Do you believe in God?

[TenEightyOne]

Are you claiming there is little evidence for the well-established native American belief in a death journey of the soul

Nope, but a transcendence into another plane is not the same as "a path to the stars" unless you're analogising... which in this case doesn't really work with the Native American 'spirit world' beliefs and doesn't inform an already nebulous concept.

or rather that there is little evidence for native Americans actually having a soul and/or that it actually takes such a journey?

I would apply my answer to all people: I believe that we can define 'the soul' but I do not believe that it continues to exist in its own right (only vicariously) after death.

 

[Dotini]

Nope, but a transcendence into another plane is not the same as "a path to the stars" unless you're analogising... which in this case doesn't really work with the Native American 'spirit world' beliefs and doesn't inform an already nebulous concept.

Do you, as a person knowledgeable of the Pyramid Texts, also deny that the Old Kingdom Egyptians also had a death cult religion which involved a transcendence of the soul into another plane leading to a journey to the stars?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Do you, as a person knowledgeable of the Pyramid Texts, also deny that the Old Kingdom Egyptians also had a death cult religion which involved a transcendence of the soul...

Mostly, although 'death cult' is another difficult term.

...leading to a journey to the stars?

Egyptians were Earth-centric, at night the sun was consumed before being defecated in the morning and rolled across the sky by a scarab beetle. It's hard to fix the idea of "a journey to the stars" against that in any meaningful context.

 

[Dotini]

Mostly, although 'death cult' is another difficult term.



Egyptians were Earth-centric, at night the sun was consumed before being defecated in the morning and rolled across the sky by a scarab beetle. It's hard to fix the idea of "a journey to the stars" against that in any meaningful context.

Then it's clear to me you have not studied the Pyramid Texts, or indeed the native American belief system, particularly the mound builders. I think your strongly assertive negative opinions are pretty bold for one who is unaware of so much.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Then it's clear to me you have not studied the Pyramid Texts, or indeed the native American belief system, particularly the mound builders. I think your strongly assertive negative opinions are pretty bold for one who is unaware of so much.

I think you're confusing visiting stars with ancient ideas that visible space bodies were representative of immortal beings.

 

[Dotini]

I think you're confusing visiting stars with ancient ideas that visible space bodies were representative of immortal beings.

No, but I am finished with taking you seriously.

 

[TexRex]

Egyptians were Earth-centric, at night the sun was consumed before being defecated in the morning and rolled across the sky by a scarab beetle.

Ah, ancient cultures...

 

[Imari]

...or rather that there is little evidence for native Americans actually having a soul...

There's little evidence for anyone actually having a soul (in the sense of an eternal fundamental part of your being that continues to exist independent from the physical body). That's just a factual description of the current state of knowledge.

 

[TexRex]

There's little evidence for anyone actually having a soul (in the sense of an eternal fundamental part of your being that continues to exist independent from the physical body).

I particularly like that bolded bit, especially when the question appears to have been framed in such a way so as to imply a level of prejudice against a group of people (that group being native Americans) on the part of the solicited.

 

[UKMikey]

I particularly like that bolded bit, especially when the question appears to have been framed in such a way so as to imply a level of prejudice against a group of people (that group being native Americans) on the part of the solicited.

I hope it's not some kind of Manifest Destiny thing.

 

[Imari]

I particularly like that bolded bit, especially when the question appears to have been framed in such a way so as to imply a level of prejudice against a group of people (that group being native Americans) on the part of the solicited.

It's becoming remarkably common practice in political discourse of late. Something will be framed as a racial statement to try and make it seem more absurd or outrageous, whereas if simply stated as something generic to humans it would be fairly innocuous.

I don't think it was intentional on the part of Dotini, native Americans were the topic of discussion. But it is interesting how people will naturally restrict their thinking to within a certain group rather than extend it to the most generalised formulation of the idea possible. The same sort of faulty logic applies to God; if you extend a lot of the logic that leads to God to it's endpoint then it tends to become either self-contradicting, lead to the opposite of what was intended, or require huge assumptions.

 

[Dotini]

Both Old Kingdom Egyptians and mound building North American natives had a profound belief in the journey of the soul to certain stars. Profound enough to construct huge monuments apparently oriented to those stars. Tens of thousands east of the Mississippi. I've visited some. Last week, I visited some huge monuments in Las Vegas. They were oriented towards nudity, sex, alcohol, gambling and loud "music".

