DTM: Is it possible that silhouette cars from DTM (Class 1 Touring Cars) will be added in GT7?

  • Thread starter BrunusCL82
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My idea would be to have made-for-game Gr.2 cars, but based on different models entirely. For example, instead of the BMW M4 DTM, there could be a Gr.2 car modeled on the newer BMW M8 or Z4. They could even do this for automakers that don't have a real-world GT500/DTM car, like McLaren.
Don't see why not, PD would only be going back to their fictional LM car roots using this method. I appreciate fictional GT500 cars could be unmarked territory for PD's 'design team. As a notion I bet this is even something PD have thought about, but most likely are being barred by licensing again? I don't know what conditions were agreed to when designing LM cars for previous games though. Did they perhaps get manufacturer representatives to assist during the designs, or just acquire a representatives consent for PD to design it themselves?
At least for now it's being similarly applied to some cars in the Gr.4 and Gr.3 classes. There are some sims that don't even have a GT3 inspired Mustang and F-type racer, or GT4 inspired RC-F and C7 race car(would suit the Camaro better but still), and that just feels, well awesome.
This would be the better method, IMO, to boosting the car numbers in Gr.2 without duplicates i.e. alternative liveries (a car count boosting method of which I think has been rightfully made redundant by Liver editor) but actual varying brands and or marks. If it were to ever see fruition I'd suggest PD stick to one performance bracket target and just use the current GT500 class design regs since fictional LM cars were based on the current modern era race cars at the time, which were generally either inspired by GT2, GTU/GTO, GTS and GT1 classes.
Even touring cars that PD created have embodied the 'LM project', the Honda CR-Z and Prius TC's to name a couple.
 
I feel that now that we know the Alfa Romeo 155 TI is going to be in Gr.4, that would likely mean that any other early-90s DTMeisterschaft cars like the Mercedes-Benz 190E Evo II would also be in Gr.4. I don't think that necessarily means that other DTM cars will be in Gr.4, especially if they're more modern like the entires from Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Aston Martin, and BMW. I also remain curious about the two JGTC GT500 cars we've seen as confirmed so far, as they're from the other end of the decade. Especially since they were seen racing with that Alfa Romeo, so we don't know if that was just for promotional purposes, or if that'll imply that both the Nissan Skyline GT-R GT500 and the Toyota Supra GT500 will be in Gr.4 as well.
I once read around here that PD, legally and currently, could only add one car from each league, with PD make a direct deal with the automaker. But, if the PD added more than one car from the league it would already invade the sphere of interests of the league, so to have two DTM cars in the game it should already have the permission of the German league. I don't know if that's right. Anyway, if the 155 V8 was added, it would be interesting for your opponents to be too, from '93 and '94 seasons.

  • BMW M3 E36 DTM '94
  • Opel Calibra V6 DTM '94
  • Mercedes 190E Evo II DTM '94
  • Ford Mustang DTM '94
  • Audi 80 B4 Turbo DTM Prototype '94

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I once read around here that PD, legally and currently, could only add one car from each league, with PD make a direct deal with the automaker. But, if the PD added more than one car from the league it would already invade the sphere of interests of the league, so to have two DTM cars in the game it should already have the permission of the German league. I don't know if that's right. Anyway, if the 155 V8 was added, it would be interesting for your opponents to be too, from '93 and '94 seasons.

  • BMW M3 E36 DTM
  • Ford Mustang DTM
  • Opel Calibra V6 DTM
  • Mercedes 190E Evo II DTM

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Thing is, we had what, six(seven) DTM cars?

Alfa 155 V6
AMG 190E
AMG CLK DTM
Audi A4 DTM(Red Bull)
Audi TT DTM(Red Bull)
Lexus DTM(not an official DTM homologated Lexus though)
Opel/Vauxhall Calibra DTM
Edit: Opel/Vauxhall Vectra DTM

Maybe they can still use these.
 
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I once read around here that PD, legally and currently, could only add one car from each league, with PD make a direct deal with the automaker. But, if the PD added more than one car from the league it would already invade the sphere of interests of the league, so to have two DTM cars in the game it should already have the permission of the German league. I don't know if that's right. Anyway, if the 155 V8 was added, it would be interesting for your opponents to be too, from '93 and '94 seasons.

