Early 90's 500SEL Mercedes equivalent??

[tom_kauf]

Hi everyone,
I'm a big GT4 and Nürburgring Nordschleife fan, and I'll be in Germany next year driving at the 'Ring in our friend's early 90's 500SEL Mercedes (BIG, Soft V8 Luxury Sedan).

What would be similar to that in GT4, so I can practice?

Maybe a 97 Soarer (aka Lexus SC300), or the 2000 Lexus GS300?

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Tom

 

[Ev0 4 drifter]

driving in real life isn't like a game, you can learn the track, but whatever happens there's still the whole fear thing etc.

 

[tom_kauf]

Yes, I know. I have enough advanced driving/trackday expericence to know that.

But learning the track is crucial, especially on a long track like the Ring. I bought the Track Map, watched in-car videos (before filming and timing was banned).
So the final way of learning it is by driving it in 3D (driving sim). And there's no point practicing it on GT4 with something like a Caterham (light and nimble), when I'll be driving a bit-fat luxury around the track. It's about as realistic as any game is at the moment. Every little bit helps.

I haven't finished the game, so I just wanted to know what other people thought would be a similar car to the SEL.

Can anyone suggest one?

 

[Ev0 4 drifter]

the 190 evo 2 or whatever it's called.

 

[tom_kauf]

Cool, thanks. 👍
I actually have an 85 190E, but it's a normal (boring) 1.8L one.
It's a fair bit smaller than an SEL, but maybe similar power (i don't know).

Tom

 

[the Interceptor]

I wouldn't recommend the evo2, it's way too hard, harsh and agile compared to the 500 SEL. I'd rather take a luxury and heavy car, like the old SL 600, the Chrysler 300C or the Lexus GS 300.

EDIT: Oh, and you should use N2 tires. They give you the most realistic grip levels.

 

[tom_kauf]

Cool, thanks Interceptor.
I'll try the old SL 600 and the Chrysler 300C.
I tried the GS300 (was more suited than the Soarer because I think it's less sporty). It's not fun to drive, but real-life will be different.....

T

 

[Luca]

And of course remember that you can adjust the weight and power up and down to more closely match your choice. You can do this through arcade mode (+/- 20% power and 10% weight) or by just tuning it in GT mode (you can't decrease power, but you can increase power and both increase and decrease weight as you see fit).

The 500SEL weighs 2195 kg according to Edmunds.com, with 315 hp and 347 ft-lbs or torque, and of course the FR drivetrain.

The 90's versions of the Lexus GS and SC are both less powerful and lighter than the 500SEL... I'd go for the 300C myself. It's big and heavy, and it's even based on a Mercedes chassis so it's likely that some aspects will be especially similar to your friend's old Merc. On top of that, the actual numbers are also very close to the 500SEL - the 300C has 340 hp, 389 torque, and weighs 1878 kg. The weight will be nearly the same if you add the maximum 200 kg ballast, and the power isn't TOO much greater. You could always use arcade mode to decrease the power somewhat.

Oh, and there's also a 1998 Mercedes SL500, with 272 hp, 306 torque, and it weighs 1800 kg. Pretty similar to the 300C it seems, except less powerful.

 

[tom_kauf]

Some EXCELLENT ideas Luca. 👍

I think I'll pick the 300C (hadn't thought about the merc chassis, but you're right). I also didn't think of tuning the car to match power and weight. That's great, thanks. I did put on Standard tyres, but that's all.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[land sea air]

i envy you for having the opportunity to take the ring and even more so as i would love to do the same with my own w124 300e but i doubt that will happen... unfortunately i think you may be wasting your time trying to find the "right" car to practice with. the 126 cars feel sporty in real life but i imagine they would feel pretty lifeless at low speeds in the game. the m119 engine that the 500sel uses is quoted somwhere around 320lb ft of torque but it is widely believed that they make significantly more than that even after many years of use so i dont think the lexus ls or sc are fair comparisions. the chrysler 300c is a completely modern car with a very advanced mercedes rear end where as the 126 is a design dating from the early 80s without much change in its long life span, i do think that practicing in the game with any RWD car with N tires is an excellent idea and i know you will have the time of your life espeacially with the yachts comfortable 140mph cruising speed on the back straight. again my congrats to you tom

 

[danda]

if i had the opportunity to go to the ring i would have to hire something rather than drive that thing, i bet it turns like the titanic, why not make the most of the experience and hire something a bit special like a 911 etc, or buy urself a cheap Japanese car like a 200sx/s13 which would be a laugh

 

[Luca]

I think it's probably a lot safer to take a larger, slower car out on the 'Ring than something crazy fast like a Porsche. Besides, that's probably really expensive.

