Do you believe in God?

[TexRex]

Thow shalt not commit adultrey doesn't cover this?

Does it? You've demonstrated time and again that you're not interested in explaining things, especially when things you assert without explanation are remarkably stupid (like that rape is caused by sex addiction), but if you think that adultery somehow covers rape, the age of the victim notwithstanding, then you should explain why you think it does. That one needn't be married to perpetrate such a violation ought to rule it out.

As I have said before, hiding behind religion to do horrible things is absolutely atrocious.

And yet not only do individuals do exactly that, but leaders within the church will make an effort to cover it up so that the institution may be preserved.

Individuals perpetrate such acts in the presence of religion as well as in the absence, but what purpose do the belief and the institution serve if not to dissuade these acts? Indeed when the belief and the institution don't prohibit such heinous acts by name, can the belief and the institution reasonably be considered good or right?

At least the belief and the institution are consistent in their denigration of consent. Homosexuality is a sin though parties have given consent, and sexual acts are not strictly forbidden when one or more party has not.

 

[Famine]

Thow shalt not commit adultrey doesn't cover this?

It doesn't say "thou shalt not commit childery", so they're fine with it...


In any case, "adultery" in English applies to people who are married and have sex with someone who is not their spouse, although - typically - Exodus does not make what consititutes adultery (na'aph) clear.

Leviticus has more to say, although it's problematic and also does not clarify exactly what "adultery" is. However, in its proscriptions regarding who a man (whether married or not) may lie with, it does not explicitly mention children generally. It mentions another man's wife, your father's wife, daughter-in-law, mother-in-law, another man*, a woman on her period, an animal, your uncle's wife, your sister-in-law, a half-sibling, and your brother's wife.

Most notable in all of that is that women get a largely free pass (although they suffer the same punishment - death - if they are also married) except for animals.

Additionally, almost all of them are about incestuous sex. The original Hebrew almost certainly refers to men who are related to you when it refers to lying with another man: "miskeve" only appears in one other location in the Bible besides Leviticus 18:22 (Genesis 49:4), and refers to an incestuous rape of Bilhah (Reuben's father's concubine) by Reuben.

For... some reason, the Bible isn't particularly overt about wanting its cultists not to **** children.

 

[HenrySwanson]

What an absolute load of bollocks.

The first episode of "Surviving Death" on Netflix is worth watching.

 

[GBO Possum]

Can't imagine why I would.

Texas megachurch pastor Robert Morris resigns after "inappropriate sexual behavior" with 12-year-old

Robert Morris allegedly had a sexual relationship with a 12-year-old girl between 1982 and 1987.

www.cbsnews.com

"Inappropriate" sexual behavior with a 12 year old. As opposed to "appropriate", I assume. Stay away from pastors, kids, just stay away.

 

[Imari]

Valid points all, but I'm looking at this as the "word" of "God" "spoken" to "Moses." "He" would have to know this is something people may do, right? Couldn't "He" have set "Himself" aside for a moment ("hold no god above Me," "don't use My name in vain," "don't forget My special day," "don't create graven images of Me") and say not to do this particular thing? Or, and not to denigrate the number ten, but would it have been so bad for there to be eleven commandments? Or if there has to be the same number on each tablet, why not twelve? "He" could chuck in another self-fellatory commandment.

I'm left to wonder if "God" actually thought the thing all that bad. If not, and it doesn't seem so farfetched in the broad view, what would that say about "Him"? What would that say about those who choose to worship "Him"?

It's yet more circumstantial evidence that the commandments were written by contemporary humans with contemporary morals and views of society. If you're talking about an ultimate being giving instructions on how to live your best life, there's no way it matches up nicely with mostly how people were living but be slightly less of a dick to each other. That's the sort of thing a human would say, because they know that humans won't accept big change but you can maybe convince them to not promote other religions and to steal slightly less of their neighbour's stuff.

There isn't a valid explanation for why something that didn't happen happened, and religionistas are so deep in the sauce that this sort of cognitive dissonance barely even registers. It's well covered by "He's God so he must know what he's doing, stop asking awkward questions". Rape generally gets written off under the "God must have known that they needed to be raped to grow as a person or learn some lesson" so it wouldn't surprise me to hear someone pull that here too.

 

[TexRex]

Sure don't.

