Dyno tuning?

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Nikk O'lass
Just a thought...


What if GT6 had the ability to fine tune an engine? Rather then just bolting on a sports ECU, what about the option of a tune able unit.

You would run the car on the dyno, adjust timing, fuel rations etc to better suit the "bolt on" nature of the current upgrade system.
 
Just a thought...


What if GT6 had the ability to fine tune an engine? Rather then just bolting on a sports ECU, what about the option of a tune able unit.

You would run the car on the dyno, adjust timing, fuel rations etc to better suit the "bolt on" nature of the current upgrade system.

👍👍👍
 
Something like nfs underground 2 had .. I don't like when other games copy each other but I would love to see gt6 copy that though
 
Just a thought...


What if GT6 had the ability to fine tune an engine? Rather then just bolting on a sports ECU, what about the option of a tune able unit.

You would run the car on the dyno, adjust timing, fuel rations etc to better suit the "bolt on" nature of the current upgrade system.

GT6 probably won't.
but GT7 on the PS4 has a high chance for things like this
 
GT5's current "bolt-on" style of upgrading assumes optimum horsepower tuning, but I'd be interested to see how a dyno tuning ability could change the way these cars run on a simulated track instead of the outdated NFSU2 layouts. The ability to modify fuel/air mixture, adjust timing for different bolt-ons, changing the CCs of the heads, and different port-matching layouts for intake/heads combo. Along with choosing a custom grind camshaft.

These would be epic ideas for a dyno section, but the run-of-the-mill gamer/racer wouldn't realize how much these would affect horsepower and might not bother with them.
 
I would like to a better and more detailed upgrade and tuning system for sure. Also would like to be able to save the tunes to a file of my choosing allowing me to have as many setups as I want for a car and name them according to the class and/or track they are tuned for.

A dyno would be a good addition but NFS is a poor example of tuning options as they were very limited. I'd like to see something more like GTR2 in the tuning department combined with an expanded set of realistic upgrade options.
 
This would be a great option and would certainly love to see it in the Gran Turismo on PS4.

I don't know too much but I'm pretty sure it should also be able to change the car's idle sound too, aswell as make automatic gear changes snappier, and save fuel.
 
There is no need to run a dyno, it would just be annoying like having to sit through a wind tunnel animation. Just take the powercurve and mold it how you want it.
 
The "dyno tuning" session for Need For Speed was absolutely ridiculous.

In real life, engine-mapping isn't that simple, and the artificial compromises that arise in setting your powerband aren't there in real life. When you fix the crappy stock power curve in one area by remapping the ignition and fuel values, they don't cause a loss of power elsewhere. When I first used it, I laughed out loud.

It's like giving people a choice of infinite camshaft grinds or turbo trims and re-labelling it "engine mapping", because nobody would understand the former adjustments.

Real life engine mapping is too complex and comprehensive for a simple video game, and the gains from fiddling with it after the fact would be too small to be worth the players' effort.

Having the ability to switch engine maps for extra power (leaner fuel maps, more aggressive timing), extra reliability (run richer, less aggressive) or extra economy (run extra lean but dial back power) would be fun for longer races... and dialling in anti-lag (leave the throttle plate slightly open when the player "lifts off"), virtual launch control (retard the timing at specific launch rpm when the clutch is in) and gear-specific detuning (something sorely lacking from GT5 for cars that had it in real life) would be nice... but I can't see how such a system could be seamlessly implemented into a simple game like this.


*Don't get me started on supplementary maps for secondary injectors, alcohol injection, ultra-lean burn, secondary ignition and fuel maps for high boost modes...
 
they should bring the dyno back. Which GT had one? I can't remember, was it GT2? ANyway, things like this should never be taken out, why remove features from series, especially a series that is supposed to be a "simulation"?

Bring the Dyno back.
 
You already have a power chart which is effectively a dyno plot and shows graphically the effect on adding new parts to the power curves. Not sure why having a dyno and having to run your car on it would be a benefit?
 
Maybe just have selectable map characteristics like shifting power from mid rpm to high rpm. I dont think most peaple would even know where to start when mapping a car. Even with a base map to start with it will take to long
 
Maybe just have selectable map characteristics like shifting power from mid rpm to high rpm. I dont think most peaple would even know where to start when mapping a car. Even with a base map to start with it will take to long

Have a similar system to what the gearbox has. Have a preset option, then a fully customizable option. You could have a few presets like Max fuel Economy, Max power and balanced and then you could fine tune with the fully customizable to make the most of the situation like adjusting to cover turbo lag and what not. Id be happy for actual ECU tuning though.
 
niky
The "dyno tuning" session for Need For Speed was absolutely ridiculous.

