Does patching Shift make it a Sim?

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machschnel
In anticipation of a patch from SMS, I was wondering what the game would actually be like. It seems that something realistic and detailed is hiding behind the bugs/lag, but until it gets patched, you can't be sure.

Maybe someone that has a bit more experience with physics engines/ computers can answer this - After a hypothetical patch (that fixes steering issues), where do you see Shift 2s physics ranking? Gran Turismo level? Grid level?
 
machschnel
In anticipation of a patch from SMS, I was wondering what the game would actually be like. It seems that something realistic and detailed is hiding behind the bugs/lag, but until it gets patched, you can't be sure.

Maybe someone that has a bit more experience with physics engines/ computers can answer this - After a hypothetical patch (that fixes steering issues), where do you see Shift 2s physics ranking? Gran Turismo level? Grid level?

for Me its more sim than gt5 already. so if patch does even more then its in a league of its own.
 
A simple patch isn't going to make the game any more realistic than it already is. Depending on how the code is written for Unleashed, it could be as simple as rewriting one or two lines of code in order to refresh the physic calculations at a more constant/demanding rate. Overdo it and you've introduced a new problem that won't be as easy as simply rewriting those two lines of code back to what they originally were. Or, it could be as difficult as having to rewrite everything.

The physics aren't going to change, at least not for Unleashed....which I still don't understand personally because it uses gMotor2, the same engine used in GTR, GTR2, GTR Evo, etc, etc....so either they're purposely crippling the calculations to maintain that 'instantly playable' perspective, or they're trying too hard to assist the game along the way.
 
for Me its more sim than gt5 already. so if patch does even more then its in a league of its own.

In what ways? I haven't bought Shift 2 and I'm debating whether or not I should. Any information in regards to physics would be very helpful.
 
which I still don't understand personally because it uses gMotor2, the same engine used in GTR, GTR2, GTR Evo, etc, etc....so either they're purposely crippling the calculations to maintain that 'instantly playable' perspective, or they're trying too hard to assist the game along the way.

This is what confuses me. In GTR2 you could set it up to drive very arcade-like or very realistic, so it's not as if it was inaccessible.
 
Anyone who calls this game arcadish has lost his mind. There is no way that the NFS crowd can get Shift 2 and start dominating.

It may not be iracing but it's in the zone between sim and simcade.
 
Doesn't even come close.

I agree, GT5 is no where near as realistic as Shift 2.

It's refreshing in Shift 2 to actually wreck when you know, wreck, and not just bounce of cars and walls like a pinball.

It's refreshing to have adaptive competition that no matter what car you're driving actually gives you a competitive race.

It's refreshing to have AI that actually knows you're out there rather than making laps like slot cars.

It's refreshing to have a car that actually makes you feel like you're driving fast, rather than just making you feel like you're going to puke because the cockpit shakes.

It's refreshing to have FFB that actually makes it feel like you're losing traction and your car is loose

It's refreshing to have a game that actually sounds like you're driving a car on a race track, with marbles under your car, dirt and rubber and grass coming from the car in front of you, stuff hitting your windshield, and FFB that gives you a different feel from what surface you're driving on.

And it's really refreshing to have your car get damaged when you roll over, crash into cars and walls, and you're engine letting go if you over rev, rather than being indestructible Hot Wheels that bounce like pinballs with no damage off of everything they hit....
 
Urgh. Note: this is my opinion from observations I've made and from time spent with modded Shift 1 and learning from others.
The engine running under Shift 2 is far more advanced than GT5 - suspension is wonderfully modelled, the tyre model is better and actually models tyre geometry. It's how they've adjusted the inputs for the user that is causing the problems. It seems to me they've toned the inputs down to make them smoother (slower?) for the casual user, even on Elite mode. I think this is because they know that even though they said Elite mode is targeted at wheel users, everyone playing regardless of what they're using switches to Elite mode with no assists because that makes them awesome and if they can't control the car in that mode something is wrong with the game. Unfortunately this is a result of what every console racing game allows.
I'd love them to remove the extra filters or whatever it is and allow the engine to fully shine.
 