 

[Imari]

Both Old Kingdom Egyptians and mound building North American natives had a profound belief in the journey of the soul to certain stars. Profound enough to construct huge monuments apparently oriented to those stars.

Given that the earth is rotating and tilting with respect to the stars, how does one orient a huge monument towards a specific star?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Given that the earth is rotating and tilting with respect to the stars, how does one orient a huge monument towards a specific star?

One simply has to be extremely picky about when one does it. The chancels of churches are often aligned with sunrise on their Saints Day, for example.

Revisiting @Dotini's comments I still don't like his phrase "journey to the stars" as that strongly implies (or I strongly infer) a journey from the Earth, through space, to a star. Beyond that (and I blame flowery language for the misunderstanding) Native Americans aren't unusual in believing that the stars represent deities or, in some cases, the souls of dead humans.

 

[Dotini]

Given that the earth is rotating and tilting with respect to the stars, how does one orient a huge monument towards a specific star?

At last, an extremely intelligent question! 👍
It's customarily done in one or more of several ways. The alignment of features of the monument can be made either at sunrise or sunset, and either at the winter or summer solstice, or the spring or fall equinox. Precession is taken into account when establishing the original alignment.

Since the discoveries of Hawkins, Marshack, Seidenberg, van der Waerden (Geometry and Algebra in Ancient Civilizations, New York, 1983) and others we have to admit the existence of an international paleolithic astronomy that gave rise to schools, observatories, scientific traditions and most interesting theories. These theories, which were expressed in sociological, not in mathematical terms, have left their traces in sagas, myths, legends, and may be reconstructed in a twofold way, by going forward into the present from the material remains of Stone Age astronomy such as marked stones, stone observatories, etc., and by going back into the past from the literary remains which we find in sagas, legends, myths. An example of the first method is A. Marshack, The Roots of Civilization, New York, 1972. An example of the second is de Santillana-von Dechend, Hamlet's Mill, Boston, 1969."[3] Further influences can be found in the work of Leo Frobenius. Leach 1970 mentions particularly Die Mathematik der Oceaner (1900) and Das Zeitalter des Sonnengottes (1904).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet's_Mill

 

[Imari]

At last, an extremely intelligent question! 👍
It's customarily done in one or more of several ways. The alignment of features of the monument can be made either at sunrise or sunset, and either at the winter or summer solstice, or the spring or fall equinox. Precession is taken into account when establishing the original alignment.

That wiki page is pretty savage in it's assessment of the legitimacy or accuracy of the claims made about such things in the book. It doesn't seem like something that would be a particularly solid basis for an argument for mythological-era astronomical knowledge. The summary seems to be "cute idea, but no real evidence".

As far as alignment of features, it would seem to me that you'd need either explicit writings from a civilisation or several similar examples in order to establish a solid claim beyond mere coincidence. There's a lot of stars out there, and I reckon the chances are good that on most buildings you can get some set of major features to line up with some significantly bright star on any given day of the year.

 

[Imari]

Argh, double post.

 

[Dotini]

That wiki page is pretty savage in it's assessment of the legitimacy or accuracy of the claims made about such things in the book. It doesn't seem like something that would be a particularly solid basis for an argument for mythological-era astronomical knowledge. The summary seems to be "cute idea, but no real evidence".

As far as alignment of features, it would seem to me that you'd need either explicit writings from a civilisation or several similar examples in order to establish a solid claim beyond mere coincidence. There's a lot of stars out there, and I reckon the chances are good that on most buildings you can get some set of major features to line up with some significantly bright star on any given day of the year.

Obviously you didn't read very far into the article. But yes, initial reaction to archeoastronomy was indeed hostile. But you really should come up to speed before rushing to utter condemnation of scholarly efforts to understand the past.

As I explained, a monument may be oriented by the alignment of its main features to, say, the sunrise at winter solstice. When a second set of features, say the center of the monument and a unique hole or aperture in the wall is then found to align to a major star on the same day, then that alignment may be considered purposeful and not coincidental.

If you are determined to be dismissive and negative about the astronomical aspects of Egyptian and Mayan pyramids, Newgrange, American Indian earthworks such as Serpent Mound, and all the many other sites around the globe, well then fine, it's your loss, and it's not my job to fix you. My purpose is simply to note that many ancient cultures had religious beliefs which involved the soul and the sky. And they often expressed their beliefs in stone monuments constructed at great effort. All easy to ignore or condemn when you get to spend your time and money on sex, booze, rock music and gambling in a modern monument to wealth and conspicuous consumption. How ignorant could those primitives get? Viva Las Vegas!

