Dodge Neon SRT-4 Stage 3

[TS1AWD]

in plain english, can someone explain to me what torque steer is so i dont look like an idiot trying to read this and at the same time make a comment about something i dont know about like duke just stated?

I know someone can get more technical than I can but I will do my best...
Torque steer is common among FWD cars running high power and torque. When the car is under a hard acceleration, the two front tires spinning act as a gyro causing the steering wheel to be pulled in different directions, and the car wanting to follow different paths other than straight.

 

[Emohawk]

Really? How do equal length driveshafts help with that then?
I thought it was from one wheel getting more power then the other, and pulling the car in that direction. That would explain why LSDs are also supposed to fix it (?IIRC). Although I still don't know about the driveshafts.
(and if the front wheels acted as gyros, wouldn't they also do that at high speeds in any type of drive configuration? Powered or not, they're still spinning)

 

[JNasty4G63]

Really? How do equal length driveshafts help with that then?
I thought it was from one wheel getting more power then the other, and pulling the car in that direction. That would explain why LSDs are also supposed to fix it (?IIRC). Although I still don't know about the driveshafts.
(and if the front wheels acted as gyros, wouldn't they also do that at high speeds in any type of drive configuration? Powered or not, they're still spinning)

Close, but not quite. An LSD will help get the power to the wheels that need it. But, torque steer is just the differing rate of twisting on the drive shafts in a FWD car. And, when they are different lengths, its more apparent. Here was a quick search I found to better describe it..........

.....Torque steer can be a problem on high-performance front wheel drive cars. This is the name given to the tendency for some front wheel drive cars to pull to the left or right under hard acceleration. It is a result of the offset between the point about which the wheel steers (which falls at a point which is aligned with the points at which the wheel is connected to the steering mechanisms) and the centroid of its contact patch. The tractive force acts through the centroid of the contact patch, and the offset of the steering point means that a turning moment about the axis of steering is generated. In an ideal situation, the left and right wheels would generate equal and opposite moments, cancelling each other out, however in reality this is less likely to happen. Torque Steer is often incorrectly attributed to differing rates of twist along the lengths of unequal front drive shafts.

Hilg

 

[Emohawk]

Your clearer description disagrees with your first discription. I'll just believe the second one.

So would that be why FWD cars have such high positive offset wheels then? To move the steering point into closer alignment with the contact patch?

 

[JNasty4G63]

Ok, let me see if I can get this across any better. The driveshafts aren't the ONLY cause of torque steer. That clip from the Wiki didn't say that very well.

Torque Steer = (Sum of Forces on Left Front Tire) - (Sum of Forces on Right Front Tire)

The word "torque steer" is a bit of a misnomer because there are more forces than just the power to the front wheels or "torque" which can contribute to torque steer.

Ideally, the forces affecting each of the front tires are equal and cancel each other out resulting in no torque steer. However, in practice, it is not possible to achieve equal and countervailing forces on each of the front tires under all driving circumstances, so there is always some torque steer, but generally it's not enough to notice in a well designed AWD or RWD car, or even a FWD car if there is not too much power going to the front wheels.

By designing both sides of the car identical, you lessen these differences a bit, and help deaden the "torque steer" effect. By the sheer fact that the suspension is identical and mirrored on both sides, and the driveshafts the same length, the only thing varying is now is torque application from the dif and contact patch. Making a car with equal length shafts just takes one of the steps out of the problem.

Did that make more sense??? This is kind of like the engine sound thread. It all makes sense in my head, but getting it out takes some time and translation.

Hilg

 

[Joey D]

So in a nutshell, from what I got out of that was....The more things you can make the same on both sides of a car, the more factors you can take away from torque steer.

I knew was torque steer was but I hadn't had the slightest clue on was caused it.

You can sort of get it on really high powered rear drive cars to can't you? I mean my buddies Mustang Cobra ass kicks out under hard accleration. Couldn't that sort of be the same?

 

[Duke]

So in a nutshell, from what I got out of that was....The more things you can make the same on both sides of a car, the more factors you can take away from torque steer.

I knew was torque steer was but I hadn't had the slightest clue on was caused it.

You can sort of get it on really high powered rear drive cars to can't you? I mean my buddies Mustang Cobra ass kicks out under hard accleration. Couldn't that sort of be the same?