  • BMW M3 E36 DTM
  • Ford Mustang DTM
  • Opel Calibra V6 DTM
  • Mercedes 190E Evo II DTM

View attachment 1149215View attachment 1149216
View attachment 1149217View attachment 1149218
I think of those particular cars, I’d really like the 190E, especially since it was in previous GT games.
 
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Considering the addition of a new DTM car to GT7, I did some thinking to suggest how PD could work the addition of new German league cars.

Yesterday I was running some DTM season lap time searches to see where DTM cars from the 90's and 2000's could be categorized in the Polyphony groups - Gr.2, Gr.3 and Gr.4.

From 1993, Class 1 cars were introduced, with the intention of using carbon fiber chassis instead of metal bodies. 2.5-liter V6 engines were used and would develop up to 500 bhp. Both Alfa Romeo and Opel used all-wheel drive.

Gr.4 Cars

Polyphony classifies the AR 155 V6 from the 1993 season in the Gr.4 category. It is a very correct classification in my opinion, because DTM '93 raced at Donington GP Circuit and scored pole position in 1:35.09 and, in 2022, the Mercedes AMG GT4 set the category record with a time of 1:34.856. The GT3 record at Donington was set in 2022 by the McLaren 720S GT3 with a time of 1:26.309. Therefore, there is no reason to question the correct decision of the PD.

In 1993, Audi developed a Class 1 Audi 80 but decided not to use the car in the DTM championship. In any case, it would be entirely possible to add Alfa Romeo's fifth partner. In 1994, BMW replaced the M3 E30 with the M3 E36, AR's sixth partner. The 1994 season cars saw little improvement in performance compared to last season, just two seconds at Donington.

In view of this, Polyphony could bring the season partners of the AR 155 V6 Ti '93 to Gr.4. And they are:

  • BMW M3 Sport Evo DTM '93 (Gr.4)
  • Mercedes 190E 2.5-16 DTM '93 (Gr.4)
  • Opel Omega 3000 24v Evolution 500 3.8 DTM '93 (Gr.4)
  • Ford Mustang 5.0 GT DTM '93 (Gr.4)
  • Audi 80 B4 Turbo Competition Prototype DTM '93 (Gr.4)
  • BMW M3 E36 DTM '94 (Gr.4)

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Gr.3 Cars

Something that caught my attention is that the performances of the cars from the 1993 and 1996 seasons are very different, although some cars are nominally the same.

In 1995, the DTM went international with the parallel competition called ITC. The cars from the 1995 and 1996 DTM-ITC seasons, especially the 1996 ones, far outperformed the cars from the 1993 and 1994 seasons. Schneider with the Mercedes C-Class set a time of 1:30.44 at Donington.

Donington was not part of the 1996 DTM-ITC calendar. So I took the Mugello circuit as a reference. This season, with the improved version of the AR 155 V6, Larini set the pole position lap with 1:47.732. The GT3 record at Mugello was set in 2017 by the Lamborghini Huracán GT3 with a time of 1:47.017. In 2011, the 2000s GT1 Salleen S7-R (cars with performance similar to today's GT3) clocked a lap time of 1:49.112. And, by way of comparison, the GT4 record was set in 2019 by the BMW M4 with a time of 1:58.811.

By the way, the wonderful Mercedes C-Class debuted in the 1994 season, but its performances in the following seasons were worthy of a modern GT3 car. The car would not fit well into the Gr.4 category. I suppose it is correct to adhere to the same reasoning for the Opel Calibra V6 4x4. So, personally, I think it's more appropriate to put both in the Gr.3 category.

That said, the 1996 cars could perfectly suit the Gr.3 category of Gran Turismo.
  • Opel Calibra V6 4x4 DTM-ITC '96 (Gr.3)
  • Alfa Romeo 155 V6 TI DTM-ITC '96 (Gr.3)
  • Mercedes C-Class DTM-ITC '96 (Gr.3)

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Due to poor media exposure and television coverage, the lack of spectators visiting the tracks and huge investments by the teams, Alfa Romeo and Opel announced in September 1997 that they would leave the series. As Mercedes-Benz remained as the sole competitor, the ITC series was then cancelled. In 2000 the DTM celebrated a comeback, featuring much cheaper touring cars.

