Electric cars - why such a big push?

[hawkeye122]

Exactly, 95% of the time. What about the other 5%?

A. Have a gasoline or hybrid car
B. Suck it up and wait to charge
C. Idea: Battery stations. Running out of charge? Pop into a station and swap out for fresh ones. Your old one gets charged, and then the next guy comes and uses it. But the market for this service won't get big until i) The electric car industry gains traction ii) All the manufacturers work out some way of standardizing batteries OR making them easy to get to. This wouldnt work if there was only 4 batteries at the station. You'd need at least 20-ish, assuming they all arrived at different times.

Good idea or no?

 

[Adamgp]

A. Have a gasoline or hybrid car
B. Suck it up and wait to charge
C. Idea: Battery stations. Running out of charge? Pop into a station and swap out for fresh ones. Your old one gets charged, and then the next guy comes and uses it. But the market for this service won't get big until i) The electric car industry gains traction ii) All the manufacturers work out some way of standardizing batteries OR making them easy to get to. This wouldnt work if there was only 4 batteries at the station. You'd need at least 20-ish, assuming they all arrived at different times.

Good idea or no?

A. Owning an EV AND a gas/hybrid is not an option for most people
B. Not an option in an emergency
C. That would work, if EV batteries were cheap, or easily replaced. Even hybrid batteries cost ~$2,000+

 

[Azuremen]

Exactly, 95% of the time. What about the other 5%?

Public transit, rail systems, or renting.

 

[Adamgp]

Public transit, rail systems, or renting.

Not always an option.

 

[Crispy]

Have you ever thought, that perhaps the people who buy Prius's just want good gas milage and less money out of their pocket? A guy I know drives a 3000GT for his fun car, then uses the Prius to get to and from work. That way he doesn't have to spend a fortune on gas.

You seem to think the world is based on speed. I presume you don't have a car. Once you do, you will realize how nice it would be to spend less each week on fuel, so you can use that money to pay off the insurance company.

I don't like hybrids or electric cars. If you know how the batteries are made they aren't really the greenest vehicles out there, but some people might just want to spend less on fuel, so they can afford to feed a family. I'd like to see HICE cars take a stride, however I don't really see that happening at all anytime soon.

EDIT: I can't believe I'm defending a Prius for once. I despise it more than anything, but that's because I like cars like the MX-5, WRX STi, Skyline, cars like these. For what the Prius was meant for, it does a damn well job.

 

[Azuremen]

Not always an option.

An option most of the time.

Or are you arguing everyone will need a high range car for the occasional road trip? Because the majority of people I know would much rather read a book while travelling any serious distance, and thus transit or flying is a very handy option.

Or we can all own highway cruisers because we might have to, sometimes, drive further.

ICE's are about 20 to 30% efficient, converting electricity to hydrogen or whatever isn't exactly an efficient means to power something. We've been benefiting from the cheap stored power of fossil fuels for along time, but gas is easily 3 times as much now as it was when I got my license and it will only go up. People won't be able to afford gasoline for cars soon enough as it stands.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

ICE running on hydrogen...

I don't want to calculate the net efficiency there.

 

[Adamgp]

An option most of the time.

Or are you arguing everyone will need a high range car for the occasional road trip? Because the majority of people I know would much rather read a book while traveling any serious distance, and thus transit or flying is a very handy option.

Or we can all own highway cruisers because we might have to, sometimes, drive further.

ICE's are about 20 to 30% efficient, converting electricity to hydrogen or whatever isn't exactly an efficient means to power something. We've been benefiting from the cheap stored power of fossil fuels for along time, but gas is easily 3 times as much now as it was when I got my license and it will only go up. People won't be able to afford gasoline for cars soon enough as it stands.

Not always an option. I don't live near a train station, bus stop or car rental place. Same probably goes for a lot of people.

When I purchase a vehicle, I try to imagine what I could use the vehicle for. A typical EV would meet the commuter demands for just about everyone. but what about making that trip to Grandma's house, or to Wally World?

The old EV would turn a day or two long drive into a week long trek with it's 6-8 hour charges every 100 miles.

I'll type it again since everyone seems to miss it, range is not the problem for (most) EV's anymore, it is cost and charge time.

