End of an Era: Shuttle program coming to a close

[FoolKiller]

I disagree. The Shuttle was a step in the right direction for a space craft that can carry more than 3 people outside of earth's orbit. Sure the Shuttle couldn't do that itself, but it was a stepping stone to something that could have. That's progress. Going back to Capsules is definitely not progress.

You want to leave orbit with more than 3 people? ISS is a staging point and putting six people up on two rockets is still cheaper and safer.

Roll them all you want, but trust me, that was funny. That's like telling Michael Shumacher he has no interest in racing.

They're trying to do that now. So far....not working.

Doesn't work so well that NASA has contracted 12 supply missions to ISS from SpaceX.
http://www.spacex.com/launch_manifest.php

I should also note that anything labeled DragonLab on that list is a commercial, non-ISS mission. That means someone like a satellite TV provider is paying a private company to launch their satellite. Those are 100% private space missions.

Also,

In December 2008, NASA announced the selection of SpaceX’s Falcon 9 launch vehicle and Dragon spacecraft to resupply the International Space Station (ISS) when the Space Shuttle retires. The $1.6 billion contract represents a minimum of 12 flights, with an option to order additional missions for a cumulative total contract value of up to $3.1 billion.

12 flights = $1.6 billion. So for the cost of 3 shuttle missions they can do 12. That comes out to $133 million a flight. Dragon can hold humans, so for the cost of half a shuttle the same number of humans (2 flights = 6) can be ferried to ISS to use better and bigger equipment than the shuttle had and do the same thing.

How is that not working?

And let's review the soon to be tested Falcon Heavy.
http://www.spacex.com/falcon_heavy.php

Falcon Heavy, the world’s most powerful rocket, represents SpaceX’s entry into the heavy lift launch vehicle category. With the ability to carry satellites or interplanetary spacecraft weighing over 53 metric tons (117,000 lb) to Low Earth Orbit (LEO), Falcon Heavy can lift nearly twice the payload of the next closest vehicle, the US Space Shuttle, and more than twice the payload of the Delta IV Heavy.

Price* $80M - $125M

More than twice the payload of the shuttle, for half, or less, of the cost? I wonder if a larger, say 6 person, passenger cabin could be developed for this rocket?

 

[Danoff]

I do want to say this for shuttle - it captured the imagination. I think people see it and are immediately hit with notions of the future. Shuttle is the reason I got interested in space, as is the case for many people. So as much as I've bashed it in this thread (it is a soap box for me), it does have huge value in generating interest in space. For that reason, as much as it pains me to say it, shuttle will always have a sentimental place for me. I fell in love with it long before I could ever have understood the downside.

My main hope is that without shuttle, people can find the other amazing missions that NASA engages in to be inspirational.

 

[FoolKiller]

My main hope is that without shuttle, people can find the other amazing missions that NASA engages in to be inspirational.

I think the progress of, and support for SpaceX and Virgin Galactic are very good signs.

Virgin Galactic, while being barely more than a fancy plane ride, has the ability to capture the imagination in an even bigger way. In the event that it ever becomes priced for middle class America it will give everyone a chance at a taste of space.




And how timely was this to have just popped into my news reader?

 

[CodeRedR51]

You want to leave orbit with more than 3 people?

We'll need to at some point.

I do want to say this for shuttle - it captured the imagination. I think people see it and are immediately hit with notions of the future.

It's more than that. It also represents what we as humans are capable of and how far we have come. Rockets just don't have the same "wow" factor.

My main hope is that without shuttle, people can find the other amazing missions that NASA engages in to be inspirational.

Only problem with that is that nobody knows about them. It's harder now than ever to get the public to back certain space missions because they don't know what is going on. And usually, if humans aren't involved, it get's even less attention. Hence what I was saying earlier about human based missions being more important.

 

[Grand Prix]

Only problem with that is that nobody knows about them. It's harder now than ever to get the public to back certain space missions because they don't know what is going on. And usually, if humans aren't involved, it get's even less attention. Hence what I was saying earlier about human based missions being more important.

Well, if the shuttle program is being shut down, who's to say the media won't simply shift their attention to un-manned missions?

 

[CodeRedR51]

Well, if the shuttle program is being shut down, who's to say the media won't simply shift their attention to un-manned missions?

They don't even focus any attention on the shuttle missions, let alone anything else. They're only focusing on it now because it's the last one.

 

[FoolKiller]

We'll need to at some point.

I just told you how it should be done. In fact, I took it straight from the original Mars mission plans, when the shuttle program was involved. I just adapted it to have no shuttle.

Rockets just don't have the same "wow" factor.

But they do have the reality factor. That tends to be important in engineering.