Actually, Hilg, your explanation was perfect. The Wikipedia entry claims that the halfshaft reason is incorrect, when in fact it's not. Unequal-length halfshafts are the most common cause of torque steer that is biased in one direction. The scrub radius - the distance between the steering pivot point and the center of the contact patch - is the direct cause of torque steer; they are correct. If the scrub radius was zero - if the front wheels pivoted on the center of the contact patch - then torque steer would not exist. However, that's not possible given the typical suspension design, since to make that happen the hub, steering knuckles, and control arms would all have to fit insid the rim.

So yes, torque steer is not directly caused by unequal halfshafts. However, a powerful FWD car will consistently pull to the side with the longer halfshaft because the extra length of the longer shaft allows the driveline on the shorter side to wind up a fraction of a second sooner, and deliver the power to the ground earlier.

On a car with equal-length halfshafts, this effect is removed from the equation, and it comes down to differences in traction at the contact patch of each wheel. Obviously engineers have no control over this issue.

Blazin', it's not quite the same effect. Because of the scrub radius, the tires on an FWD car will actually turn the steering wheel as they fight for traction. Obviously the rear wheels can't do that. However, as both back tires slip, they act unequally around the center of mass of the car and they may push it one way or the other. Since the back tires are spinning, they have lost traction and are not as resistant to lateral movement as the would be if they were rolling. The unequal drive force then causes the back end to step out toward the side that's pushing forward harder.

Also, having the back tires with no traction leaves the back end at the mercy of irregularities in the road surface, too.

 

[Emohawk]

Okay, I think that's about sunk in now. Thanks again, both of you. 👍
(Was I right about the wheel offset issue?)

 

[Blackbird.]

Thank You, Duke, for setting VipFREAK straight. We also have two neons one a '99 and the other a recently bought used '01 and they work fine. The only major problem was with the '99 and that was a blown headgasket.

 

[VIPFREAK]

Sorry... forgot the [sarcam][/sarcasm] codes.

 

[Driftster]

Has anyone here driven a modified neon SRT-4 (350hp + range)? Or even seen on on the street? That has got to be the least practical car i've ever seen in my life man. The SRT-10 makes for a more sensible purchase.
Loud LOUD LOUD
Backfires like craaazzzyy
and flames galore...

 

[JNasty4G63]

Has anyone here driven a modified neon SRT-4 (350hp + range)? Or even seen on on the street? That has got to be the least practical car i've ever seen in my life man. The SRT-10 makes for a more sensible purchase.

I've driven a buddy of mine's that has about 300whp or so. Its a Stage 2 car, with some more basic mods. Very fast, and very driveable. Yes, if you get into the boost, its a bit thirsty on gas, and a bit loud. But, just about everything is when tuned that fast. His is no louder than any other 4-cyl car with those types of mods. But, it handles them like a charm. Drives just like a stock car. But, once you get into the boost, it takes off like a raped ape. Not bad at all.

Loud LOUD LOUD
Backfires like craaazzzyy
and flames galore...

Sounds like my Talon. I can shoot flames with that thing like you wouldn't believe. Thats the fun of having a turbo car that runs rich. And, yes, its loud as well. But, thats mostly a result of having the wastegate VTA and running huge boost on a big turbo. The spool is loud, the BOV is loud, and the WG is loud. But, its a fun drive. Its my toy, so I can deal with it on random drives.

Hilg

 

[Blackbird.]

I've driven a buddy of mine's that has about 300whp or so. Its a Stage 2 car, with some more basic mods. Very fast, and very driveable. Yes, if you get into the boost, its a bit thirsty on gas, and a bit loud. But, just about everything is when tuned that fast. His is no louder than any other 4-cyl car with those types of mods. But, it handles them like a charm. Drives just like a stock car. But, once you get into the boost, it takes off like a raped ape. Not bad at all.

Sounds like my Talon. I can shoot flames with that thing like you wouldn't believe. Thats the fun of having a turbo car that runs rich. And, yes, its loud as well. But, thats mostly a result of having the wastegate VTA and running huge boost on a big turbo. The spool is loud, the BOV is loud, and the WG is loud. But, its a fun drive. Its my toy, so I can deal with it on random drives.

Hilg

Is it good sounding loud. I mean a car can be loud but it's got to sound good being loud. I love hearing the turbo hiss (don't know the technical term). Does it "hiss" very loud?

