Do You Class GT5 Prologue as a Sim

[machscnel]

Iv'e recently been playing some of my old PC sims (GTR 2 etc) and due to the need to find a patch, it led me to the sim racing forums, where they had a thread debating whether GT5P compares with the likes of SIMBIN titles, rFactor etc. Now I can think of a few reasons why you can't really compare the two
1. GT5P is a demo, (we'll use GTR2 as our example) GTR2 is a full game
2. Not one car from GTR2 is in GT5P
And the reason which in my opinion is the most important is -
3. How many of these debaters have actually driven a FIA GT Spec car round Spa, or conversly, how many have driven a GT-R around Fuji.

Point 3 leads to my question. Do you class GT5P as a sim and why? Personally I do not think I'm qualified to answer the question in full. My partial answer would be that in the game, the cars do exactly what I've seen or heard they do from drivers/shows etc which is a simulation in my mind anyway

 

[Lernatix]

It is a game. They all are. GTR2 and rFactor are IMHO better sims simply because
they implement more data to car behaviour, such as tyre wear and temps, fuel
loads and pit strategy as well as full setup options including anti roll. Also any PC
sim/game has free community based DLC, GT will never have that and based on
current PSN trends, each new car/track will cost more than a five year old Top
Gear episode. GT 1-4 did have nice car modding options that simbin don't however.

I concider GT5p to be the most expensive beta in history. Apples and oranges?

 

[newbielives]

I think if your classification of a sim is solely based on the driving model then GT5p is a sim , however if you're also including car damage in your classification, then that would leave out GT5p

 

[Lernatix]

Personally I could care less about visible damage.
Invisible engine/steering damage would do.

GT5 needs revised/removed pealties and collision
detection from this millennium to make it sim-worthy.

Haven't seen punts this bad since OutRun.

 

[myke6699]

Right now in its reiteration GT5P is a driving sim. It's very limited in what i does but it fills the basic criteria for a simulator: it recreates an experience of driving. Oc course, provided that a wheel/pedal combo is used as part of the setup.

 

[RedBaron]

GT5p has now very well done tarmac car behaviour and if it has totally rewritten tyre engine (which is causing imperfections long, long time, already in past games and mainly in low speeds) and some minor things, it would be perfect. But in other aspects as gravel and sand physics (so important for future rally part of the game!), colissions, visible, invisible or simply very ridiculous (eiger) barriers, damage, weather, daytime changes, tyre wear, view and hud customization and finally useless online mode (after two year testing!!!!!) it's still just very arcadey game.

 

[Mad Matt]

Well it is a simulator, there can be no argument. What can be discussed is if it is a good simulation and if something like GTR2 is better.

Even REVS on the BBC micro was a simulator, it just wasn't as good as a modern one.

I remember an early moon lander simulator from the 70s. There were almost no graphics but it was still a simulator as it was trying to simulate a real world experience.

I've got GTR2 and it does have many good points but I prefer GT5p overall. I find the GT5p physics to feel more real world in most areas, but GTR2 models more things, like tyre marbles. I also don't like GTR2 force feedback, but I do like the way it simulates a race weekend and that there are a lot of car set-up options.

I've never driven any of the cars in GTR in real life but I have been to Spa many times. On the other hand I have been driving for many years and have driven everything from lorries, to forklifts to MR sports cars.

Over to you.........

 

[myke6699]

In AutoSimSport review of GT5P, the reviewer admits that it is a driving simulator while the physics is better than decent, in fact he rated as "great". I guess most tend to view that if it's too easy and the if car ain't slippin' and slidin', than it ain't no simulator. The Honda NSX in GT5P, with the aid of the Logitech G25, is close enough to the real Honda NSX that I happen to have in my garage. Although GTR and the other simbin sim/racer are more flexible and perhaps more detailed when it comes to execution, but since none of the cars are production models, they can get away with not adhering to the stricter standard that PD has to deal with.

 

[RAVELLRON]

i played many times at gtr2 with N.A.P applied... this game is a SIM....
gt is an arcade simulator... for me 90%sim and a 10% arcade....
however the longevity about win prize, cars, money to spent is a must in a game like gt....

 

[dzidza]

First of all, comparing this two game is nonsense, gt5p and gtr2. Even full gt5 and gtr2 is going to be hard to compare, gt5p doesn't have cars build for track racing, and gtr2 doesn't have cars made for normal road driving. this is the main difference.

I have been playing rfactor and gtr2 for more the 4 years,and i am playing a league on regular basis, and all i can say that each game is slightly different in car physics, what is real i don't know, i have never driven audi r8, and audi r8 gt, or aston gt, or normal aston, or ferrari f430gt, or f430 road version to be able to say which game is more of a sim.

To be honest, how cares which one is better in simulation of perfect physics, i have fun and challenge with all of those games, i am glad that i bought them.