Traveling pastor, wife face new child rape charges; victims urged to come forward

Detectives are urging anyone who believes they could be a victim to come forward.

www.wsmv.com

Still no.

Youth Pastor Gets 19 Years in Prison for Sexually Abusing Two Boys

When the man realized the youth pastor who had sexually victimized him as a child was going to adopt two young boys, he stepped forward.

www.northwestgeorgianews.com

Christians ought to stop raping children.

Can't imagine why I would.

Texas megachurch pastor Robert Morris resigns after "inappropriate sexual behavior" with 12-year-old

Robert Morris allegedly had a sexual relationship with a 12-year-old girl between 1982 and 1987.

www.cbsnews.com

[again, to the titular question] lolno

Palmetto church in shock after pastor arrested on child porn charges (WFLA, NBC)

“Everybody is tempted and sometimes we give into that temptation and now we have to deal with the aftermath of it,” Bianco said. “I hope and pray to God that we react correctly, we keep Palm View strong in the neighborhood, and people might come to worship there if they choose. That is my want, and that is the want of the congregation of Palm View Baptist Church.”

Yeah, no...not everybody is tempted. I am begging Christians to stop normalizing and thus dismissing child sexual predation.

Tangentially, "child pornography" is a problematic description because pornography implies consensual acts and the documentation and subsequent distribution thereof. There's nothing wrong with pornography. At all. In the absence of consent to acts, documentation, distribution, or any combination of these things, they constitute abuse. "Child pornography" is child sexual abuse material because the consent of children to these things is not recognized by law.

 

[Danoff]

Yeah, no...not everybody is tempted. I am begging Christians to stop normalizing and thus dismissing child sexual predation.

You're recoiling against a moral failing of Christianity - which is to equate moral transgressions.

I think the use of the word "temptation" is interesting, because you can't necessarily list child pornography as a sin in Christianity right? It's not one of the 10 commandments. I guess it's one of the "7 deadly sins" which is like... bible adjacent? I don't really know to be honest. I guess they just thought "temptation" was safe.

But the 7 deadly sins, (which, I guess is canon?) that's where we equate pride and sloth with wrath. Or where we equate ALL of the "lust" sins, which child pornography is presumably an example of. Like if you think your neighbor's wife is hot, you're committing a lust sin AND breaking a commandment which is at least as bad as this child pornography example to Christians right?

This is not moral authority. This is moral stupidity. This is also why "I'm sorry, I believe in Jesus" feels a little underwhelming for getting into heaven after a lifetime of this stuff - because harm is not all the same.

I'm glad that America doesn't adopt this moral teaching, and that we lock away offenders for different lengths of time, and with different accompanying penalties in a way that FITS THE CRIME as opposed to one size fits all. I just wish that Christians could pick up on these ways that their moral teaching are not moral.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Does it? You've demonstrated time and again that you're not interested in explaining things, especially when things you assert without explanation are remarkably stupid (like that rape is caused by sex addiction), but if you think that adultery somehow covers rape, the age of the victim notwithstanding, then you should explain why you think it does. That one needn't be married to perpetrate such a violation ought to rule it out.

And yet not only do individuals do exactly that, but leaders within the church will make an effort to cover it up so that the institution may be preserved.

Individuals perpetrate such acts in the presence of religion as well as in the absence, but what purpose do the belief and the institution serve if not to dissuade these acts? Indeed when the belief and the institution don't prohibit such heinous acts by name, can the belief and the institution reasonably be considered good or right?

At least the belief and the institution are consistent in their denigration of consent. Homosexuality is a sin though parties have given consent, and sexual acts are not strictly forbidden when one or more party has not.

Or anything like unto it.

Seriously....

The level of detail that you are demanding is silly. Think. Why do I need to do a college course on all of the details.....

 

[TexRex]

Or anything like unto it.

Seriously....

The level of detail that you are demanding is silly. Think. Why do I need to do a college course on all of the details.....

Adultery is a very specific thing. The bible even defines it. I don't object to the prohibition of adultery by the bible provided anybody who understands that the bible is fiction is not subject to enforcement of it. I'm fine with these prohibitions as self-governance, though. It's basically a personal moral code, and while I recognize that the bible is fiction, I am personally not given to commit adultery. That's not due to the bible prohibiting it but to the love and respect that I have for my spouse.