Taking reference to the fast laps on the Sachsenring track (with layout since 2001), this new generation of DTM cars did 1:21.221 in 2002 with the Opel Astra DTM. The GT3 record on this track is from the year 2017 with a lap time of 1:18.603 made by the Mercedes-AMG GT3.

By the way, in 2003 DTM returns to Donington with this three new cars, which was great for benchmarking performance between generations. Schneider took pole position with the Mercedes CLK with a time of 1:28.206, therefore, a lap time similar to the GT3 record at this track which is 1:26.309 done in 2022.
  • AMG-Mercedes CLK-DTM '02 (Gr.3)
  • Abt-Audi TT-R '02 (Gr.3)
  • Opel Astra V8 Coupé '02 (Gr.3)

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These cars were already in Gran Turismo 4, 5 and 6.

Gr.2 Cars

In 2004, the second generation of DTM cars from the 2000s began to appear: Opel Vectra GTS V8 DTM, AMG-Mercedes C-Class DTM and Audi A4 Turbo DTM. This generation started to perform much better than the cars mentioned above. In 2005, the DTM raced in Brno, and the AMG-Mercedes C-Class took pole position with a time of 1:52.191. The GT3 record at Brno is 2:01.012, set in 2016 by Lamborghini Huracán. It's ten seconds apart. Therefore, it is very difficult to fit cars from the second half of the 2000s into the Gr.3 category. It would be necessary to do a very aggressive BoP work, which particularly would not work satisfactorily.

On a track shorter than Brno, the GT3 Hockenheim record is 1:38.061 beaten in 2019 by the Mercedes-AMG GT3. With Hockenheimring as a reference, the 2005 DTM took pole position with 1:35.251. In 2008, the pole was set in 1:33.576. In 2013, 1:33.443. In 2018 the pole time was 1:32.379. So, basically, there haven't been any major changes to the DTM. Those three cars from 2005 keep performance similar to the DTM cars that succeeded them in the next thirteen seasons, varying in a few seconds the performance.

The only solution would be to fit these cars into the Gr.2. Well, but between haves and don'ts, of course we would prefer PD to bring the DTM cars from these thirteen seasons 2005-2018 and try to fit them in Gr.2, along with the old Super GT500s from the 2008 season, running together, in a 2008 Class 1 Private Championship or a Dream Race with the 2008 DTM-SuperGT cars in Sport Mode.

The Lexus DTM prototype, which was unveiled at the 2008 Tokyo Motorshow and which appeared in Gran Turismo 6, could also be added to Gr.2 to race cars from the 2008 Super GT and DTM seasons.

These cars would be:
  • Opel Vectra GTS V8 DTM '05 (Gr.2)
  • AMG-Mercedes C-Class W204 DTM '08 (Gr.2)
  • Audi A4 Turbo DTM '08 (Gr.2)
  • Lexus IS F Racing Concept '08 (Gr.2)

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The big change came in 2019 with the addition of Class 1 regulations with the Super GT. The 2019 race at Hock was in the rain, so lap times are out. In 2020, the DTM pole at Hock was 1:28.337, four to six seconds below the cars of the past thirteen seasons.

Taking into account the addition of the Audi RS5 DTM '19, which in GT7 will run in Gr.2 along with the Super GTs '16 and eventually with new Japanese cars to be added (I believe that!), PD could add the others two cars remainder of the 2019 DTM season, the BMW and Aston Martin.

And I think that bringing the AMG-Mercedes C63 DTM '18 would also be possible, as long as the car had a BoP work to increase power and make the rear wing replacement available in GT Auto. In addition, PD could create dummy cars for the Gr.2 based on the silhouettes of the 2019 DTM-Super GT, such as the Alfa Romeo, Ford, Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet and Opel below. After all, if PD did it in Gr.3 there's nothing to stop it from doing it in Gr.2.