 

[Kylehnat]

If every ICE vehicle is off the road in 30 years, I will be amazed.

I didn't say every. ICE's will still be needed for other applications, but commuting isn't one of them.

C. Idea: Battery stations. Running out of charge? Pop into a station and swap out for fresh ones.

That's what I think, too. Almost out of juice? Pull into the nearest "gas" station and swap your batteries. Five minutes, and you're on your way again. Like you say, this will need auto makers to standardize batteries, and stations to be able to keep a constant supply of fresh ones.

 

[Prince.M5]

The only problems I see with electric and hybrid cars are their price, their longevity, and questionable eco-friendliness.

Everything right there is questionable. The price can be cheap or expensive. Perhaps the cheapest Hybrid currently in my country is the Honda Insight while the most expensive might be something from BMW's or Mercedes's offering.

I'm not sure what you mean by longevity, and I'm assuming their existance? Hybrid and electric cars might stay for at least another 30-50 years to come or more. To me, hybrid and electric cars is just a transition of technology between pre-future and future before we find a much better solution.

Reliability is obviously what takes away buyers from buying a hybrid cars. The battery is ridiculously expensive for what it is now and used car value for these hybrid cars are very ridiculous! Yet we don't even know how long the battery will stay in good condition.

How eco-friendliness? Well, not 100% but sure it helps to reduce the emmision of Carbon monoxide gas eh?

 

[Murcie_LP640]

I'm not sure what you mean by longevity, and I'm assuming their existance? Hybrid and electric cars might stay for at least another 30-50 years to come or more. To me, hybrid and electric cars is just a transition of technology between pre-future and future before we find a much better solution.

He may be referring to the battery packs, which (supposedly) have a maximum lifespan of about 5-10 years in most EVs. According to an expert (because Nissan didn't want to say anything on this with regards to the LEAF), if you charge them frugally (charge when half-empty and not using a fast charge station) the maximum is 10 years and the cost of a new battery pack in today's money for a LEAF is £7,000.

 

[Prince.M5]

He may be referring to the battery packs, which have a maximum lifespan of about 5-10 years in most EVs. According to an expert (because Nissan didn't want to say anything on this with regards to the LEAF), if you charge them frugally (charge when half-empty and not using a fast charge station) the maximum is 10 years and the cost of a new battery pack in today's money for a LEAF is £7,000.

I would assume, it will only last for at least 5 or 7 years roughly based on constant usage and charging and the heat/weather affecting the physical state of the battery. If someone can last it for 10 years, that's good. But my word how costly that battery pack is

Bad thing, again I will take the Honda Insight as an example. Honda gave the Insight a 5 years warranty including the battery pack and that, I assume is just enough before the battery started to fail. My uncle won't be very happy about it...

 

[Murcie_LP640]

Yeah, that's the unfortunate luck many people have with most cars...all the bad **** happens just as it runs out of warranty

 

[Azuremen]

Not always an option. I don't live near a train station, bus stop or car rental place. Same probably goes for a lot of people.

When I purchase a vehicle, I try to imagine what I could use the vehicle for. A typical EV would meet the commuter demands for just about everyone. but what about making that trip to Grandma's house, or to Wally World?

The old EV would turn a day or two long drive into a week long trek with it's 6-8 hour charges every 100 miles.

I'll type it again since everyone seems to miss it, range is not the problem for (most) EV's anymore, it is cost and charge time.

I hate to break this to you, but the vast majority of the population lives in cities, where public transit is far more accessible. You are also ignoring rapid recharges that will hit 70 to 80% of the battery in far less time. And I'm curious how much you'd like to pay $15 dollars for gasoline to go visit grandma versus some other method, perhaps driving to station.

You seem to think everyone needs what you need, which is hardly the case. Especially outside of the US, where we do have a more unique issue of distance between locations. You also seem to think that we can't generate solutions beyond personal transit, when the reality is we have to move away from that eventually, as it is woefully inefficient.

 

[homeforsummer]

The Escape Hybrid gets an extra 3mpg over it's gas counterpart. So, a little bit better than the Silverado Hybrid, but still...3mph for an extra $2,000 - $12,000?