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Anyone who calls this game arcadish has lost his mind. There is no way that the NFS crowd can get Shift 2 and start dominating.

It may not be iracing but it's in the zone between sim and simcade.

Not even remotely close to the zone you speak of; PGR, every last one of them has better physics than Unleashed, Burnout Paradise has better steering precision than Unleashed, Hot Pursuit actually calculates lateral grip to some degree, to a far greater extent than it appears to be calculated in anything other than the GT1 or GT3 cars. Anyone can get into Unleashed and start dominating - the X-Factor is the physics, once the average sees all the unnecessarily-pronounced sliding, directional steering shifts, and an almost complete lack of lateral grip...that's what will turn them away. Drifting in this game is the sorriest excuse of anything I've ever seen.
 
The physic model underneath Shift 2 is very good, just not totally optimized and fed with the correct data, once the lag is fix I think it is every bit as good as Forza 3 if not better in some areas.
 
Even though ive come to terms with the steering lag issue after trying diffrent settings, it would be nice to see them fix it so the steering feels accurate.

Other then that, i wouldnt see them change a thing in the gamephysics themselves.
I would however enjoy it if they added more realistic events. Not just one shot or a few events where some guy gives you his car for winning.

I wanna see point racing series of various classes and diciplines on the side of the official events. It would not be hard to incorporate, the ai, tracks and cars are already there, just put it all up in some persistent point acculumating events and ill shelf every other racing game i have.

Then put these series/leagues online and we have the best racing game ever produced.

I enjoy the game as is but the career events will get boring rather quickly and even though its fun chacing records on the autolog, it wont last too long either.
 
The physic model underneath Shift 2 is very good, just not totally optimized and fed with the correct data, once the lag is fix I think it is every bit as good as Forza 3 if not better in some areas.

It is optimized, but unfortunately towards the casual crowd, not the sim crowd :(

If they hadn't 'optimized' it, I think apart from the stuff unrelated to being in the car (pit stops, flag rules, race weekends etc) Shift 2 would be the best sim going around. But, gotta please the crowds that pay the bills :(

The only things I feel they need to fix is to tighten up the input delay (not lag because the game receives input immediately, it just takes too long to provide the turning response on consoles - I have PC ver and it's fine), most likely just by making tighter default setups and increasing steering angles. And there may be a bit too much grip under acceleration, which may be due to the throttle input being forced to be more progressive to make it more 'playable.'
 
This is more sim like to me aswell over GT5 just wish I could sort the straight line swaying out but apart from that it's a wicked game that i just can't leave alone... Bring on more cars and updates.
 
I put it back in its case sadly after 3 days of fiddling with the steering (DS3 user). The game has so much promise with the cars and tracks but I can't get the steering where I want it (floats, lags and fish-tails). When I do get out front I get punted by the AI cars. Oh well, I'll try after a patch I guess.
 
I hope (and actually assume) that the physics model just needs some tweaking of certain parameters, rather than a complete code rewrite. If these are the guys that made GTR they likely have implemented a rather sophisticated model for the car's behavior that they can tune to taste.

Regardless, once you 'unlearn' GT5 from your brain and start driving Shift in its own way the handling becomes predictable enough for me to really *thoroughly* enjoy this game.

I'm even voluntarily 'grinding' now... I keep replaying the D races to beat my friends' Autolog times with different cars and it's just so much fun that I completely forget to progress through my career. :)
 
I'm even voluntarily 'grinding' now... I keep replaying the D races to beat my friends' Autolog times with different cars and it's just so much fun that I completely forget to progress through my career. :)

:)

The "grinding" in this game is GREAT 👍 Im the same as you...love going back with different cars to try and beat friends times!
 
In anticipation of a patch from SMS, I was wondering what the game would actually be like. It seems that something realistic and detailed is hiding behind the bugs/lag, but until it gets patched, you can't be sure.