These are the cars:
  • Aston Martin Vantage DTM '19 (Gr.2)
  • BMW M4 Turbo DTM '19 (Gr.2)
  • Mercedes-AMG C-Coupé C63 DTM '18 (Gr.2)
  • Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Gr.2 Race Car Concept
  • Ford Mustang Gr.2 Race Car Concept
  • Buick Enclave Gr.2 Race Car Concept
  • Cadillac ATS Gr.2 Race Car Concept
  • Chevrolet Camaro Gr.2 Race Car Concept
  • Opel Insignia Gr.2 Race Car Concept
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  • Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Gr.2 Race Car Concept
  • Ford Mustang Gr.2 Race Car Concept
  • Cadillac ATS Gr.2 Race Car Concept
Also worth noting that, for rFactor 2, BMW did make a fantasy Class One version of the "pignose" BMW M4:
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Other proposals I had in mind:
  • Subaru BRZ Gr.2 (would be just a more aerodynamic version of the BRZ GT300, though)
  • Genesis X GR2 (would be just a more aerodynamic version of the X GR3, though)
  • Chevrolet Corvette C8 Gr.2 or Chevrolet Camaro Gr.2 (I am of opinion that the Next Gen NASCAR Cup cars could be "forced" into Gr.2, though)
 
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NFS Heat also had a dtm style bodykit for the BMW I8.

These dtm what if concepts are great would work well in racing games since its not real life.

The Alfa Romeo Guilia DTM will never happen but videogames allow it to happen.
 
Read this:


It is understood that the dream of Masaaki Bandoh, the CEO of Super GT, was to create a new Class 1 category of world scale. A new version of ITC with nine cars, with three German, three Japanese and three American automakers.

In my opinion, I believe that success would be guaranteed, as long as it maintained the DTM formula, one driver per car and short races. It's a form that is more digestible for the casual audience, due to Formula 1's established culture in every corner of the world.

That said, I think Polyphony could join this idea of bringing Class 1. It would create three fictional American cars (Ford, GM and Chrysler), bring the three 2019 DTM cars, plus a fictional Mercedes car and two more cars fictional UK cars such as Jaguar and Bentley, plus three real Super GT cars. We would then have twelve cars, japanese, american, british and german.

At first, I see no impediment to this, because PD created a universe of fictional Gr.3 cars.
 
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It was a great idea too.

So it was Super GT's idea to partner with DTM on Class 1 regs? It's just unfortunate that Germany hates motorsport these days which is wild because all their brands are addicted to performance. Fortunately, Super GT is very successful in Japan so that seems to be doing well. I think it could be successful in the US to - the Mustang is an obvious choice of car, and the Camaro would've been if GM could manage to sell any of them. Plus, it could help Chevy and Ford push their small turbo engines and perhaps hybrid systems. Australian Supercars could be brought into the fold but honestly that is such a good formula already I think it should just stay that way.
 
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Don't see why not, PD would only be going back to their fictional LM car roots using this method. I appreciate fictional GT500 cars could be unmarked territory for PD's 'design team. As a notion I bet this is even something PD have thought about, but most likely are being barred by licensing again? I don't know what conditions were agreed to when designing LM cars for previous games though. Did they perhaps get manufacturer representatives to assist during the designs, or just acquire a representatives consent for PD to design it themselves?
At least for now it's being similarly applied to some cars in the Gr.4 and Gr.3 classes. There are some sims that don't even have a GT3 inspired Mustang and F-type racer, or GT4 inspired RC-F and C7 race car(would suit the Camaro better but still), and that just feels, well awesome.
This would be the better method, IMO, to boosting the car numbers in Gr.2 without duplicates i.e. alternative liveries (a car count boosting method of which I think has been rightfully made redundant by Liver editor) but actual varying brands and or marks. If it were to ever see fruition I'd suggest PD stick to one performance bracket target and just use the current GT500 class design regs since fictional LM cars were based on the current modern era race cars at the time, which were generally either inspired by GT2, GTU/GTO, GTS and GT1 classes.
Even touring cars that PD created have embodied the 'LM project', the Honda CR-Z and Prius TC's to name a couple.
Group 2 would've been the perfect class for their basically useless "Group X" VGT cars.
 
Group 2 would've been the perfect class for their basically useless "Group X" VGT cars.
It would have been perfect if PD had agreed, in advance, with the automakers a specification standard for VGT cars to fit in Gr.2 or Gr.1, having as reference the technologically feasible racing cars, like DTM/Super GT, modern GT1 cars or the last DPi or LMP1 cars from WEC and IMSA. Mazda, McLaren and Hyundai have even adopted this idea, I presume.

But with unlimited freedom, it declined into debauchery, creating a pile of useless monsters, toy cars worthy of hot wheels and dystopian cyberpunk movies. Missed opportunity.
 
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