 

[JNasty4G63]

Is it good sounding loud. I mean a car can be loud but it's got to sound good being loud. I love hearing the turbo hiss (don't know the technical term). Does it "hiss" very loud?

That all depends on turbo and exhaust. My buddy just has the stock turbo on his SRT, and I believe the Mopar exhaust. The turbo spool, or "hiss" as you say, is somewhat loud, but not REAL loud. It sounds good. The exhaust sounds good as well. Its got a good sound, not to high pitched and tinny sounding. And, when you coast out a gear a little, it will pop and rumble real nice. Definately doesn't sound like a crappy poser exhaust, it sounds real good. But, those 2 items are the big factors in the sound.

My car has the Apexi GT downpipe and GT exhaust on it, with no cats on it. Its fairly loud, but in the same way as the SRT. Its loud, but in a good way. A turbo will actually quiet the exhaust a lot. Since all the exhaust has to go through the turbo on its way out the back, it will be fairly quiet. And, I have a big turbo running 28psi, so the spool up is very loud as well. And, with the wastegate running VTA, thats loud too. But, like I said before, its my toy, not a daily driver. So, I can deal with the sounds.

Hilg

 

[I6-4-eva]

That all depends on turbo and exhaust. My buddy just has the stock turbo on his SRT, and I believe the Mopar exhaust. The turbo spool, or "hiss" as you say, is somewhat loud, but not REAL loud. It sounds good. The exhaust sounds good as well. Its got a good sound, not to high pitched and tinny sounding. And, when you coast out a gear a little, it will pop and rumble real nice. Definately doesn't sound like a crappy poser exhaust, it sounds real good. But, those 2 items are the big factors in the sound.

My car has the Apexi GT downpipe and GT exhaust on it, with no cats on it. Its fairly loud, but in the same way as the SRT. Its loud, but in a good way. A turbo will actually quiet the exhaust a lot. Since all the exhaust has to go through the turbo on its way out the back, it will be fairly quiet. And, I have a big turbo running 28psi, so the spool up is very loud as well. And, with the wastegate running VTA, thats loud too. But, like I said before, its my toy, not a daily driver. So, I can deal with the sounds.

Hilg

Man you need to post some videos of your car

 

[German Muscle]

i thought i would clear some things up, first off Stage 1 is available for all year SRT4s, its a new ECU that richens the car up, takes away the CEL codes, and takes away boost cut, on 2003 models they gave injectors with the Stage 1 ECU, but the 2004 and 2005 models already have stage 1 injectors stock.
second. the Stage 3 turbo upgrade is the stock turbo with a TD05 exhaust wheel. This makes the turbo a little more efficient and will make more power. the stock turbos are TD04 turbine and 15G compressor. Its prolly one of the ****tiest turbos thats been put on a stock car. the mitsubishi 14b is a much better turbo. For the price of a Stage 3 mopar upgrade you can buy a AGP 50 Trim turbo kit. doesnt matter cause both void your warranty.

third. one of my real good friends has a black 05 SRT4, and my brother has a blue 04 SRT4. They both dynoed on the same day with the following mods
Black: AGP Wastegate Actuator, Greddy Profec B Spec 2 Electronic Boost Controller, Urethane Motor Mount Inserts, Modern Performance 3 inch turboback Stainless Exhaust with no cat on 93 octane pump gas
Blue: Mopar Stage 2 Upgrade with Toys, and a AGP Wastegate Actuator on turbo blue.

the Black one put down 264WHP SAE, while the Blue one put down 258WHP SAE while holding the high octane mode button and spraying the intercooler.

The black one has since got a Stage 1 ECU, Stage 2 injectors, AGP Garrett FMIC, and is about to put a SAFC on it to lean it down cause its extremely rich and backfires like crazy shooting flames.
The Blue one has since gotten a Greddy Profec B Spec 2 Boost controller, Modern Performance 3 inch stainless Turbo back exhaust with gutted cat, and is about to get a AGP FMIC.

And the SRT4s with the Modern Performance exhaust sound really nasty
Also the Black SRT has beaten a New Lancer Evo with all kinds of bolt ones and HKS 272s.

 

[inferno]

It's always nice when parts you put on your car come from the people who sold it to you. Sometimes it dosen't even void your warranty. But all in all, this is a mild kit. People have been getting 500 hp out of this engine.