Nice of you to use the highway figure for your comparison and ignore the more relevant ones.

On the EPA's own website neither of the gasoline-engined Escapes get anywhere near the hybrid Escape on either combined or city figures. And we're talking taxis, so combined and city are massively more relevant than your 3mpg highway difference.

2012 Ford Escape FWD Hybrid CVT
34 City
31 Highway
32 Combined

2012 Ford Escape FWD Manual
23 City
28 Highway
25 Combined

So not only is the regular Escape 11mpg worse than the hybrid in city driving, but you'd have to stir your own gears too.

Yeah, can really see that one catching on with NYC taxi drivers...

Do me a favour - I'm not an idiot, and I know my stuff in this particular area. If you have a point to make, try and make it a valid one.

The Fisker is a hybrid Tesla. Seriously, Henrik Fisker designed the Tesla Model S and then promptly turned around and built the Karma. The Karma is slightly less than the Tesla...but I still would buy a Tesla over a Karma.

Fisker designed both true but that doesn't mean the Karma is anything like the Model S. Have you even seen both of them? They look completely different, they use a very different method of propulsion, they seat different numbers of people, the interior is completely different and they're going to be priced totally differently. The Karma is double the price of the Model S.

And it has the same concept of powertrain as the Volt. Right down to it being a GM range-extending engine under the hood, albeit a V6 instead of a 1.4 4cyl.

As for the Volt...I don't think I've ever heard of a hybrid like that before. It's and EV...but you don't have to use it as an EV. But, then again, it's a GM product, so I'm not expecting them to just go all EV right away. They did that once....and then promptly released the Hummer H2 at the end of the Pontiac EV1's life.

I'm not a fan of what GM did to the EV1 but I think the Volt is a clever car, and a good interim step. It's not perfect but if I had the money I'd be choosing it over the Leaf, as my current driving habits couldn't yet be handled by any full-electric vehicle. I don't often do the short journeys they're best at, and when I do drive it tends to be 200-odd mile trips.

The Volt would allow me those longer trips, but on the occasions I only do short journeys, I'd be able to do them entirely electrically.

Personally, I think the Karma would be better as a gasoline powered car. But, Fisker's a jerk, so, I'd rather his cars just end up in the junkyard.

And what exactly are you basing that on?

Again, if you want to have a proper discussion about this, dropping the ridiculous prejudices would be a good way to start.

 

[Adamgp]

I hate to break this to you, but the vast majority of the population lives in cities, where public transit is far more accessible. You are also ignoring rapid recharges that will hit 70 to 80% of the battery in far less time. And I'm curious how much you'd like to pay $15 dollars for gasoline to go visit grandma versus some other method, perhaps driving to station.

You mean "rapid" recharge systems that still take ~30 minutes? While much faster, they also are more expensive, shorten battery life, and put additional stress on the electricity grid.

This means those expensive batteries would need to be replaced much sooner. And with only 70-80% charge, range is much less than on a full charge.

You seem to think everyone needs what you need, which is hardly the case. Especially outside of the US, where we do have a more unique issue of distance between locations. You also seem to think that we can't generate solutions beyond personal transit, when the reality is we have to move away from that eventually, as it is woefully inefficient.

Not the case at all. Merely stated an opinion, which is I don't think EV's are the future.

You want an EV? Buy one, I wont stop you.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

This means those expensive batteries would need to be replaced much sooner. And with only 70-80% charge, range is much less than on a full charge.

This is the other point I forgot to mention before: if you constantly use one of those fast recharge stations, the life of the battery pack on the LEAF (once again as the example) can theoretically shorten to as little as 3 years.

 

[HACKr]

How eco-friendliness? Well, not 100% but sure it helps to reduce the emmision of Carbon monoxide gas eh?

But you trade the deep sea drilling for more strip mining... I'd say it's probably more eco friendly to keep an old diesel clunker running than to rush out and buy a new EV.

 

[Prince.M5]

But you trade the deep sea drilling for more strip mining... I'd say it's probably more eco friendly to keep an old diesel clunker running than to rush out and buy a new EV.

