

 

[UKMikey]

I have a feeling that the reason threads like this go around in infinite circles is because believers hold their belief in a part of their brain that is more instinctual than rational while non believers (and believers of competing religions) use logic and rationality to challenge those deeply held beliefs in others. Perhaps this creates conflicts that lead to tribalized agression, I don't know. But belief in the divine doesn't seem to me to be something that can be explained or argued rationally.

 

[Dotini]

belief in the divine doesn't seem to me to be something that can be explained or argued rationally.

Belief in some variation of the "divine", otherworldly or numinous becomes a lot harder to deny if you have had direct first person experiences which could be construed as otherwise unexplained.

It also becomes more logical and rational to explain when you invoke aliens or technologically/spiritually advanced visitors from another realm. Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, it is said.

 

[BobK]

It also becomes more logical and rational to explain when you invoke aliens or technologically/spiritually advanced visitors from another realm.

Not really. That's more like rationalizing than rational.

Arthur C. Clarke notwithstanding.

 

[Danoff]

I have a feeling that the reason threads like this go around in infinite circles is because believers hold their belief in a part of their brain that is more instinctual than rational while non believers (and believers of competing religions) use logic and rationality to challenge those deeply held beliefs in others. Perhaps this creates conflicts that lead to tribalized agression, I don't know. But belief in the divine doesn't seem to me to be something that can be explained or argued rationally.

Cognitive Dissonance. Religious indoctrination requires training your brain to apply an inconsistent set of rules to different aspects of your reality. Devices like a "spiritual realm" or simply defining something as "beyond science" are what enables this. All you need to do is convince someone that they should accept some part, any part, of reality outside of rational thought, and you have the seed planted for any amount of unsubstantiated contradictory mythology. Rationality is your only mechanism for deciding what knowledge to accept and what knowledge to throw away. Once you get someone to toss that tool aside, they have nothing with which to judge information - you reduce them to the level of someone blowing on a pair of dice and saying "I've got a good feeling about this one, let it ride!".

 

[Imari]

But belief in the divine doesn't seem to me to be something that can be explained or argued rationally.

Which is fine. But believers also have a tendency to try and hold their beliefs up as rational.

There's nothing wrong with choosing to throw reason aside, as long as you're aware that you're doing so and are comfortable with what that entails. However, a lot of religious people are actually of the opinion that being rational about it is a far greater risk. As though the supreme being would not want them to use their divinely crafted meat brains or something.

I'm totally fine with people who are like "I grew up in a religious family, it just works for me and I like the community that I'm a part of. I know there's no particular reason to believe either way, but I have a good life and I'm happy to let it ride. Others can do what they want."

There are actually a lot of these. Most of them, probably. Just not in here. People come here to try and test the strength of their faith, and feel better about themselves for resisting all the nasty things that the atheists and Muslims and heathens have to offer them. It's odd.

Very few come in with the express intent of mutual discussion, sharing of information and broadening of one's knowledge.

 

[dimassa19]

Knowing something requires evidence. Care to share yours?

Of course! When I was 8 years old, I fell off the roof. I saw a 'man' flying towards me and caught me in the air and put me on the ground. Then he disappeared. In my adult years I knew that 'man' was an angel ... (without wings).

 

[Danoff]

Of course! When I was 8 years old, I fell off the roof. I saw a 'man' flying towards me and caught me in the air and put me on the ground. Then he disappeared. In my adult years I knew that 'man' was an angel ... (without wings).

I honestly would not stand firmly behind any of my memories from 8 years old. Especially not one that was inconsistent with everything else I had ever experienced (this is the part where many people would explain that something far less concrete happened later which further convinced them).

 

[dimassa19]

I honestly would not stand firmly behind any of my memories from 8 years old. Especially not one that was inconsistent with everything else I had ever experienced (this is the part where many people would explain that something far less concrete happened later which further convinced them).

My father saw me falling and ran desperately in my direction and saw that I had not suffered any injuries. Then I explained what had happened.

 

[Danoff]

My father saw me falling and ran desperately in my direction and saw that I had not suffered any injuries. Then I explained what had happened.

That's actually worse. Now your memory is actually being shaped by your father's recounting of your recounting of it.