 

[Imari]

Obviously you didn't read very far into the article. But yes, initial reaction to archeoastronomy was indeed hostile. But you really should come up to speed before rushing to utter condemnation of scholarly efforts to understand the past.

Don't overgeneralise like that. I didn't utterly condemn all scholarly efforts to understand the past. I read the wiki page you provided, and noted that the assessment of that one particular source by scholars at large was pretty negative.

As I explained, a monument may be oriented by the alignment of its main features to, say, the sunrise at winter solstice. When a second set of features, say the center of the monument and a unique hole or aperture in the wall is then found to align to a major star on the same day, then that alignment may be considered purposeful and not coincidental.

You think so? I wouldn't assume that it was purposeful from a single monument with no other supporting evidence. That's well within the realms of coincidence, on any given solstice you can pick a patch of sky and be pretty guaranteed that a major star will pass through it at some point that day.

Like I said, I'd be looking for either additional evidence beyond the building itself to supplement the hypothesis, or multiple buildings showing the same characteristics. If it was important enough to them to do once, it would probably be important enough to do multiple times. You'll note that there's more than one example of those buildings with cruciform symbols on them, for instance, that being a major part of that particular religion.

From a scientific point of view, one example of anything is pretty much meaningless. It is at best an invitation to go looking for more information. It is insufficient to base a claim of star worship for an entire culture.

If you'd like to discuss any specific examples then I'm more than willing, but I'm responding to what you're giving me. What you describe is not substantial evidence of anything.

If you are determined to be dismissive and negative about the astronomical aspects of Egyptian and Mayan pyramids, Newgrange, American Indian earthworks such as Serpent Mound, and all the many other sites around the globe, well then fine, it's your loss, and it's not my job to fix you.

Jesus, that went suddenly hostile. I'm attempting to apply a little rational skepticism. I asked a simple question and was given a source that seemed pretty shaky and was openly described as such by the page you directed me to. If that's not good information, then that's sort of on you for pointing me to it.

If you want to talk about one of those other examples specifically, then by all means. But I don't think my observation that scholars generally find Hamlets Mill to be a poor piece of work to be unwarranted. It's an accurate summation of the "Reception" section of the page you directed me to, a section that is at the bottom (thank you for the accusation that I didn't read it).

My purpose is simply to note that many ancient cultures had religious beliefs which involved the soul and the sky. And they often expressed their beliefs in stone monuments constructed at great effort.

This is getting a bit motte and bailey here. You claimed rather a lot more than that.

You're old enough to know that discussions work best between people who aren't just blowing smoke up each others buttholes, and that my politely questioning your sources or logic is not "determined to be dismissive and negative".

I've said nothing to imply that I believe that such things couldn't exist, only that I disagree that your stated lower bound of evidence is sufficient to be conclusive and that the single source you provided doesn't seem to be particularly robust. If that's too much for you, maybe bow out for a bit.

 

[TexRex]

That ancient civilizations have developed systems of belief isn't the least bit indicative that such systems of belief are accurate...rather merely that humans probably have a deeply-felt need for answers.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/why-we-wonder-why/

Humans are curious creatures, and our curiosity drives a search for explanations. So while this search may fit squarely in the realm of science, it is hardly confined to the pursuits of scientists and intellectuals.

By helping us understand our environment, explanations give us some control over our lives.

Now...systems of belief may indeed revolve around observations--amazingly accurate ones at that--but far too many couldn't be [and still can't be] substantiated by observation, and that opens the door to speculation.

I don't believe speculation in this area is inherently bad, but speculation that satisfies this innate need we have opens the door for further speculation and the attribution of "guidelines" supposedly offered by a deity, and while some of these guidelines may have genuinely positive implications ("Thou shalt not kill" is probably a good example of this, with some exceptions of course), but there are others that are likely based solely in one individual's biases and such guidelines are just another form of control utilized by the powerful...the more pervasive the belief system, the more control. Of course some atrocities [if not most or even all] have been committed in the name of such arbitrary notions.

 

[TheGeologist]

If God was real, then wouldn't he have put Spa in GTS by now? #TheRealQuestions

 

[TexRex]

If God was real, then wouldn't he have put Spa in GTS by now? #TheRealQuestions

I mean..."God's will" is largely subject to interpretation, and therefore it's simply not possible to completely rule out the implications of such things having been considered in not including it--mysterious ways and all that.

 

[TheGeologist]

mysterious ways and all that.

I hate this phrase because people use it as a cop out all the time.