In real life, engine-mapping isn't that simple, and the artificial compromises that arise in setting your powerband aren't there in real life. When you fix the crappy stock power curve in one area by remapping the ignition and fuel values, they don't cause a loss of power elsewhere. When I first used it, I laughed out loud.

It's like giving people a choice of infinite camshaft grinds or turbo trims and re-labelling it "engine mapping", because nobody would understand the former adjustments.

Real life engine mapping is too complex and comprehensive for a simple video game, and the gains from fiddling with it after the fact would be too small to be worth the players' effort.

Having the ability to switch engine maps for extra power (leaner fuel maps, more aggressive timing), extra reliability (run richer, less aggressive) or extra economy (run extra lean but dial back power) would be fun for longer races... and dialling in anti-lag (leave the throttle plate slightly open when the player "lifts off"), virtual launch control (retard the timing at specific launch rpm when the clutch is in) and gear-specific detuning (something sorely lacking from GT5 for cars that had it in real life) would be nice... but I can't see how such a system could be seamlessly implemented into a simple game like this.

*Don't get me started on supplementary maps for secondary injectors, alcohol injection, ultra-lean burn, secondary ignition and fuel maps for high boost modes...

I agree with what you're saying pal but you have to remember it's just a game which is just for FUN! It would be awesome to have maps, yeah it's not as simple in real life, but it's only a game and they should bring this feature to GT6 and develop it further onto GT7 👍
 
I think a simplified dyno tuning mode would be super fun. They could model the whole garage and machine, show computer graphs, etc. the only thing to spoil it would be the engine sounds. Hearing the engine rev is one of the coolest aspects, along with pops and backfires. It's a great idea with a lot of potential, and I think the ability to further add your own touch to your own car would be fantastic. There's no reason to get crazy with it - in fact, tuning in the game Automation is rather simple but thorough. It can be difficult if you make it difficult.
 
You see, if Polyphony Digital did that, it'd probably take them another year at the rate they work, so it probably won't happen. I'm wondering, what if there was a trading system built in, where you would select a car/item/cash amount to trade, as well as the other person, but you couldnt trade cash for cash, so that someone cant cheat and trade 1 credit for 1 million credits? It would make online trading fair so that someone doesnt cheat. Also, there should be a fair way online to do drag races, like a function of Route X, where the computer makes sure that both people start at the same time, and that the end result is fair, and mabye add pink slip racing. Also, you should be able to buy paints at the tuning shop, and make visible damage affect performance. What do you guys think???:D
:gtplanet: JDB3326OFFICIAL IS OUT :gtplanet:
 
I think it would be a great addition to be able to fine tune the power curve a little through the dyno but I don't think you'll see that in the GT series. A little too in depth for the guys that avoid most "depth"...lol.
 
It would be a great option though. It wouldn't be required, but if you wanna fine tune that last little bit I think it would be great.
 


...Real life engine mapping is too complex and comprehensive for a simple video game, and the gains from fiddling with it after the fact would be too small to be worth the players' effort.

Having the ability to switch engine maps for extra power (leaner fuel maps, more aggressive timing), extra reliability (run richer, less aggressive) or extra economy (run extra lean but dial back power) would be fun for longer races... and dialling in anti-lag (leave the throttle plate slightly open when the player "lifts off"), virtual launch control (retard the timing at specific launch rpm when the clutch is in) and gear-specific detuning (something sorely lacking from GT5 for cars that had it in real life) would be nice... but I can't see how such a system could be seamlessly implemented into a simple game like this...

As I disagree with it not being worth the effort, as many drag tuners like myself will spend hours on a transmission for absolute acceleration, if someone spends the time to map out a superior fuel/air mixture, then they will have an overall advantage to power in the race when running identical cars. More pull in the straights, higher entry and exit speeds in the corners, etc.

I do agree, however, that they could use preset fuel maps for more power or better MPG to make a difference in endurance races. Or have the opportunity to dive into the fuel mapping in a "customize" option, or "reset" option if they get in over their head. Some racers can't even tune a transmission properly, so I'd assume some wouldn't understand how more/less fuel would affect the response in the engine.
 
It's not worth it in the sense that there will be a "best" fuel / ignition map for a given fuel in given atmospheric conditions... and to artificially handicap the car by giving it a substandard map to force players to dyno-tune could turn casual players off.