You're going to have to rein yourself in anyway to keep from dying, so I think it's better to drive something like a big Mercedes than a fast and dangerous sports car like a Porsche. I doubt you'll even be able to take the Mercedes to its limits, so why drop a bunch of money on renting a Porsche or buying a little Japanese sport compact.

What makes you think a Nissan S13 would be any faster than this Mercedes anyway? It weighs half as much but it has half the power too.

 

[land sea air]

i agree with luca about hiring, and it is indeed very expensive and technical to do so... i remember driving a 1986 560 sel that my friend was trying to sell me. ive driven faster cars but it was faster and more nimble than any 20 year old car of that size has a right too it would also be the car i would choose to be in if things went south as they historicly do on that track

 

[CRXnut]

Can't you get a rental instead of the Merc ? Nothing wrong with the car but I think the track would be more fun in smaller/lighter car

 

[tom_kauf]

Thanks for all your great suggestions guys. I really appreciate it. 👍

Yeah, I think you're right land sea air. Now that you mention the differences, it sounds like it'll be hard to find a good match. But it looks like any of the big old RWD drive car will do. Eventhough they're sooooo boring to drive in GT4. No game can give you a real sense of speed.
Great to hear from someone who owns something a bit similar, and has driven a 560sel.

I think Luca is probably right, a 911 is a bit extreme especially for my frist time around the Ring (I know my limits). I've also heard it's hard to make sure the Terms & Condition of a Rental's Insurance don't exclude the Ring, without attracting suspicion.
I may look into something lighter and a bit more nimble, like CRXnut suggested. A golf or something would do, but nothing sporty for my first time.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[tom_kauf]

P.S: I forgot to mention that I have a Logitech DrivingForce Pro Wheel. So that makes it a bit more realistic as well (but for learning track it makes little difference).
But I won't go to the extent of thinking 'I could do 90kmh around this corner so I'll do the same in real-life'. Being a bit scared will stop me from doing anything stupid, but I can image that people who've never driven a powerful sports car (I haven't either) get themselves into trouble when they hire a 911 and push it beyond their limits (not necessarily the car's limit ).

 

[the Interceptor]

As we're through here anyway:

if you forgot something in one of your postings, you can still add it later on by clicking on the small button that says "EDIT" in the lower right corner of your posts. You should do that, as multiple simultaneous postings are not welcome on forums.

No offense, just a hint to avoid trouble!

Regards
the Interceptor

 

[tom_kauf]

Cool, thanks. I edited the previous post for errors, but because those 2 were 10-15min apart, I didn't think of doing it.
But I will from now on.

 

[tom_kauf]

Cool, thanks. (Although this is another extra post, hehe).
I edited the previous post for errors, but because those 2 were 10-15min apart, I didn't think of doing it.
But I will from now on.

 

[Alfaholic]

I would have thought the old 500SL in the game would have been the closest match. It is similar vintage and quite probably has exactly the same engine. Not so sure about weight but I do know that the late '80s and early '90s SLs did not live up to their name (originally meant Sports Light, except in German, which has same initials). The car, according to contemporary road tests, was neither particularly sporty nor anywhere near light, so it should be quite close in feel to the SEL.

However... the SEL will have a longer wheelbase (otherwise it would be an SE) so it could be expected to turn in slower and in general feel less agile and more benign.

All guesses though

 

[danda]

im not knocking the merc but i just think u should make the most of the opportunity, i agree with CRXnut maybe a lighter car like an elise would be good but if you cant afford the few hundred £s to rent then thats not possible but u do have some time to save

 

[tom_kauf]

Yea, thanks Alfaholic. A few have now mentioned hiring a lighter car. The SEL is probably a bit of a Tank (but some other don't think do). Then again, that has its advantages as some people have pointed out. But maybe a lighter car would be better.
I'll be there in May next year, so I'll have a think about it till then.

Thanks danda, I might try the old SL anyway. I thought it would be too light and sporty, but it sound like it isn't either .