Forget that, because if I'm buying a brand new car in the near future, a diesel will always be my choice. Diesel is cheap here, even if the road tax is expensive it still won't hurt that bad as a petrol car. A BMW 320d is a good buy nowadays and they're almost everywhere on the streets of Kuala Lumpur!

It's still a tough time for EV, but Hybrids are going good too especially the Honda Insight I mentioned. That's all I can say.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Diesel is cheap here, even if the road tax is expensive it still won't hurt that bad as a petrol car.

Depends, if you're going for city-driving than a diesel probably isn't you best bet.

 

[wfooshee]

On the argument of public transport alternatives to short-range EVs, I gotta disagree with Azuremen.

Let's state some basic assumptions.

User is a city or near-city resident, so the EV makes sense as a short-range transport.
Since the user is a city resident, mass transit is available.

So yeah, if my EV is out of service for some reason, I can probably catch a bus or a train into town. Might have to hire a cab to get to a station somewhere near my house.

But what about packing the wife and kids and going to Grandma's in Tennessee? The EV is useless as it's a trip of almost a thousand miles, and public transport is a cost per person. If I had a family car with a gasoline engine, I buy pretty much the same gas whether it's just me or plus a wife and 7 kids. But take a train or a plane and the difference between one person or a family trip becomes severely significant.

As for the "inefficiency" of personal transit, the size and space of our country is where personal transit comes from in the first place. It's the ONLY way to get from here to there economically. Air travel gets me close, but is hideously expensive. We don't have any rail service to speak of, and if we did, rail would close to double the trip time compared to driving, because even with express trains between hubs, the local trains have to stop at every little podunk town on the route. You have to change trains 3 or 4 times to get from Queens to Yankee stadium, how many trains will I have to ride to get to Grandma's town? And at what cost, since everyone needs a ticket?

For most Americans, unless we can take an EV to Grandma's, we have no use for it. Maybe a standard set of exchangable battery packs would work. But for that the exchange stations would need accessible storage rather than the underground tanks they store gasoline in. They'll need racks and racks of shelf space to plug in the packs being charged, and some way to properly monitor the rotation of stock as they exchange, and a way to pull out end-of-life packs. If I could pull up, swap a set of packs without unpacking everything in the trunk, buy the electricy they got charged with, and be on my way, it could work. But having to plug in and wait will never fly for most of us. but a gas station services thousands of cars and trucks per day. Where are they gonna put and charge enough batteries to handle that traffic?

 

[Azuremen]

So how much are you willing to pay for fuel then? You guys keep pointing out the range limitation to a standard battery pack EV, but what is your suggestion when fuel for an ICE costs more than putting the family on a train to go somewhere?

Please, do tell me what your suggestion is to the ICE car that isn't an EV?

 

[Adamgp]

You assuming the price of electricity won't continue to go up as well?

 

[Azuremen]

You assuming the price of electricity won't continue to go up as well?

Not at the rate fossil fuels will. Considering how much easier it is to produce and move electricity versus combustibles, I don't see how this is even a real question. More so when you consider how many alternative technologies are being looked into, and ones that are currently active that are not reliant on fossil fuels - hydro, nuclear, solar, wind, tidal, geothermal.

 

[YSSMAN]

Wow! You're getting a GM Hybrid...the most useless and pointless hybrids ever conceived... If you're going to be a hybrid, don't buy American.

I hope that you realize that GM offered two separate types of hybrids to the buying public. The most-criticized version was their "mild-hybrid," similar to Honda's IMA setup. Their other hybrid system was a full-on two-mode system, similar to the Ford and Toyota systems that allowed the vehicle to move on electric power, gasoline, or a combination of both.

The "mild-hybrid" setup is going to be soldiering on at GM as a low-cost efficiency option on some of their cars. Because the system is able to add several MPG while only saddling the car with 40 lbs of weight, GM thinks that it is an easily adaptable, low-cost option that people can have without even knowing that it is there. In fact, the base version of the Buick LaCrosse comes with "mild-hybrid" setup whether you want it or not, and the 2013 Chevrolet Malibu Eco will not only be offered exclusively with that powertrain... It will be the only Malibu available until the late summer.