Laws which enforce prohibition on adultery violate rights without preserving rights, and as such are bad. Adultery violates no rights. Adultery violates trust. Committing adultery and contracting a communicable disease which may be passed to a partner whose trust was violated without their knowledge may be a violation of rights, but prohibiting adultery is an overbroad means of preserving such rights.

The bible's definition of adultery does not include the violation of sexual consent, the victim's age notwithstanding. I don't understand why you, one who purports to be guided by the bible, are so wont to disregard its text. I mean this is consistent with Christians, but it's not consistent with how you've communicated your faith.

The bible actually prohibits a lot of things and defines them. Where the bible prohibits homosexuality, it should be seen as odd that it doesn't prohibit the violation of sexual consent of children. A rational interpretation of this is that its author was offended by homosexuality but not by child rape. That's...bizarre. On one hand you have mutual consent to sexual activity by members of the same sex, and on the other hand you have CHILD RAPE.

 

[Ghost Lap]

I’m just not an ******* who thinks something like child suffering is part of God’s plan so “who gives a ****”, they’re going to “see something better”.

Well suffering is an inevitable part of life in the flesh is it not? Do you think that life down here is all about simply having a good time and enjoying pleasure after pleasure and escaping suffering altogether?

What kind of growth or value would one gain from such an experience void of any kind of suffering, have you ever just embraced your own suffering (in moderation) out of curiosity like any good scientist would supposedly do?

 

[TexRex]

Mental illness.

 

[Exorcet]

What kind of growth or value would one gain from such an experience void of any kind of suffering, have you ever just embraced your own suffering (in moderation) out of curiosity like any good scientist would supposedly do?

This just begs the question why do we need growth? You've proposed that we were created by a perfect and all powerful being. If we were not complete at creation that perfect and all powerful being must have withheld something from us.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that embracing suffering is part of science and I'm not sure that I know what that even means.

 

[Ghost Lap]

This just begs the question why do we need growth? You've proposed that we were created by a perfect and all powerful being. If we were not complete at creation that perfect and all powerful being must have withheld something from us.

Because we are imperfect beings I guess, all of us has faults to our character you could say in one way or another that life will inevitably expose (parts of ourselves that are unlike God). Going through something like suffering is very good at humbling us and shaping our character for the better in the long run, it can even make us more kind and sympathetic to others if you grow from it enough.

Perhaps God did withhold something from us, I'm not the Messiah unfortunately and don't have the ultimate answer, all I can do is speak from personal experience.


"I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that embracing suffering is part of science and I'm not sure that I know what that even means."

Science in it's truest form is about self experimentation and verification is it not? What better way to validate something then to actually try it for yourself and report back with your own verification.

 

[McLaren]

Well suffering is an inevitable part of life in the flesh is it not? Do you think that life down here is all about simply having a good time and enjoying pleasure after pleasure and escaping suffering altogether?

What kind of growth or value would one gain from such an experience void of any kind of suffering, have you ever just embraced your own suffering (in moderation) out of curiosity like any good scientist would supposedly do?

Today I learned once more that child suffering "is an inevitable part of life", that child suffering is a "kind of growth or value to be gained from", & that child suffering should be "embraced out of curiosity".


You're like the poster child for religion to be left behind.

 

[HenrySwanson]

There's nothing wrong with pornography. At all. In the absence of consent to acts, documentation, distribution, or any combination of these things, they constitute abuse.

While this could be true, the industry for one has massive problems.

 

[Ghost Lap]

Today I learned once more that child suffering "is an inevitable part of life", that child suffering is a "kind of growth or value to be gained from", & that child suffering should be "embraced out of curiosity".

Suffering in general is an inevitable part of life, a child doesn't get a cookie guess what, they suffer. A person stubs their toe they suffer, someone gets cheated on by their spouse or loses their dream job and they suffer, we all experience suffering of some kind on a daily basis.

It's Yin and Yang, you can't have the good aspects of life without the contrast of the darker aspects of it. I don't make the rules, God/the universe does.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Suffering in general is an inevitable part of life, a child doesn't get a cookie guess what, they suffer. A person stubs their toe they suffer, someone gets cheated on by their spouse or loses their dream job and they suffer, we all experience suffering of some kind on a daily basis.