Maybe someone that has a bit more experience with physics engines/ computers can answer this - After a hypothetical patch (that fixes steering issues), where do you see Shift 2s physics ranking? Gran Turismo level? Grid level?

Patching doesn't necessarily push a game up to SIM level. However.., patching can certainly improve game play (and in some cases) so much that the patch can change consumer opinions in a very positive way.., thus increasing sales for the title.

What's not really being discussed here though is something that I think stands out. Has anyone else noticed that EA/SMS has literally repeated history with the release of Shift-2? They made the same mistakes with the release of Shift-2 as they did with Shift-1. MANY of the same problems that plagued Shift-1 upon release are present in Shift-2.

The same thing has happened again. Consumers were drawn in by the hype and all the pre-release videos.., and once again (like the previous title).., we find that Shift-2 isn't really living up to the hype.

I think there is a very good racing game hiding in Shift-2, but (just like in Shift-1).., Shift-2 may end up going down the road of the original title. The game certainly needs patching.., and patching IMO will certainly make the game much better and more enjoyable. However..., if EA/SMS don't get on the ball.., Shift-2 may suffer from the same poor rep that (till this day) looms over Shift-1.

Take one more thing into consideration. Shift-2 has been released within 2 years of Shift-1. Perhaps our expectations were a tad too high considering the resources EA/SMS may not be up to the level of other developer in the racing department.
 
I'm even voluntarily 'grinding' now... I keep replaying the D races to beat my friends' Autolog times with different cars and it's just so much fun that I completely forget to progress through my career. :)

Muhahahaha dude. You've got some catching up to do.
 
Muhahahaha dude. You've got some catching up to do.

Dude, you were on a rampage last night with all the record breaking! Looking forward to having another go at it when I get home. I still have to work on my l33t driving sk1llz :sly:

👍
 
If you take a theoretical list of racing games and sims.

iRacing = 10 and Test Drive Unlimited 2 is a 1. This is how i would rank the game compared to others on physics and driving model alone, in regards to being a simulator.

10. iRacing, Netkar Pro, Ferrari Virtual Academy.
9. LFS, Rfactor, RBR, GTR2
8. GT5
7.
6. Forza 3
5. Dirt 2, F1 2010
4. Shift 2
3. Grid
2.
1. Test Drive Unlimited 2

If they put in a patch fix it could possibly bump up alongside Dirt2/F1 2010 but the physics model lacks the complexity and depth to allow it to really compete with the real sims, it is not a simulation game. Shift 2 was not developed as a simulator and it isn't even close to being articulate enough to be modded/patched into one.
 
they put in a patch fix it could possibly bump up alongside Dirt2/F1 2010 but the physics model lacks the complexity and depth to allow it to really compete with the real sims, it is not a simulation game. Shift 2 was not developed as a simulator and it isn't even close to being articulate enough to be modded/patched into one.

How do you know? Just genuinely interested.

It seems the physics model of Shift is quite deep and complex, but the settings and parameters are obviously not set for realism. Doesn't mean they cannot be...

E.g. I can tweak things like tyre pressure in Shift. I can not do that in GT5. And things like tyre deformation are taken into account. Shift's model may not necessarily be shallower or simpler than GT5's.
 
I agree, GT5 is no where near as realistic as Shift 2.

It's refreshing in Shift 2 to actually wreck when you know, wreck, and not just bounce of cars and walls like a pinball.

It's refreshing to have adaptive competition that no matter what car you're driving actually gives you a competitive race.

It's refreshing to have AI that actually knows you're out there rather than making laps like slot cars.

It's refreshing to have a car that actually makes you feel like you're driving fast, rather than just making you feel like you're going to puke because the cockpit shakes.

It's refreshing to have FFB that actually makes it feel like you're losing traction and your car is loose

It's refreshing to have a game that actually sounds like you're driving a car on a race track, with marbles under your car, dirt and rubber and grass coming from the car in front of you, stuff hitting your windshield, and FFB that gives you a different feel from what surface you're driving on.