This is different from gearbox tuning, as you have stock gearboxes, and then you have an unrealistic infinitely adjustable gearset with the racing option. (No, I didn't say to take it away! :lol: )

For drag racers and advanced tuners, you could stand to benefit by tuning the torque curve at low rpm for a better launch or better traction in lower gears. But for getting more power out of the car, not really... not in a game.
 
Something like nfs underground 2 had .. I don't like when other games copy each other but I would love to see gt6 copy that though

I think this is the only game I ever played that had the ability to tune specifically like that. always thought it was a good idea and am consistently surprised nobody else fine-tuned the idea.
 
This is different from gearbox tuning, as you have stock gearboxes, and then you have an unrealistic infinitely adjustable gearset with the racing option. (No, I didn't say to take it away! :lol: )
Definitely need to leave that one :)

I have never been able to understand why racing games GT and Forza specifically but there are others do not either give us the option to purchase a rear diff with different gearing ratios or make the race diff ratio adjustable as part of the diff settings.

Changing the Ring and Pinion set is a quick and somewhat easy way to alter the final drive of a car without changing the trans. Just hard to believe I have not saw that option in any of the racers I have played.
 
or make the race diff ratio adjustable as part of the diff settings.

For better or worse, the differential ratio is accessed through the gearbox (as the final drive ratio), not the diff. And yes, you have to buy a fully adjustable gearbox to get it.
 
The "dyno tuning" session for Need For Speed was absolutely ridiculous.

In real life, engine-mapping isn't that simple, and the artificial compromises that arise in setting your powerband aren't there in real life. When you fix the crappy stock power curve in one area by remapping the ignition and fuel values, they don't cause a loss of power elsewhere. When I first used it, I laughed out loud.

It's like giving people a choice of infinite camshaft grinds or turbo trims and re-labelling it "engine mapping", because nobody would understand the former adjustments.

Real life engine mapping is too complex and comprehensive for a simple video game, and the gains from fiddling with it after the fact would be too small to be worth the players' effort.

Having the ability to switch engine maps for extra power (leaner fuel maps, more aggressive timing), extra reliability (run richer, less aggressive) or extra economy (run extra lean but dial back power) would be fun for longer races... and dialling in anti-lag (leave the throttle plate slightly open when the player "lifts off"), virtual launch control (retard the timing at specific launch rpm when the clutch is in) and gear-specific detuning (something sorely lacking from GT5 for cars that had it in real life) would be nice... but I can't see how such a system could be seamlessly implemented into a simple game like this.


*Don't get me started on supplementary maps for secondary injectors, alcohol injection, ultra-lean burn, secondary ignition and fuel maps for high boost modes...

dam bro maybe you should stop by pd and give a hand with the dyno tuning . I know the nfs system was flawed but it an ok attempt at it.
 
You already have a power chart which is effectively a dyno plot and shows graphically the effect on adding new parts to the power curves. Not sure why having a dyno and having to run your car on it would be a benefit?

it doesn't show what the after effects are going to be so when u do a engine stage u have no idea what your new power band is going to be
 
and to artificially handicap the car by giving it a substandard map to force players to dyno-tune could turn casual players off.
That's not how it works in real life. Before cars were smart enough to tune themselves the engine would get all out of whack as you added different parts. Something as simple as an intake and exhaust on an old Civic would ruin the engine's tune, resulting in rich smoke in the exhaust. That's what we're talking about. As you add things you generally increase the engine's performance, but to get the maximum effect you need to retune the engine to maximize the available benefit. That's exactly how the system should work.
 
That's not how it works in real life. Before cars were smart enough to tune themselves the engine would get all out of whack as you added different parts. Something as simple as an intake and exhaust on an old Civic would ruin the engine's tune, resulting in rich smoke in the exhaust. That's what we're talking about.

That's not how it works in real life either, or at least, not universally.

I'm not sure how much the average person here knows about how engines work and are tuned, so I'm going to go through the 101 level of engines and tuning.

A car engine depends on two things to make the best power, all other things being equal: having the right amount of fuel in the combustion chamber when it fires, and triggering the spark at the right time.

The right amount of fuel in the combustion chamber for best power is generally considered to be ~12.5 x the amount of air by weight. This means that petrol must be precisely metered for the amount of air flowing into the engine. The original scheme for accomplishing this metering is the carburetor, which meters the fuel through mechanical means. The modern scheme is electronic fuel injection, which uses some kind of sensor suite coupled to a computer (called by various TLAs, an ECU in GT parlance) to deduce the amount of air going into the engine and direct the injectors to fire to provide a controlled amount of fuel. (In between there was mechanical fuel injection, which I know little about and shall not discuss further.)