It's Yin and Yang, you can't have the good aspects of life without the contrast of the darker aspects of it. I don't make the rules, God/the universe does.

To be fair, it should be obvious that the child suffering being talked about here is not that the child didn't get a cookie.

Using an extreme example, what do you make of what Elisabeth Fritzl went through:

Josef Fritzl trial: 'She spent the first five years entirely alone. He hardly ever spoke to her'

Elisabeth helped her father fix the door on his new cellar – then her world went dark

www.theguardian.com

 

[Ghost Lap]

To be fair, it should be obvious that the child suffering being talked about here is not that the child didn't get a cookie.

Using an extreme example, what do you make of what Elisabeth Fritzl went through:

Josef Fritzl trial: 'She spent the first five years entirely alone. He hardly ever spoke to her'

Elisabeth helped her father fix the door on his new cellar – then her world went dark

www.theguardian.com

Horrific to hear about and confirms what I have come to know in that the world is a dark and evil place and full of ungodliness and always has been, this is one of those examples of extremely dark.

This case is one of many extreme examples throughout history of one going through immense suffering. I'd be interested to hear about her now and what stance she has on it all, how she views life having gone through what she did. From what I hear she contemplated suicide often but had the inner strength to persevere through it and has managed to find some normality in her life now.

I truly do feel in my heart that this momentary life has it's trials and tribulations but that the true rewards for it all are waiting for us on the other side, Corinthians 4:17 comes to mind.

 

[CTznOfTime]

I had an epiphany in the shower last night, and so yes today I say yes.... I don't know how I will feel tomorrow

But with certitude, today I believe there is a parallel universe where all the souls of people that ever lived, good people, fly to together...

There is an after life, a place where all the good souls go to.

Edit: I doubt that taking your own life will automatically get you there... Natural health or death by accident would..
But You cannot force your way into "heaven"...
It doesn't seem natural. St Peter is the bouncer. I said it here first.
It has to be decided and chosen for you....

 

[McLaren]

Suffering in general is an inevitable part of life, a child doesn't get a cookie guess what, they suffer. A person stubs their toe they suffer, someone gets cheated on by their spouse or loses their dream job and they suffer, we all experience suffering of some kind on a daily basis.

This discussion of child suffering specifically revolved around children suffering in ways they don't deserve to, i.e. horrible diseases/medical issue.


The fact you're bringing up a child not getting a cookie as being in the same vein of child suffering that everyone else has been discussing is disgustingly on par for you. Please, don't bother responding; I'm fully aware of your stance now that children deserve to suffer from horrible things b/c your God says so.

 

[Exorcet]

Because we are imperfect beings I guess, all of us has faults to our character you could say in one way or another that life will inevitably expose (parts of ourselves that are unlike God). Going through something like suffering is very good at humbling us and shaping our character for the better in the long run, it can even make us more kind and sympathetic to others if you grow from it enough.

Perhaps God did withhold something from us, I'm not the Messiah unfortunately and don't have the ultimate answer, all I can do is speak from personal experience.

The problem is that if we were created by a god then all these faults have to go back to that god. With the ability to do anything, creating us in the state where we knew all we needed to know would not have been beyond possibility. You don't have to know exactly what happened to see the problem with a perfect creator making an imperfect creation. That would have had to have been a deliberate choice or the result of a limitation, meaning omnipotence doesn't apply.

"I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that embracing suffering is part of science and I'm not sure that I know what that even means."

Science in it's truest form is about self experimentation and verification is it not? What better way to validate something then to actually try it for yourself and report back with your own verification.

Science is objective knowledge. Self experimentation might be used to gain knowledge, but it's not necessarily the best way to answer a question that you might have or fill in a gap in your knowledge. You also need to be careful with things like confirmation bias and sample size. Relying on your own senses or experience can backfire.

Edit: I doubt that taking your own life will automatically get you there... Natural health or death by accident would..
But You cannot force your way into "heaven"...

The stance against suicide in religion is curious. I think most would agree that if someone is considering suicide, it's a strong indication that something is very wrong in that person's life. It is a health issue because the normal human state is to preserve your own life. Someone is so dissatisfied with living that they want to escape, yet the response to this is punishment. It really only make sense when consider it a rule built to fix a loophole in afterlife based religions. If paradise is assured in death, suicide would be a good thing, but if everyone was dead it would be hard to fill a church.