Only problem with that is that nobody knows about them. It's harder now than ever to get the public to back certain space missions because they don't know what is going on. And usually, if humans aren't involved, it get's even less attention. Hence what I was saying earlier about human based missions being more important.

Um, during the Apollo missions TV stations started cutting away because it got boring. We had to nearly kill three guys to get them tuned back in for moon missions.

Turns out that space flight, like most scientific endeavors, has a lot of quiet, unexciting periods that don't really grab the public's attention. My wife saw me watching the NASA channel when they were repairing a heat tile and while I was enthralled she found it incredibly dull.

Manned or not, the public will be bored unless there is something adding intrigue.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Manned or not, the public will be bored unless there is something adding intrigue.

Disagree.

(example here, don't jump down my throat)

Manned mission to Mars = Potentially lots of attention.
Un-manned mission to Mars = happens almost every year....nobody knows.

Honestly what we have here is just another internet battle of opinions. I'm going to stop before I stress myself out even more 15 hours before I go in for surgery. (during the launch no less)

 

[Danoff]

Disagree.

(example here, don't jump down my throat)

Manned mission to Mars = Potentially lots of attention.
Un-manned mission to Mars = happens almost every year....nobody knows.

Honestly what we have here is just another internet battle of opinions. I'm going to stop before I stress myself out even more 15 hours before I go in for surgery. (during the launch no less)

The engineering difference between a manned mars mission and an unmanned mars mission is well... astronomical. It doesn't take 1 billion dollars to put something in orbit around mars. $1 billion wouldn't get you 1% of the way toward putting a person on mars. So yea, people ought to sit up and notice if you do something that difficult. On that point, a shuttle launch is also a significant engineering achievement.

I find it more intellectually stimulating that mankind has sent a spacecraft skimming through the murky atmosphere of Titan. We then sent that same spacecraft through the ice volcano plumes of Enceladus (pictured earlier) so that we could get a chemical analysis. That does more for my imagination than a guy walking on the surface of Mars would.

 

[CodeRedR51]

That does more for my imagination than a guy walking on the surface of Mars would.

And that's where we differ in opinion.

Case closed. 👍

 

[Dotini]

I'm going to stop before I stress myself out even more 15 hours before I go in for surgery. (during the launch no less)

I'm going to agree with R1600Turbo that the Apollo program and moon landing, which I witnessed, was one of mankind's greatest achievements and life's most unforgettable moments. Too bad we've run low on money and something's got to give. Maybe China will send a man to Mars, or pay for a global effort.

In the meantime, relax and enjoy your surgery as much as possible, and we wish you a speedy recovery. 👍

Yours truly,
Steve

 

[Robin]

Can someone please tell me what time the launch is in the UK, because last time I was eating lunch! And I don't want to miss this one!

Also whats the best stream to watch it on?

 

[icelt]

R1600 - I can appreciate you have a certain passion for the Shuttle, but this passion seems to also be clouding your vision. Apart from the impossible to quantify "wow factor," that arguably barely exists in popular opinion anyway, there is really no meaningful and measurable feature of the shuttle that supports its continued existence. The areas where it is lacking have been pointed out, and in some cases in pain staking detail, yet still your "love" for the Shuttle won't let you acknowledge this reality. I think your stress levels regarding the topic would drop significantly if you'd just allow yourself to see the program as it actually is and not how you would prefer it to be. Just like "romantic love" in real life, sometimes we just need to move on.

Our space program is better off without the shuttle and it is time to move on for the greater good if nothing else.

Can someone please tell me what time the launch is in the UK, because last time I was eating lunch! And I don't want to miss this one!

Also whats the best stream to watch it on?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/235237/where_to_watch_the_last_space_shuttle_launch_online.html

 

[CodeRedR51]

R1600 - I can appreciate you have a certain passion for the Shuttle, but this passion seems to also be clouding your vision. Apart from the impossible to quantify "wow factor," that arguably barely exists in popular opinion anyway, there is really no meaningful and measurable feature of the shuttle that supports its continued existence. The areas where it is lacking have been pointed out, and in some cases in pain staking detail, yet still your "love" for the Shuttle won't let you acknowledge this reality. I think your stress levels regarding the topic would drop significantly if you'd just allow yourself to see the program as it actually is and not how you would prefer it to be. Just like "romantic love" in real life, sometimes we just need to move on.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the shuttle is old and needs to move on. What I have a problem with is reverting back to 60's designs. The shuttle was a giant leap forward in space travel design, and now we're taking a giant leap backwards. 👎

 

[icelt]

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the shuttle is old and needs to move on. What I have a problem with is reverting back to 60's designs. The shuttle was a giant leap forward in space travel design, and now we're taking a giant leap backwards. 👎

It was definitely a leap forward in complexity, expense and unfortunately risk but apart from the "wow" factor what measurable characteristics in its favor does it currently have in comparison to all the other options? I mean the days of the world making headlines because a HS science teacher made it into space are over. So we are left with hard and calculable metrics that must be used to justify any specific direction one wants to point the program. Cost/benefit. Putting anything into space, a ping pong table for instance, is ridiculously expensive (as Danoff has stated) and the costs only greatly increase when one wants to add a human to the payload list. So what is the measurable and calculable benefit for putting a human into space? Naturally also add to that where, when, why and how ?