The boy scouts* has a few "hazing" rituals that get performed on new 11-12 year old scouts that join up (or at least they used to, I imagine that's not the case these days). One of them is a fictional hunt in which younger scouts are sent out in the woods with an embarrassing noise that they have to make over and over to catch the creatures. Ultimately, after much training and some fake near-misses, the younger scouts just sit and make their call noise in the woods in the dark until they realize the joke.

There is also a fire-gazing ritual in which they're told they can see the future as long as they perform a chant... eventually they realize the chant is a joke phrase.

In both cases, I recall MULTIPLE 11-12 year olds swearing that hey saw the fictional creatures (exactly according the the fake description) running around - which was impossible. And several boys also attested to being able to see visions of their future in the fire after performing the joke chant.

These are kids who are 50% older than you were. This is why I would not stand firm on the memory or statements of an 8 year old, including myself. None of those kids maintained the validity of their statements at any time after realizing it was a joke - even years later.


*Not actually an officially sanctioned activity condoned by the Boy Scouts of America

 

[UKMikey]

Cognitive Dissonance. Religious indoctrination requires training your brain to apply an inconsistent set of rules to different aspects of your reality. Devices like a "spiritual realm" or simply defining something as "beyond science" are what enables this. All you need to do is convince someone that they should accept some part, any part, of reality outside of rational thought, and you have the seed planted for any amount of unsubstantiated contradictory mythology.

Cognitive dissonance would explain why believers get angry when challenged to explain their beliefs logically. Those that I've encountered seem to put an emphasis on personal revelation rather than top down indoctrination though. If they have been indoctrinated it could be influencing how one rationalises (or "rationalises") the experience to oneself though it'd make it hard to convince non believers of the truth of their claims. Although that wouldn't explain Pauline conversion if such a thing actually exists.

I can certainly attest that my conversion to atheism came across as a personal revelation (of the "hey, this is all BS") variety.

As far as I know it's impossible to eradicate religion for any length of time as people will always gather in secret to worship. Perhaps they have an innate need to do this, but as long as the religious keep practice their beliefs in a way which doesn't impinge upon non believers then I'm less worried than I would've otherwise been.

 

[dimassa19]

That's actually worse. Now your memory is actually being shaped by your father's recounting of your recounting of it.

The boy scouts* has a few "hazing" rituals that get performed on new 11-12 year old scouts that join up (or at least they used to, I imagine that's not the case these days). One of them is a fictional hunt in which younger scouts are sent out in the woods with an embarrassing noise that they have to make over and over to catch the creatures. Ultimately, after much training and some fake near-misses, the younger scouts just sit and make their call noise in the woods in the dark until they realize the joke.

There is also a fire-gazing ritual in which they're told they can see the future as long as they perform a chant... eventually they realize the chant is a joke phrase.

In both cases, I recall MULTIPLE 11-12 year olds swearing that hey saw the fictional creatures (exactly according the the fake description) running around - which was impossible. And several boys also attested to being able to see visions of their future in the fire after performing the joke chant.

These are kids who are 50% older than you were. This is why I would not stand firm on the memory or statements of an 8 year old, including myself.


*Not actually an officially sanctioned activity condoned by the Boy Scouts of America

OK.

 

[BobK]

Of course! When I was 8 years old, I fell off the roof. I saw a 'man' flying towards me and caught me in the air and put me on the ground. Then he disappeared. In my adult years I knew that 'man' was an angel ... (without wings).

How do you know he was an angel? Did he come back and introduce himself as such? Could he have been some sort of fantastical, mystical creature?

What made you conclude that God was involved?

My father saw me falling and ran desperately in my direction and saw that I had not suffered any injuries. Then I explained what had happened.

Was he able to corroborate what you thought you saw? If he couldn't see your rescuer, did he at least note that you paused in midair for a split second then descended gently to the ground?

 

[dimassa19]

How do you know he was an angel? Did he come back and introduce himself as such? Could he have been some sort of fantastical, mystical creature?

What made you conclude that God was involved?



Was he able to corroborate what you thought you saw? If he couldn't see your rescuer, did he at least note that you paused in midair for a split second then descended gently to the ground?