 

[Imari]

If God was real, then wouldn't he have put Spa in GTS by now? #TheRealQuestions

He hasn't put it in there because he knows that it'll make you a better person not having it. Obviously.

 

[Dotini]

"Beer is the proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy".
-- Benjamin Franklin

 

[TexRex]

I hate this phrase because people use it as a cop out all the time.

Yeah, and my own use of it was tongue-in-cheek and more than a little bit of a jab at those who use it as an actual cop-out because they're incapable of explaining an aspect of their belief.

Even if you do believe in an omnipotent deity, what's so bad about admitting (to someone else, or even yourself for that matter) that you don't have all the answers instead of spouting off something that doesn't actually explain anything?

 

[Dotini]

Apropos of the 'God is an illusion' theme.

Michael Persinger, Scientist and Inventor of ‘The God Helmet’ Passes Away

Micah HanksAugust 17, 2018

Michael Persinger, a famed neuroscientist and occasional researcher into the unexplained, has passed away. His death was confirmed on social media by Laurentian University on Wednesday.

Persinger graduated from the University of Wisconsin, Madison in 1967 and obtained an MA in Physiological Psychology from the University of Tennessee in 1969. In 1971 he obtained his Ph.D. from the University of Manitoba, setting the course for a lifelong career in the study of the human brain.

Persinger is perhaps best known for his research involving what is called “The God Helmet,” an apparatus which stimulated the temporal lobes and allowed the replication of various unexplained phenomena. With data gleaned these studies, Persinger sought to understand how things like electromagnetic fields (EMFs) and infrasound could be related to what he termed a “sensed presence,” which is common in a variety of paranormal claims. His research was instrumental in helping establish the neurophysiology of various kinds of paranormal experiences.


Persinger in 2012.

According to a statement from Laurentian University, “Dr. Persinger was globally renowned for his scholarly contributions, having published hundreds of peer-reviewed academic journal articles across several different fields of study during his entire academic career.

“Much of his work focused on the commonalities that exist between the sciences and aimed to integrate fundamental concepts from various branches of science. He was a regular contributor to national and international television and radio programs, speaking on topics such as unusual experiences, climate change, religious experiences and many more.”

“The unknown is everywhere,” Persinger said in an interview in 2012. “People have often asked me why I study so many different things. In fact, science can be destroyed by having the disciplines too thin, because there’s no integration.”

Persinger’s defense of his multidisciplinary studies can be seen in the interview below:

Persinger was, in other words, a renaissance man when it came to the sciences. He was also an unconventional educator in the modern era of “safe-spaces” and “trigger warnings” on college campuses; in 2016, Persinger aroused controversy for requesting that his students sign a “Statement of Understanding” about his use of vulgar language in the classroom (Persinger had provided this form to his students for close to a decade at that time).

Among such terms were “the F-word, homophobic slurs and offensive slang for genitalia,” CBC reports. The controversy resulted in a temporary hiatus from teaching for Persinger, who defended his actions.

“One of my techniques is to expose people to all types of different words,” he said in a 2016 interview, “because they influence how you make decisions and how you think.”

Many students filed petitions in defense of Persinger’s more controversial courses, and in at least one instance, a lawsuit. Despite his antagonistic relationship with the University, Persinger was nonetheless voted the province’s best lecturer in a TVOntario contest in 2007.

In addition to his scientific pursuits, Persinger was also politically active. “Dr. Persinger served on a number of committees both at Laurentian University and beyond. He was a long-time member of Senate starting in 2007 and served as the Senate representative to Laurentian’s Board of Governors since 2012,” according to a statement from Laurentian University.

Details about his funeral and surviving family have not been released by the University.

“Dr. Persinger never hesitated to ask important questions of the various governing bodies,” the statement read, “and fought for what he believed in.”

Persinger was an innovator in the various scientific disciplines he chose to work in. Energetic, unconventional, and at times uncompromising, Persinger’s contributions to scientific explanations for unexplained phenomena in nature will remain among the greatest of the last century.

Sleeping giant wearing the “God Helmet” mural by Ella and Pitr, as seen on the rooftop of the Science North building in Sudbury, Ontario.

 

[Dennisch]

I wonder if they think that they can pray themselves out of this one.

 

[Joey D]

Oh hey, I used to live in Kent County. This is exactly the kind of behavior I'd expect.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I wonder if they think that they can pray themselves out of this one.

One of the more interesting comments in the cesspit comments section points out that the father wears glasses. Must have got them from god, I guess?