 

[Meythia]

the world is a dark and evil place and full of ungodliness and always has been

According to the fiction of creation, the situation and place is like this by intention, there is no ungodliness in it.
For someone of (Christian) faith, this is all god.

For someone of no faith, this is just Wednesday.

 

[TexRex]

While this could be true, the industry for one has massive problems.

That's nice. It doesn't actually have to do with what I said. Want to try again without the sophistry?

 

[McLaren]

While this could be true, the industry for one has massive problems.

The problem I have with this example is that Mia has since returned to the pornography industry. Does she do hardcore footage? No, in fact, she's rather tame now selling soft-core & she manages her own content. But, she's still partaking in that industry & marketing to the same consumer base.

Also, Mia has also been exposed as having fibbed about her experiences in the industry to push her views (like claiming to be underpaid) til' the production studio revealed how much they paid her & offered evidence. This is also a woman who made a persona affiliated with pornography & then got upset people were referring to her as a former porn star.

For someone who claims to be against the industry, she has no problem continuing to a use a name that the industry made famous, partaking in the industry by selling her own 18+ content, or even with her jewelry line, using pictures of her topless or close ups of her underwear/bikini bottoms to sell the jewelry.

I have no problem with her returning to sexual content & I acknowledge the industry has a really dark underbelly. But, she's not exactly the person I'd want as a spokesperson for why the porn industry is bad if she's still a competitor in it.

 

[Ghost Lap]

The problem is that if we were created by a god then all these faults have to go back to that god. With the ability to do anything, creating us in the state where we knew all we needed to know would not have been beyond possibility. You don't have to know exactly what happened to see the problem with a perfect creator making an imperfect creation. That would have had to have been a deliberate choice or the result of a limitation, meaning omnipotence doesn't apply.

It is a logical paradox but remember that God is surely beyond all logic and so we can't really expect to apply our limited logic to God and gain any real understanding of God's ways. The existence of the universe without a higher source of creation is a logical paradox yet it still exists and we seemingly all accept that.

I believe everything is as it is because God allows it to be so and so I'm not really in any position to question God or God's ways as being wrong on the matter. Maybe God being ever perfect wishes to experience imperfection through us down here, we'll never really know but it's always good to be open minded and discuss such things instead coming to a logical dead end on the matter.

 

[Meythia]

paradox

the only paradox in an omnipotent god is the impotence in being omnipotent: the paradox of the stone that either can or can not be lifted.

 

[Danoff]

Maybe God being ever perfect wishes to experience imperfection through us down here

Kinda played yourself there.

Perfect god wishes.... for anything at all that he doesn't have?

 

[Ghost Lap]

Kinda played yourself there.

Perfect god wishes.... for anything at all that he doesn't have?

God being perfect can't experience anything other than perfection in of itself, it needs to create something imperfect in order to experience something besides itself, that's where this place comes into play I guess.

This discussion of child suffering specifically revolved around children suffering in ways they don't deserve to, i.e. horrible diseases/medical issue.

Who are you to say that they don't deserve such things, you're doing what you typically do which is trying to play God and intersect your own personal opinion onto reality, basically trying to argue that reality is wrong which works out to have a 100% fail rate.

 

[TexRex]

Random person: "That's interesting. I wonder what caused that."

The mentally ill: "Obviously a magical being did it. That same magical being did all these other things too. And when that magical being gets bored, it does more things just to pass the time. Oh and the magical being doesn't like you doing some things so you should avoid them or the magical being will punish you."

 

[Danoff]

God being perfect can't experience anything other than perfection in of itself, it needs to create something imperfect in order to experience something besides itself, that's where this place comes into play I guess.

Why can a perfect being not experience imperfection? That seems like an imperfection.

You're projecting some kind of human failing (not sure which) on your God. Which is to say, that it has some kind of lack of imagination, mental control, or empathy, or some kind of lack of experiential powers which you yourself surely lack, but a perfect being would be imperfect for lacking.

It's as though you said a perfect being feels no pain, and so a perfect being cannot feel pain. If pain is desired and cannot be felt, it is imperfection (in at least that respect) to not be capable of feeling pain.