 

[danda]

im sure u will have a blast whatever u go in, as for practice on GT aslong as the car u choose is a FR and roughly the same weight and power, so i'd imagine the SL will be fine, good luck and enjoy the 'ring

 

[land sea air]

you definately have to post somewhere as soon as you get back from this trip though as im sure many would love to hear about it. on another note, if you do have some extra cash it would be a good idea to take the "ring taxi" after you drive it yourself, they take you around in a slightly tweaked current gen M5 with an F1 driver as your pilot and the prices are even reasonable, just remember there are almost certainly going to be cars much faster than yours on the track at the same time as you so keep an eye behind you

(off topic)
hows the 190? i almost bought one cheap as an extra to toy with but the GF wasnt to keen on it so it didnt happen

 

[Alfaholic]

Yea, thanks Alfaholic. A few have now mentioned hiring a lighter car. The SEL is probably a bit of a Tank (but some other don't think do). Then again, that has its advantages as some people have pointed out. But maybe a lighter car would be better.
I'll be there in May next year, so I'll have a think about it till then.

Thanks danda, I might try the old SL anyway. I thought it would be too light and sporty, but it sound like it isn't either .

Hmm. I'm trying not to sound biased here but it's difficult.. If you are considering hiring a car for travelling around the ring, then I would suggest look at companies that offer packages specific to the ring. There's one lot, whose name I cannot remember, who give you tutoring and track time in Alfa Romeo 75s. From what I have heard these courses are cheap but excellent value.

While the 75 may not look like the ideal track car, they are reasonably fast but they are possessed of excellent handling. The 75, mechanically, is pretty much the same as the Alfetta series (think original GTV6) and therefore is very similar to the SZ / RZ. These cars are rear wheel drive, have close to 50 / 50 weight distribution, adjustable, playful handling, and have steering feel that will astound anyone used to hot hatches or luxury saloons (BMWs included). No road car I have driven, including a Caterham superlight, gave me the level of steering feel that my old, unassisted, GTV had. The only thing I have ever driven that did it better was a Formula Ford.

I would expect that if you go for a Ring school you would also then not have the insurance headaches that you might get if you hire a sports car, or even if you run the 500SEL.

So shop around if you are looking for alternative cars to circulate in.

 

[CJ350]

Drop back by and let us know how you do. Particularly lap times, hehe. Would be interesting to see if you can approach the game times you set in a comparable car.

 

[Eric.]

Drop back by and let us know how you do. Particularly lap times, hehe. Would be interesting to see if you can approach the game times you set in a comparable car.

DON'T EVEN TRY TO DO THAT.

 

[tom_kauf]

Thanks guys,
Yeah, I'll let you know when I'm back, but I'm going in May so there's still a bit time of between now and then.

Hehe, no lap times (I've heard they're strict with any sort of filming or timing these days).

The Ring specific Hire company sounds interesting. Thanks Alfaholic. I know it can be a problem with normal hire companies and insurance for the ring. So that sounds like a good idea. I've never driven an Alfa, but they sound pretty good.

The 190E is good. I bought it at Auction about 1 month ago (very cheap). It's an 85 with 210,000km and only had a few minor problems (annoyances like Rattly Aircon Fan, bit of trim falling off, aircon button missing, door makes scraping sound, 1x electric window only goes up etc.). I'm sure that if I had spent 3x as much, I could've gotten one in mint condition. But I spent the last 2-3 weekends fixing the problems with inexpensive parts from Wreckers (and help from Haynes manual), and it's mostly good now. It still needs a bit of throttle to start it, and it sometimes stalls when cold, but I'll get it checked out because I think the idle is too low (450-500rpm). But it's only the 1.8L. I've read that in 86 (1 year newer) they imported a 2.0L 190E, 87: 2.2L and in 88 the 190E was 2.4L.
Oh well, it's my 'sensible' car (i had an 03 Lexus IS200, but I thought I could could better things with the money). The 190E was a 10th of the price (an 8th after I fixed a few things), so I'm happy.

 

[Alfaholic]

Here's the link to the Alfa one. I am sure there are many more, and probably some in more modern cars.

http://www.75experience.nl/

Have fun!

 

[danda]

ive been having a little look about and seen this site rent-racecar.de, they dont offer very much mostly bmw's, a 325i coupe E36 for 390 euros(not to sure how much that is in £s about £200 at a wild guess) all insured minimum age is 25, they also have a 318t1 compact which i have driven one of these and thought it was a bit average, and a M3, megane cup, and a vectra although i didnt see many details about these it seems they are on special request because you will have to contact them about these cars, there are some other sites too such as ringhaus, but i did read somewhere that a lot of car rental companys offer a bounty(2000 euros) to the people at the ring for spotting hire cars and reporting them, but this will not include the cars at rent-racecar or other sites that offer dedicated ring toys