And it's really refreshing to have your car get damaged when you roll over, crash into cars and walls, and you're engine letting go if you over rev, rather than being indestructible Hot Wheels that bounce like pinballs with no damage off of everything they hit....

GT5's driving model is far more realistic than Shift 2, which is the absolute most important factor in a sim, other things are subjective.

1. I've crashed some cars in Shift 2 with some epic madness and the game just resets the car and i can continue racing, i've had some high speed crashes that didnt even damage my car. I don't often crash in racing games though, so this factor for me in GT5 is non existant, i know the licencing reasons that stopped them from creating wrecked cars.

2. I've never had a competitive racing in Shift 2, adaptive or not i still extremely unrealistically launch off like some drag mobile and beat the other cars to the first corner, on hard difficulty... how is that realistic? I agree though that the AI in GT5 are painfully slow.

3. GT5 had a patch not so long ago that addressed the AI and it made a huge difference, i've seen some epic AI crashes, especially at Nurburgring. In Shift 2 they do avoid you much like in GT5, but they also do crash into the back of you and swerve across the road, and try to block you while your approaching at a massive speed difference... this is absolutely stupid behavour that in real life would get you disqualified or possibly killed.

4. Marbles are cool if thats your thing, but some of the cars (especially mazda and retro Japanese cars) sound like 80s keyboard synths.. the engine sounds in Shift 2 are inconsistant with some cars sounding horrible and some sounding good. GT5s sound samples are not the most fantastic but it has by far the most powerful (and smoothest working) sound engine, the 2 games average out, considering all the horrible sounding cars in Shift 2. Tyre noises are also weak in Shift 2.



You can package a game up all you want, but a racing games core is its handling model, and Shift 2 is nowhere near GT5 in that area.
 
...I'd love them to remove the extra filters or whatever it is and allow the engine to fully shine.
All observations I've done points to a low pass filter on the steering wheel input. It can be demonstrated by simple experiments; e.g. there's 180 degrees phase shift and and reduced magnitude at ca. 0.8Hz. It's an absolutely crazy thing to do IMNSHO, and removing it could possibly make Sift 2 shine as a sim.

DJ
--
 
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GT5's driving model is far more realistic than Shift 2, which is the absolute most important factor in a sim, other things are subjective.

1. I've crashed some cars in Shift 2 with some epic madness and the game just resets the car and i can continue racing, i've had some high speed crashes that didnt even damage my car. I don't often crash in racing games though, so this factor for me in GT5 is non existant, i know the licencing reasons that stopped them from creating wrecked cars.

2. I've never had a competitive racing in Shift 2, adaptive or not i still extremely unrealistically launch off like some drag mobile and beat the other cars to the first corner, on hard difficulty... how is that realistic? I agree though that the AI in GT5 are painfully slow.

3. GT5 had a patch not so long ago that addressed the AI and it made a huge difference, i've seen some epic AI crashes, especially at Nurburgring. In Shift 2 they do avoid you much like in GT5, but they also do crash into the back of you and swerve across the road, and try to block you while your approaching at a massive speed difference... this is absolutely stupid behavour that in real life would get you disqualified or possibly killed.

4. Marbles are cool if thats your thing, but some of the cars (especially mazda and retro Japanese cars) sound like 80s keyboard synths.. the engine sounds in Shift 2 are inconsistant with some cars sounding horrible and some sounding good. GT5s sound samples are not the most fantastic but it has by far the most powerful (and smoothest working) sound engine, the 2 games average out, considering all the horrible sounding cars in Shift 2. Tyre noises are also weak in Shift 2.



You can package a game up all you want, but a racing games core is its handling model, and Shift 2 is nowhere near GT5 in that area.

Did you just slag the AI, damage and sound in Shift when comparing to GT5?

Seriously that is some ****ed up ****! haha
 
1. I've crashed some cars in Shift 2 with some epic madness and the game just resets the car and i can continue racing, i've had some high speed crashes that didnt even damage my car. I don't often crash in racing games though, so this factor for me in GT5 is non existant, i know the licencing reasons that stopped them from creating wrecked cars.