I think, that switching between those games and how fast one can adopt is saying that they are close to each other and with some differences

 

[Paulie]

To answer the thread title, yes, yes I consider it a sim. If this isn't a sim, and it's certainly not arcade because it's most realistic, then it must not exist.

 

[dzidza]

i played many times at gtr2 with N.A.P applied... this game is a SIM....
gt is an arcade simulator... for me 90%sim and a 10% arcade....
however the longevity about win prize, cars, money to spent is a must in a game like gt....

Revellron, can you do donuts in gtr2, maybe one, but not more than two in a row. Judging from that point of view gtr2 isn't that good sim, or it has very poor tyre model.

 

[mu22stang]

It's a video game and we are all biased. That being said, anyone that reviews this game and says it's anywhere close to an arcade game isn't playing the game long enough. I don't really pay attention to reviews from gamers or professionals because, once again, despite how much these reviewers can be regarded as "experts" on the subject, they are either biased to some game or have a preconceived notion of what a sim should feel like. On top of that, they're probably using R3 tires and not N2-S1 as they should for road cars. Yes there aren't changes in tarmac surfaces from one position to another, yes the tires physics are good, but more or less constant, and yes there is no damage, yet. But seriously, how the heck can you play this game and actually work to get a good lap time, push the limits, feel the intricacies of the physics and then put down the controller/wheel and categorize it with the likes of NFS or Project Gotham. You have got to be completely out of your mind.

 

[RAVELLRON]

Revellron, can you do donuts in gtr2, maybe one, but not more than two in a row. Judging from that point of view gtr2 isn't that good sim, or it has very poor tyre model.

i specified with NAP applied is a sim.. many professional driver tried it with that patch applied and many of them appreciate...

i didn't made a "vs" i only made an example to make understand you what is a sim and what is gt...
i like to play gt cuz its a way different to play a driving game...

 

[dzidza]

i specified with NAP applied is a sim.. many professional driver tried it with that patch applied and many of them appreciate...

i didn't made a "vs" i only made an example to make understand you what is a sim and what is gt...
i like to play gt cuz its a way different to play a driving game...

GTp5 is as much sim as GTR2 is

 

[Hun200kmh]

If a game is a sim is to me defined by car behaviour's physics. All else (pits, tuning, tyre wear, etc) just adds to it. So, GT5P is definitely a sim in my view, even if a few "physics" tweaks could and should be made.

 

[Kneedragger]

If a game is a sim is to me defined by car behaviour's physics. All else (pits, tuning, tyre wear, etc) just adds to it.

I havent seen this mentioned before but I agree with it. The main thing is that the basic 'engine' is solid; meaning weight transfers, correct acceleration and braking models, road adhesion, etc. Once you go into the level of tuning and tire wear the question becomes more vague, if anything (I havent ever heard anyone argue that the camber tuning in gt5p is not like real life camber tuning.) So the basic gt5p engine = sim. Other parts of the game seem designed for little children ('ok, now pass all the cars in one lap' etc.)

 

[red7]

To answer the thread: I think its getting there. I'm anticipating the implement of damage NOT because I care about seeing cars ripped in half but because we may finally see real collision physics as well as cars that can flip and such. This is what will truly move things to being a sim.

Also tire wear and FULL setup options will augment things. Right now we have less options than GT4 so one could imagine what we could have for 5.

 

[Kryz11]

GTR 2 EVO does have R8, vipper, etc So you can compare them with GT5P

For me... GTR2 falls behind in terms of Physics.. car's dont seem to handle right, I know it's race cars, but GTR EVO does have STREET cars, and they did really bad job with them. But I do understand that it is a OLD game engine.

On the other hand GT5P falls behind in damage and weather systems.


So yeah what would you guys rather have? Realistic damage? (even GTR2 evo dont have) Or realistic physics/car handling?

Handling of car should be MOST important FACTOR in any sim racing games. GTR2 evo does an OK job, while GT5P does it best.. Yes I said it.
Yeah GT5P is a sim as anyother PC racing sim games, even tho it's falling short in damange and weather.

I concider GT5p to be the most expensive beta in history. Apples and oranges?

Wrong Buddy. iRacing is the most expensive BETA in history. It charges you pretty much for every new car and track, not to mention you have to pay 15 dollars a month.

 

[Exorcet]

GT is a decent driving sim but not a good car sim.

The physics give you a good idea about how to drive a car in reality. I think it is helpful to learn a track in GT before driving it in real life.

However, cars lack individuality in GT. Their characters are too subtle (and in the case of 4WD exaggerated). And besides acceleration not much (in terms of performance numbers) varies between cars.

So yeah what would you guys rather have? Realistic damage? (even GTR2 evo dont have) Or realistic physics/car handling?

Handling of car should be MOST important FACTOR in any sim racing games.

I completely agree

 

[red7]

Yes I would rather have realistic car behavior over damage, but whats missing is even decent collision physics at the moment. Also no bump or curb will upset your car. You can see the suspension reacting to it but the car is unfazed. Anyone who has driven live for speed or even iracing can agree that bumps do upset the handling of a car and they can and do flip!