My father was reading a newspaper on the roof slab and I was pulling a toy cart. In this way, he did not see the trajectory of my fall. He could not see if I was ''stopped in the air''.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

I am laughing so hard at the circular arguments here.

Someone recently said to me something along the lines of "We stick with our previous beliefs".

So....

When do the arguments end?

(Don't answer that.... )

 

[ryzno]

I feel like people who need religion, have some sort of empty space inside that needs to be filled and told what to do.

 

[niky]

My father was reading a newspaper on the roof slab and I was pulling a toy cart. In this way, he did not see the trajectory of my fall. He could not see if I was ''stopped in the air''.

Children are incredibly tough.

My cousin fell back first into the grass from around ten feet.

No injuries.

We had a seven year old fall through our stairwell roof and land on the concrete stairs approximately twenty feet below.

He suffered nothing more than a chipped tooth.

Then there's the infamous video of a runaway car rolling right over a little kid.

Small children have a high surface area to volume ratio, and relatively low weight. This makes them hardier than adults in falls and scrapes... up to a point.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Small children have a high surface area to volume ratio, and relatively low weight. This makes them hardier than adults in falls and scrapes... up to a point.

They're also more flexible.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

About 2 weeks before his death, Bruce R McConkie gave his final testimony. I remember hearing it live. It deeply affected me. Over the next several years, as I went through my teens, I refused many, many things that I had been told and believed.

But I remembered how I felt watching this.



And, I always remembered the poem that he had written. It was put to music, and truly is my testimony. Not because he wrote it, but because I have felt for myself that it is truth.



So, what can we understand? What can we reason?

I don't know. God created this world. He can break the laws of physics because He set them in place and has the power to do so.

But I have one thing that I have come to a small understanding of. And that is the atonement. I won't say that my understanding is complete, or that I can ever grasp it in full.

But, I feel that my vague hint of what it possibly could have been like is something I have been led to understand. I apologize for my imperfection in explanation, but maybe this could make sense to someone:



Thanks for looking. Enjoy.

 

[CodeRedR51]

God created this world.

Source?

 

[TeamEdge702]

"Do you believe in God"? I did when I was a kid. But growing up and learning about our history and seeing the "real world" I no longer believe a "God" exists. In my opinion I believe the world could be a peaceful place if religion fades away.

 

[Imari]

He can break the laws of physics because He set them in place and has the power to do so.

If it can be broken it's not a law of physics.

 

[Famine]

I am laughing so hard at the circular arguments here.

Me too.

 

[BobK]

How do you know he was an angel? Did he come back and introduce himself as such? Could he have been some sort of fantastical, mystical creature?

What made you conclude that God was involved?

Was he able to corroborate what you thought you saw? If he couldn't see your rescuer, did he at least note that you paused in midair for a split second then descended gently to the ground?

My father was reading a newspaper on the roof slab and I was pulling a toy cart. In this way, he did not see the trajectory of my fall. He could not see if I was ''stopped in the air''.

Thank you for that answer. Now could you be so kind as to answer the other questions? To reiterate:

How do you know he was an angel? Did he come back and introduce himself as such? Could he have been some sort of fantastical, mystical creature?

What made you conclude that God was involved?

 

[dimassa19]

Thank you for that answer. Now could you be so kind as to answer the other questions? To reiterate:

How do you know he was an angel? Did he come back and introduce himself as such? Could he have been some sort of fantastical, mystical creature?

What made you conclude that God was involved?

Oh, thanks for reminding me.
Well, I knew he was an angel because I have read the autobiography of the writer Jules Verne, and in his childhood he saw his guardian angel.
The guardian was a normal man, without wings, which has disappeared same as mine.
Thus, I concluded that these beings are extradimensionals, just as God.

 

[Danoff]

Oh, thanks for reminding me.
Well, I knew he was an angel because I have read the autobiography of the writer Jules Verne, and in his childhood he saw his guardian angel.
The guardian was a normal man, without wings, which has disappeared same as mine.
Thus, I concluded that these beings are extradimensionals, just as God.

Q.E.D.

 

[dimassa19]

Q.E.D.

OK.

 

[Danoff]

OK.

WTH?