While I generally agree with a lot of what you said, if the game reset your car it's because damage wasn't turned on. If damage is on and you total your car you basically sit there until you restart the race yourself.
 
How do you know? Just genuinely interested.

It seems the physics model of Shift is quite deep and complex, but the settings and parameters are obviously not set for realism. Doesn't mean they cannot be...

E.g. I can tweak things like tyre pressure in Shift. I can not do that in GT5. And things like tyre deformation are taken into account. Shift's model may not necessarily be shallower or simpler than GT5's.

I know because of how the tyres appear to work, because of the way the handling model reacts to certain situations. I've played almost every racing sim or semi sim out there and i have some racing experience of my own (albiet karting).

The game needs to patch the following things.

1. Tyres need to act more independantly, despite having data showing which tyres are getting hot and are under load, you still see things happenning that almost points to that being a visual display not connected to how the tyres actually work... Sometimes it feels like you're driving on one big fat tyre. Take the situation of going onto the throttle, not enough weight is transfered from the front wheels to the back, it feels like the car is always planted in that centre of gravity.

2. Points of rotation, there appears to be a smaller range in maximum motion to which the wheels can move along, giving the feeling that the car lacks pinpoint accuracy, many other semi-sim and arcade type games feel like this. Compare it to the feeling that you're steering the car rather than the tyres, a good tyre model will feel like you're actually manipulating the tyres to turn the corner rather than just turning the wheel to steer the car.

3. Grip - The effects of throttle and tyre load under lateral G-force seems to be very minimal with some oversteer effects appearing to feel slightly triggered (hello Grid) rather than transitional/real time. Being able to go full throttle before halfway through a corner in a Shelby Cobra without crapping yourself or driving into a wall is not realistic.

4. Setup - I've played with the setups and it makes such a small difference to how a car feels, there just doesn't seem to be enough depth to the game that many of the cars feel massively similar and setup changes do not give the desired results. I put massive rear toe on a car (Mclaren F1) and had absolutely no understeer under throttle on corner exit... the car should have been nearly stuck in a straight line under throttle with that ammount of toe, a heavy understeer setup and the car still drove mostly the same.

5. Auto-Countersteer - An invisible driving aid that strangely doesn't aid the driving at all, takes away the need for countersteering or drastically reduces the ammount that is needed, causing proper driving to give undesired results. If this can be turned off somehow then the game would become much more realistic.

6. Input lag - This attributes a lot to the floaty and laggy feels of the cars, this being fixed would help massively

7. Drift mode - A seperate physics model points to the fact that the original physics and tyre models are not capable of coping with setups that would allow drifting. In GT5/iRacing/Rfactor/LFS there is only 1 physics model and with setup/skillful driving drifting just as in real life is perfectly doable.



In regards to the sounds in Shift 2. Buy a Mazda Mx5 or an RX7, but be careful your ears might bleed. In regards to damage in Shift 2 - sure it is fantastic, one of the best damage systems i have seen in a game and totally beats GT5, my point is that i don't crash often and i don't care for damage systems for that reason, driving/physics model for me is everything. As for the AI - yeah I wasn't impressed at all, they are slow and slightly rubberbanded, they are stupid and dangerous. If you read my post i actually said GT5 Ai are slow as ****, which is true but since being patched they are not so stupid anymore.

Edit : Might be that i have sensitive ears, i have been recording sound and music for over 10 years and studied Music technology and sound engineering at university. Sound engines, samples and recordings are things that i have had to analyse, create and study. If you read my post i said that the sounds are inconsistant. Some of the cars in Shift 2 sound fantastic, but some of the cars also sound much worse than anything in GT5. Consistancy is king, GT5 sounds are average, though the sound engine powering it is amazing, they just haven't used it to its full potencial. Shift 2 sound engine is much simpler and similar to what is used in many other games, it is good enough and they have done a great job with a lot of cars, i love the sound of some of the retro muscle cars.

But damn... some cars sound absolutely shockingly bad, lowest quality crap i've heard in a long time.
 
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