The right time to trigger the spark varies with both the speed and the load on the engine. In general, triggering too soon will fire while the piston is still going up (not just bad for power, but likely to break something), while triggering too late will fire after the piston has already started going down (bad for power). As the speed of the engine increases, the spark needs to be triggered earlier to allow time for the combustion to progress through the cylinder. An example of this would be a late-80's Ford Mustang, which has base timing of ~12* before top dead center (BTDC) which is advanced to ~35* BTDC over ~3500 RPM (exact numbers may be different, but all are in the right ballpark).

The original scheme for altering timing was purely mechanical in the distributor, with a system of weights to handle advancing the timing and points producing the spark. By the mid-'80's, there were semi-mechanical systems where the weights and points were replaced by an electronic system controlled by the ECU but there was still a rotor for delivering spark to the plug wires (which would allow base timing to be changed by clocking the distributor body).

With electronic fuel injection, there are two major sensor suites and schemes for deducing the amount of air going into the engine. One of these is known as "speed-density" and the other is known as "mass air flow". With the speed-density scheme, the physical and flow characteristics of the engine are pre-determined, with the density of the charge air measured by a pressure sensor and temperature sensor on the intake. With a mass air flow scheme, the actual mass of air is determined by measuring atmospheric pressure, air temperature, and the volume of air passing through a sensor.

So, how does all of this relate to tuning?

While timing is somewhat important, it's usually set pretty well from the factory. With a mechanical or semi-mechanical system, you can do some things with timing, with a purely electronic system (coil on plug, etc), the only way to fool with the timing is to mess with the ECU.

The big issue is the fuel metering. Remember how I said a speed density system has the flow characteristics of the engine pre-determined? That means that pretty much anything that fools around with the engine is going to screw up its behavior---and offhand, I think it's more likely to end up lean (with more air going through than is supposed to be) than rich, which is very bad for the health of an engine when you're driving it hard. In this case, your statement, "Something as simple as an intake and exhaust on an old Civic would ruin the engine's tune" is correct.

But you remember how I said that speed density isn't the only possible system for metering fuel in an engine? In a mass air scheme, the computer may have a fairly broad ability to deal with an engine that will move more air. It will depend on whether the air meter has the capacity to signal more air and whether the fuel injectors can move enough fuel (and even that can be partly addressed by changing the fuel pressure regulator to get higher pressure on the fuel rail). In a mass air car, you can do a significant amount of tuning and see the engine take it in stride. An example of this that I'm relatively familiar with is the Ford 2.3L turbo four-cylinder engine from the mid-late '80's. As it shipped stock in a Thunderbird Turbo Coupe, this engine was spec'ed at 190 bhp at the crank in a manual transmission car. The stock air meter, fuel injectors, and ECU can handle ~250 rwhp---that's with things like a cone air filter, replacement exhaust, port-matching in the intake, maybe bumping the amount of boost, but no tuning of the fuel or spark whatsoever, just the stock provided by the ECU.

Of course, that's also not getting into the issue that you don't want 12.5 AFR all the time, you will want higher for part-throttle and off-throttle for better fuel economy when you don't need max power, and you maybe even want higher for full throttle depending on whether you're normally-aspirated or boosted, and so on...

(And how do carbs fit into it? I'm not sure how well they typically deal with moving more air through the engine, but I do know that they need more fine-tuning than an ECU due to less capability to adjust to different atmospheric conditions, and they have a lot of latitude for aiming for a particular operating envelope by tweaking settings or internals.)



tl;dr: What kind of tuning is required for maximum performance depends on how extreme the modifications are you're making to the car, and how well-equipped the car was to handle modifications in stock form. Some can take a lot more power just with simple bolt-ons, some require modifying the ECU for even relatively minor changes, and carbs require different kinds of tuning altogether.
 
For better or worse, the differential ratio is accessed through the gearbox (as the final drive ratio), not the diff. And yes, you have to buy a fully adjustable gearbox to get it.
Yes I know that as should have been obvious in my post. My point was that it should be the rear diff either in the form of an adjustable final drive or options as to what ratio you install when you buy a new diff, at least some of the more common ratios for high and low gearing. This combined with the close ratio 5 speed or 6 speed and in some cases even with the stock tranny would be good for performance and add a more realistic element to the tuning and upgrading of the cars.

I just find it hard to believe that so many games have a fully adjustable tranny [un realistic] but none seem to have optional rear ratios for the diff where as in the real world changing the rear ratio is a very common thing when building a hotrod
 
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