The two-mode system has worked remarkably well at GM, and in the end the design of the powertrain was licensed to Chrysler, Daimler-Benz and BMW. However, unlike the systems utilized by Ford, Toyota and so on... GM's two-mode system allows them to use automatic transmissions off the shelf, giving drivers a nearly seamless experience. A hybrid that drives like a completely normal vehicle? No way!

As for Ford and Chrysler, their technology has been hit and miss. Ford was a pioneer of sorts with hybrid technology, their own work paralleling Toyota's initial investments with the HSD system in the Prii... Without even seeing what the Japanese were working on, they managed to come up with nearly the same technology. In the end, Ford had to buy some of Toyota's licenses, but in return Toyota had to buy some of their diesel and direct-injection technology. Aside from that, however, I'd argue that Ford offers some of the best hybrids on the market today... In particular, the Fusion and Escape Hybrids. Both require little sacrifice on behalf of the driver, and as I recall offer the best fuel economy in the market. The Fusion itself is quite a clever car, for the money a substantial value, easy to drive efficiently... Even able to run up to 42 MPH on electricity alone... Perfect for the suburbs or the city.



In regard to hybrids in general, I think it really comes down to the execution of technology, and its seamless integration into the final product. If a driver isn't able to tell that the vehicle is a hybrid to start, I would consider that a substantial success. Cars like the LaCrosse and Malibu Eco are likely to never be identified as such, whereas the Prius (and its variants) and the Insight will be shunned for their shape and performance. No, there is nothing substantially wrong with those vehicles... But to the ignorant, they're everything that's wrong with hybrids in the first place.

My guess is that, if the average customer drove a Prius, they'd never know the difference. In only a small number of current hybrid vehicles is the technology ever obtrusive, and the only one I can think of off the top of my head is the numerous complaints about the way power is applied in the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid and Kia Optima Hybrid. Their funky battery/clutch system is to blame... But it works.

 

[Joey D]

I agree with Cody on this one, EV's coupled with mass transit and long range rental vehicles make more sense than writing off EV's completely. We have pretty poor mass transit in the Detroit area, mainly because there is no demand. If a demand was created it, our transit system would improve greatly at a pretty fast rate.

If you also had more people flying and by traveling by train along with buses, the competition would go up meaning cheaper fairs and customer service that assumes you're a human being instead of a seat number.

With the topic of why EV's are becoming more and more prevalent, it's because there is buyers out there for them. A automaker isn't going to put millions into R&D for the helluva it, they are out to turn a profit and exploit certain markets. Eventually vehicles will have to run on some other form of fuel, oil will out price itself to be a viably option, so why not start pioneering the technology now when fuel prices are reasonable enough?

Another event that shows the need to start thinking about switching fuel types is what is currently happening with Iran. They are threatening to Western world by clamping down on oil delivery, why should one nation hold so much power over the major world powers? Cut down on the oil consumption and there is no need to depend on nations with crazed dictators.

Honestly I don't understand the hate that comes on EV's. Sure, I am not ready to buy one but give it some time and I'll have no problem popping for one. I do quite a bit of driving but it's never great distances, just several short distances a day. And if mass transit became available here in the Detroit area I would take it everywhere I could. Couple that with rental places that offer gas/electric hyrbids like the Volt and I'll be set for the few road trips I want to take over a year.

The cost of the battery packs isn't an issue either. Think about how much you spend in fuel over the course of 7 years? Even when you subtract the cost of electricity you are still probably OK. Not to mention in 7 years, battery technology will be cheaper. There is also the reduced engine repairs on an EV too, you have far fewer moving parts on an EV then a fuel powered car.

 

[homeforsummer]

He may be referring to the battery packs, which (supposedly) have a maximum lifespan of about 5-10 years in most EVs. According to an expert (because Nissan didn't want to say anything on this with regards to the LEAF), if you charge them frugally (charge when half-empty and not using a fast charge station) the maximum is 10 years and the cost of a new battery pack in today's money for a LEAF is £7,000.

There are a lot of myths about battery packs knocking around.

The Leaf's pack is warranted for 8 years, but Nissan has said it really expects the pack to last the life of the car.