 

[myke6699]

Yes I would rather have realistic car behavior over damage, but whats missing is even decent collision physics at the moment. Also no bump or curb will upset your car. You can see the suspension reacting to it but the car is unfazed. Anyone who has driven live for speed or even iracing can agree that bumps do upset the handling of a car and they can and do flip!

Maybe not with stickier compound but when I drive with N2-N3 or even S1 tires, the curbs at Suzuka or Daytona greatly affect the cars especially if you happen to use FFB steering wheel. I suggest driving the Ferrari F430 or even the 599 with either N2-N3 or S1 tires and drive a highe speed over the curbs at Suzuka, Daytona Road or London Road course.

 

[sxy rider 39]

It's the closest thing to a sim that I think I'd ever want. Driving the higher HP rear wheel drive cars without TC, on Professional Physics can be a royal PITA sometimes, and if the game were anymore "realistic" I don't think it'd be very fun at all. Maybe the loss of grip physics aren't exactly 100% spot on, but the game gives a very "real" sensation of the principle that sometimes you have to be slow to go really fast. Hope that helps.

 

[Kryz11]

It's the closest thing to a sim that I think I'd ever want. Driving the higher HP rear wheel drive cars without TC, on Professional Physics can be a royal PITA sometimes, and if the game were anymore "realistic" I don't think it'd be very fun at all. Maybe the loss of grip physics aren't exactly 100% spot on, but the game gives a very "real" sensation of the principle that sometimes you have to be slow to go really fast. Hope that helps.

Yes it's still not 100% but it's doing it rather well. Besides the Tire compuds are GT brand, they are not simulated after BFGoodrich, Michelin, or other tire companies.. GT pretty much takes what average N tire would feel like. How Sports tires should feel like, and Racing tires.
As well I like how you can take any car from GT, compare it to real life, and times are pretty accurate if not it's off by few seconds either way.


When I race/drive (driving sim lol) in Gran Turismo with wheel, I feel like I am driving it, the car.. I get the sensation, especially when pushing the car. feeling when it looses controll, or close to loose the control.
In GTR Evo.. I get sensation of being a race car driver more then feeling the car. I still feel the car, but it's not as good as GT delivers.


It would be great to see a POLL:
-Yes
-NO
-Mixed feelings

 

[JosVerstappen]

i've got mixed feelings now, hopefully they will go to yes when the full version is released.

 

[eight6er]

I think GT simulates driving a car fast very well, but when it comes to messing with car for fun like doing donuts, or drifting or even trying to roll the car, or drive on two wheels, it does need work. I think these things are important to have right, or else it is not a driving simulator to me, as these are the things I like to do in a car, but cannot do as much as I would like to.

 

[Kryz11]

Even tho GT is not having damage yet, I still will consider this game as a SIM.

Thanks for the poll

 

[Lernatix]

Wrong Buddy. iRacing is the most expensive BETA in history. It charges you pretty much for every new car and track, not to mention you have to pay 15 dollars a month.

My bad, most expensive beta on PS3 perhaps? lol

4th poll option. - It's a sim-prologue.

 

[unimental]

Wrong Buddy. iRacing is the most expensive BETA in history. It charges you pretty much for every new car and track, not to mention you have to pay 15 dollars a month.

LOL, it's about $13 per month (with a year sub) and you get $60 credit towards new content... but you probably knew that, right?

And, it's been out of "beta" for almost 6 months. It's definitely the pinnacle of sim racing at the moment, not a beta, and not cheap.

That said, I definitely consider GT5P a sim. Forza 2 was the best on a console before GT5P, but cockpit view, G25 support, and overall feel (despite limited tracks/cars) makes GT5P the closest you can come to a PC sim on a console. Yes, damage would be a huge plus (collision physics need attention first, as has been mentioned) but IMO we're still driving the most accurate console simulator available.

 

[Kryz11]

LOL, it's about $13 per month (with a year sub) and you get $60 credit towards new content... but you probably knew that, right?

And, it's been out of "beta" for almost 6 months. It's definitely the pinnacle of sim racing at the moment, not a beta, and not cheap.

That said, I definitely consider GT5P a sim. Forza 2 was the best on a console before GT5P, but cockpit view, G25 support, and overall feel (despite limited tracks/cars) makes GT5P the closest you can come to a PC sim on a console. Yes, damage would be a huge plus (collision physics need attention first, as has been mentioned) but IMO we're still driving the most accurate console simulator available.

I think they are still working on it.. I never remeber the team calling it a FULL game. 6 months ago they just open to everyone and not just exclusive members. So it's just like PROLOGUE. I am waiting for to get this game next year. Once they add more cars, content and improve the game still, etc.. Then I would pay 50 bucks and 13 dollar fee... Or however the game costs.