 

[CodeRedR51]

So what is the measurable and calculable benefit for putting a human into space? Naturally also add to that where, when, why and how ?

Ask Christopher Columbus, or any other early explorer. Space is no different.

Money, money, money, blah, blah. That's another problem with the world today, the requirement for money and the lack of it. The cause of everyone's problems, from governments all the way down to my own problems. Kind of wish it didn't exist.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Isn't NASA tinkering with the idea of a MAGLEV launched orbiter?

 

[terminator363]

They need to bring back the N-1 rocket!

 

[ExigeEvan]

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the shuttle is old and needs to move on. What I have a problem with is reverting back to 60's designs. The shuttle was a giant leap forward in space travel design, and now we're taking a giant leap backwards. 👎

The shuttle was a leap forward in space travel design, not technology. Don't make that mistake in confusing the two.

 

[Sharky.]

Do you not consider the Shuttle an advancement in spaceflight technology?

 

[David]

I'm hoping that I'll have a few free minutes at work to watch the launch today.

Don't forget! 11:26am EST

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/

 

[daan]

I'm going to try and watch it on Google earth.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/shuttle_google_earth.html

 

[FoolKiller]

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the shuttle is old and needs to move on. What I have a problem with is reverting back to 60's designs. The shuttle was a giant leap forward in space travel design, and now we're taking a giant leap backwards. 👎

Do not look at a rocket and capsule and assume because the visual appearance is similar that they are the same as the 60s. To reiterate, we are not reverting to anything. Technology is hugely different. The computers in the pods from the 60s can fit in a wristwatch today. A capsule today is quite literally a floating lab. As technology becomes more compact the necessity of something like a shuttle is reduced.

I mean, what do you want? A next generation shuttle? Why, when it can all be done with capsules and rockets now? Aesthetics mean jack in space. It it doesn't have to have a safe re-entry physical design should be 100% based utility. If a safe entry is required, particularly for human life, re-entry safety is the primary design element. A capsule design is ideal for that.

To go farther than the moon you will need a staging point. This staging point will have a larger craft that was most likely assembled in orbit, as ISS was. Staging points that we currently have at our disposal are the ISS and possibly the moon. Staging points and an interplanetary craft require parts flown up individually. The safest (most important) and most efficient way to do that is with rockets.


A love for the shuttle is fully understandable. I went to Space Camp. I stood beneath the Pathfinder on display in Huntsville, and I participated in a simulated shuttle mission. It will be sad to see it go.

Similarly, I understand feeling manned missions should be top priority. I can look at satellite pictures all day, but a picture of the Grand Canyon and looking at it with your own eyes are two very different things. But it is extremely important to know where we are going first. Columbus didn't set out to find new land. He set out to find a new trade route with the East that didn't involve going through the Middle East. He wasn't prepared for the journey he wound up taking and men died. Even intended explorations resulted in deaths due to the unknown. Today we have the ability to see where we are going and be prepared. Unmanned missions are a necessity for manned missions.

Before we can explore more we must continue these unmanned missions. I want to know what space is like, I want to see another world up close and in person, but I know that cannot be done.

 

[Sharky.]

There she goes, successful launch. See you on the other side, Atlantis.

 

[Robin]

Apparently the ISS is over New Zealand right now, so maybe you can see them meet up

Was a great launch, watching all the preparations for the last few hours was really interesting. Love the sound when the engines ignite.

 

[Joey D]

Watching the launch it just shows how much power the shuttle has. I was seriously in awe of it all.

 

[E28]

Yep, just saw her launch!

Google earth says they're doing about Mach 10 at the moment.
EDIT: Mach 14...

 

[Sharky.]

15,000mph, four miles per second at the moment

The numbers are mindblowing.

 

[Danoff]

Yea, they really are. Rocket launches are very cool... and shuttle certainly is one of the coolest. But keep in mind that getting anything into orbit (whether it's shuttle or sputnik) requires mindblowing numbers.

 

[Omnis]

I was going to drive up to see the launch this morning. Nobody else wanted to go, and then the news of the shuttle delay came out. So I stayed home. Do I regret it? Somewhat. Glad to see it made it up without incident.