That includes rapid-charging too. Places like Top Gear seem to have introduced this rumour that rapid charging will kill it in three years. Again, Nissan has said this (from the above article):

“We are confident that [rapid] charging once a day will have no impact on the expected durability,” said a Nissan representative. “A single [rapid] charge plus a conventional charge per day would give enough to travel almost 200 miles a day, or 72,000 miles a year. The average motorist does less than 10,000 miles a year. An example from our telematics shows a privately-owned Leaf in Tokyo still has 100% charge capacity after 10,00 miles and 326 [rapid] charges."

At that kind of mileage, three years (or 216,000 miles) doesn't seem too bad for a battery pack. In normal driving, with less-frequent fast charging, that should realistically be 20-odd years of driving. And as an electric car it's unlikely to do many miles a year anyway.

And if £7,000 gets you another 20-odd years of driving, that doesn't seem to bad to me really.

Obviously battery life will vary if you drive in extreme conditions (sustained very hot or very cold climates) but that shouldn't be a problem for most owners.

Bad thing, again I will take the Honda Insight as an example. Honda gave the Insight a 5 years warranty including the battery pack and that, I assume is just enough before the battery started to fail. My uncle won't be very happy about it...

Warranty =/= a battery lifetime.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm currently trying to arrange an interview with a guy in California who has first-gen Honda Civic hybrid with 720,000 miles on it. Probably more, since his web-page has been around for a while now and he adds mileage at quite a rate. In those 720,000 miles, he's had to replace the battery pack once. An average of 360,000 miles per battery pack is probably reasonable, don't you think?

 

[theotherspongey]

I don't really understand electric car hype at all, I mean, where does the car get electricity from in the first place?
That's right, usually a polluting coal/natural gas power plant. How do electric cars really help from saving gas?
I think all we need is a solar powered car, and then we're set.

 

[Crispy]

How about using an alternator to charge the battery? It wouldn't charge it all the way, but it would keep it from draining as fast. Then when you get home, you plug it in to charge until tomorrow. Not the most efficient way, but it could be possible.

Also, what about HICE engines? Many European buses use Hydrogen ICE engines. The cost is greater, but compared to a Fuel Cell, it's nothing!

 

[homeforsummer]

I don't really understand electric car hype at all, I mean, where does the car get electricity from in the first place?
That's right, usually a polluting coal/natural gas power plant. How do electric cars really help from saving gas?

So tell me, how does gasoline appear in your tank then?

Certainly isn't magic.

Might have something to do with all that searching, constructing oil rigs, drilling, pumping, storing, shipping, storing again, refining (using power from those polluting coal/natural gas power plants you mention), storing again, transporting by road, pumping into the station, and then keeping those stations open 24 hours a day (using power from those polluting coal/natural gas power plants you mention... again). Yes, that might be it.

I do wonder when people will start realising that the old "so where does an electric car get its power from, then?" argument is the most pointless one in the whole book. EVs have plenty of genuine negative sides at the moment but people insist on coming up with some pretty dumb ones sometimes.

How about using an alternator to charge the battery? It wouldn't charge it all the way, but it would keep it from draining as fast. Then when you get home, you plug it in to charge until tomorrow. Not the most efficient way, but it could be possible.

You've answered your own question there - it's not very efficient.

Alternators work well in regular ICE cars because they're drawing on the power from an engine to feed a relatively small battery.

Using an alternator to top up an electric vehicle is robbing Peter to pay Paul. All it's doing is drawing extra power from the car's motor that it could be using for propulsion instead. And thanks to the laws of thermodynamics, you always have to put more energy in than you get out, so the alternator would be redundant. What you'd have if you made it work is a perpetual motion machine, and if you do that then you've broken the universe

Also, what about HICE engines? Many European buses use Hydrogen ICE engines. The cost is greater, but compared to a Fuel Cell, it's nothing!

It has many of the same problems as using hydrogen in a fuel cell - namely, gathering useful quantities of hydrogen. If you're going to use an internal combustion engine, it simply makes more sense pumping petrol or diesel into it, because at least they're relatively easy to get at.

Running buses on the stuff is fine by and large because they make up a relatively small proportion of road transport so it's not as difficult getting adequate quantities of hydrogen for them.